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Pen & Paper Roleplaying Central => Pen and Paper Roleplaying Games (RPGs) Discussion => Topic started by: Zachary The First on April 19, 2006, 08:33:50 PM

Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Zachary The First on April 19, 2006, 08:33:50 PM
If you're a fan or in any way care about Palladium, you'll want to check this out (http://forums.palladium-megaverse.com/viewtopic.php?t=57048&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=0) and possibly step up to help out. For the anti-PB crowd, please try to remember even if it isn't your cup of tea, it is for a lot of folks, and it also represents the possibility of unemployment for some folks, so be kind.

EDIT:  My site entry (http://www.rpgblog.org/rpg_blog/2006/04/a_plea_for_pall.html) on same, for those interested.
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Knightsky on April 19, 2006, 10:33:30 PM
Ouch.  Although I really haven't been a fan of Palladium's stuff for several years now, I still hope they manage to rally and pull through this right spot.
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Zalmoxis on April 19, 2006, 10:54:42 PM
Three things...

1. I had no idea Palladium was even still around! I hope they can make it.
2. Palladium produced one of the most useful gaming products ever, that big book on Arms and Armor, and for that they will always have my respect.
3. Knighsky's song of the moment, "Breakdown" by Alan Parsons, is a kickass song from a kickass album. Now I'm playing it too.:bow:
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: gleichman on April 19, 2006, 11:32:11 PM
I'd like to join in wishing them a recovery from their crisis. And I hope there is always a place in the world for an old school game company like them.
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Basara_549 on April 20, 2006, 01:06:19 AM
The Palladium Weapons and armor series (http://www.palladiumbooks.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=W410)

The original version of these books were Palladium's first products, during the early 80s (prior to the printing of the 1E Unearthed Arcana, and its "nomenclature of pole-arms" appendix). Most of the non-gun books were, at one time, consolidated into a single perfect-bound book like the CoCW (the top book on the catalogue page), but were in recent years split back into the smaller books with some modifications.

The Palladium Fantasy RPG was published in 1984, by that time only showing its use of a D20 for strike rolls and having a "Palladin" character class to show its roots in a late-70s, VERY-home-rules, variant of what started as a OD&D game in Detroit. One interesting aspect was its inclusion of a skill/action-based experience point gain system, that seemed to be the inspiration for the AD&D 2E optional experience system from the DMG. It also featured a system to choose a second character class and (unlike later Palladium products, or D&D prior to 3E) the ability to switch between classes for advancement. Its set of monsters (And playable races) was far different than its D&D contemporaries, and, again, it took 3E to match it in terms of playability of "non-standard" races. The RPG was updated to the standard Palladium SDC+HP (analogous in many ways to Champions' division of health points) in the 90s, after initially having only hit points. If you really want to throw your 3E players a curve, get one of the versions of the PFRPG's "Monsters and Animals" book, and convert some of the more bizarre creatures into 3.5 stat blocks (just don't put the conversions on the web - Palladium is a bit overprotective of their copyrights). The Zavor would probably drive any D&D party into spastic fits.
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: mearls on April 20, 2006, 03:59:54 AM
This really sucks. Palladium has long been a good example of a company that does a just makes cool stuff, hipsterism and "cutting edge" be damned.

I had way too much fun with the TMNT RPG back in the day.
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Zachary The First on April 20, 2006, 07:21:21 AM
Quote from: mearls
This really sucks. Palladium has long been a good example of a company that does a just makes cool stuff, hipsterism and "cutting edge" be damned.

I had way too much fun with the TMNT RPG back in the day.

Damned right.  But it also has legions of fans willing to step up to the plate and try to right the ship.  We aren't quite through yet.

And yeah, the Weapon Compendiums (http://www.palladiumbooks.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=W410) have been crazy useful.
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: David R on April 20, 2006, 08:00:30 AM
I hope they recover. For as long as i have been gaming it seems like Palladium has been around.

I really dig their Adventures in the Northern Wilderness sourcebook. One of the most interesting and useful books in my collection - and i dont even used their system. I have always found something for me in their product list and hope this trend will continue.

 I hope they recover form this.

Regards,
David R.
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Knightsky on April 20, 2006, 08:15:09 AM
Quote from: Zalmoxis
Knighsky's song of the moment, "Breakdown" by Alan Parsons, is a kickass song from a kickass album. Now I'm playing it too.:bow:
:) :) :)
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: kanegrundar on April 20, 2006, 09:53:30 AM
Wow.  That sucks.  Since I first started gaming, the Rifts setting has been a constant source of inspiration for my games.  Even if I don't really like the man that much, I wish KS and the rest of the folks at Palladium the best.
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Zalmoxis on April 20, 2006, 10:16:19 AM
I was referring to this Palladium book specifically...

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/091621138X/002-1505668-7742439?v=glance&n=283155
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Cyberzombie on April 20, 2006, 10:32:55 AM
Quote from: Zalmoxis
I was referring to this Palladium book specifically...

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/091621138X/002-1505668-7742439?v=glance&n=283155
My friend Tetsubo bought that for me as a birthday present.  One of the nicer gifts I've ever gotten, really.  :)  I had an older, comic book sized book of theirs that had many of the weapons in it, but the armour section was totally new (and cool) to me.  I actually understood how armour is constructed after that.  :)

Rifts sucks ass, but they've done so many other cool things that this really sucks.  :(
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Nicephorus on April 20, 2006, 10:34:51 AM
Kevin Siembieda: "Suffice it to say that betrayal of trust, theft, and embezzlement has inflicted what we estimate to be $850,000 to 1.3 million dollars in damages to Palladium."

Does anyone have any clue what this is about?

By the way, Kevin Siembieda shares the same initials as King Stannis.  Coincidence or Not?
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Cyberzombie on April 20, 2006, 10:43:26 AM
Quote from: Nicephorus
By the way, Kevin Siembieda shares the same initials as King Stannis.  Coincidence or Not?


Dun dun dun!!!!  ~que ominous, Therimin-based music~

Quote from: Nicephorus
Kevin Siembieda: "Suffice it to say that betrayal of trust, theft, and embezzlement has inflicted what we estimate to be $850,000 to 1.3 million dollars in damages to Palladium."

Does anyone have any clue what this is about?


Not knowing any of the players other than Kevin, I can't say exactly, but clearly one of the people who runs Palladium stole serious $$$.  Since my employer is STILL building a case against an employee who emezzled money back in 2004, I can see how Palladium would just write off the money as lost and assume they will get no recompense in time to save the company (if they get any ever).

In other words, they really are as screwed as they are saying.
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: ColonelHardisson on April 20, 2006, 11:28:04 AM
Quote from: Zalmoxis
I was referring to this Palladium book specifically...

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/091621138X/002-1505668-7742439?v=glance&n=283155


That's a great book. I've had it for years. One of the best references of its kind.
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Yamo on April 20, 2006, 05:42:12 PM
Might as well repost from Pundit's blog:

"Palladium Books" has been, for years now, really nothing more than the glorified musty den of a single crazy, belligerrent hack.

If any of his intellectual property is worth saving, another company will buy it off him after he's bankrupt.

The only way I'd donate $50 is if it would serve sink Siembieda faster. Oh, wait. I can do that! By spending it on a competent RPG product instead of his doodles.

Let him leave a void that a superior outfit can fill.
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Lawbag on April 20, 2006, 05:51:37 PM
IF PALLADIUM ARE NOW GOING TO BE DOING THIS:

Release the stockpile of exciting new sourcebooks and products created by Palladium’s unbelievable crew of talented freelance writers and artists.

Palladium can release new RPGs and publish more products for ALL its game lines, hopefully boosting overall sales and making Palladium strong again.

Palladium can reprint key titles.

Palladium can expand vital advertising.

Palladium can keep doing the X-Mas Grab Bag that makes Christmas that much brighter for so many people.

THEN WHAT THE FUCK HAVE THEY BEEN DOING OVER THE LAST XX YEARS?
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: obryn on April 20, 2006, 06:25:18 PM
Quote from: Lawbag
THEN WHAT THE FUCK HAVE THEY BEEN DOING OVER THE LAST XX YEARS?

Apparently, getting close to a million dollars stolen after doing much of that.

Dickhead.

-O
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Yamo on April 20, 2006, 06:31:51 PM
Quote from: obryn
Apparently, getting close to a million dollars stolen after doing much of that.

Dickhead.

-O


And alienating all his most talented freelancers.

And threatening to sue his own fans left and right.

And refusing to fix decades-old typos.

And denying clamor for fixed rules.

And instead of focusing on fixing the above problems, zeroing-in on lamebrained, pie-in-the-sky projects like a movie that never even left the writing stage and a handheld game on a system that any twelve year-old kid could have told him had no future.

Oh, and apparently not seeing to proper insurance arrangements that could have protected his assets in the case of theft or other disaster.

The man is indefensible and deserves his newfound failure 100%, but thanks for playing.
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Guest (Deleted) on April 20, 2006, 09:08:35 PM
Ah, my favorite pet peeve - the threadcrap.
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Hreidmar on April 20, 2006, 09:13:18 PM
Quote from: Pooka
Ah, my favorite pet peeve - the threadcrap.


Hmmm...I see that you didn't notice his new title before you changed it.  Perhaps I was being to subtle.  :)
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Guest (Deleted) on April 20, 2006, 09:16:22 PM
Quote from: Hreidmar
Hmmm...I see that you didn't notice his new title before you changed it.  Perhaps I was being to subtle.  :)
I noticed it, but yes you were being too subtle. :heh:
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Lisa Nadazdy on April 20, 2006, 10:08:47 PM
Hey, Yamo...  I think you got something lodged in your mouth.  Could it be.... your foot? :heh:
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Yamo on April 20, 2006, 10:18:05 PM
"Jack Ass?"

I appreciate the new honorific, but even a jackass knows that jackass is rendered "jackass." Looks like Kevvie isn't the only one who could use a good editor.

If anybody can find so much as a single chink in the armor of the argument that Siembieda caused all of his own troubles and should live with the consequences of his actions and choices, feel free to point it out.
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Guest (Deleted) on April 20, 2006, 10:26:26 PM
Peeve #2 - Spelling Nazis.  I hear you get a special prize for strike 3.
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Lisa Nadazdy on April 20, 2006, 10:28:59 PM
Quote from: Yamo
"Jack Ass?"

I appreciate the new honorific, but even a jackass knows that jackass is rendered "jackass." Looks like Kevvie isn't the only one who could use a good editor.

If anybody can find so much as a single chink in the armor of the argument that Siembieda caused all of his own troubles and should live with the consequences of his actions and choices, feel free to point it out.


I'd quit the field of battle while you're ahead, if I were you.  Well, if not ahead, at least an ass. :heh:
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Guest (Deleted) on April 20, 2006, 10:36:38 PM
Put the axe away lisa - I'm not going to ban him. There are alternatives. :heh:
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Andvari on April 21, 2006, 02:55:48 AM
Quote from: Fatbeard
If anybody can find so much as a single chink in the armor of the argument that Siembieda caused all of his own troubles and should live with the consequences of his actions and choices, feel free to point it out.

How about the fact that your arguments are irrelevant due the fact that there are some here who are truly sorry to see this happen? How about the fact that every time a major RPG company disappears, the entire industry takes a hit? But hey, who am I to attempt to deter your threadcrapping? You aren't on my shitlist yet, but I'm not the one you need to worry about. :heh:
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Roudi on April 21, 2006, 09:25:38 AM
Funny thing; I think Yamo brings up some legitimate criticisms of Paaladium, and the only retort offered against his assertions have been personal insults hurled at Yamo himself.  Pretty low form, I think.

I haven't heard enough good stories (and heard plenty of credible bad ones) to desire to help Palladium out.  Who knows?  This might be karma.

Although, I do get a weird sort of vibe from Seimbeida's "call for help."  Ever seen those stores that have a "going out of business sale," once a year, every year?  Who never actually seem to go out of business?  Does anyone else get that feeling from this too?
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: kanegrundar on April 21, 2006, 09:29:00 AM
I think Palladium is in trouble, but the events surrounding the turmoil leave me doubting somewhat.  I guess we'll know for sure in the next month or two if Palladium is still open even if they didn't get enough people to buy the prints.
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Nicephorus on April 21, 2006, 10:07:03 AM
Hints that I've gotten elsewhere (especially Websnark) imply that the thievery in question is mostly of physical goods over several years, such as art and products, most likely by disgruntled employees and freelancers.  The estimated value may be quite a ways off.

Theoretical question (because I see this argument bandied about so much for all kinds of things):  Does every loss of a game publisher really hurt the industry as a whole?  If a company is so lousy that they make the industry look bad, then the loss improves the industy's public face (I'm not stating the Palladium is this bad because I haven't been following them.  This is a theoretical argument).  Several fans of a company may mourn the loss, but it may or may not have a financial effect on other companies.

In Palladium's case, I doubt that the loss of the company would have any measurable effect on other publishers.  Rifts is an island on the other side of the planet; there are lots of people who play Rifts and nothing else, and lots of people who have either never played Rifts or who would never buy another Rifts book whether or not the company is around.  Unlike most other rpgs, there doesn't seem to be much overlap between Rifts players and players of other games.
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Technicolor Dreamcoat on April 21, 2006, 10:13:21 AM
I don't think the loss of quite a few of the d20-boom companies hurt rpgs as a whole.

It's different when there's a large consumer base and no ready substitute, though. I don't know how big Palladium is, or how different its rules/settings are to existing lines, but the d20 companies weren't missed as you could simply buy from other d20 companies.
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Roudi on April 21, 2006, 10:34:07 AM
Quote from: Nicephorus
Does every loss of a game publisher really hurt the industry as a whole?

That really depends on whether or not you'd consider this mishmash of publishers, freelancers, and niche consumers to be an "industry."  I'm with Gary Gygax on this one... calling this an "industry" gives everything a lot of dignity that it doesn't necessarily deserve.

Will the loss of Palladium affect other RPG publishers?  Maybe.  It might open wide a few new niche markets that publishers had stayed out of thanks to Palladium.  Palladium books and games will still exist and still circulate, so there's no real basis for arguments that any games will die or go under as a result of Palladium's troubles.  This will certainly affect people; I think that those who stand to lose their jobs to this situation constitute the only real tragedy here.

I should probably let Kevin know that Wendy's (http://www.wendys.com) is hiring.  That's the best help I can really provide the man.
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Guest (Deleted) on April 21, 2006, 11:17:13 AM
Quote from: Roudi
Funny thing; I think Yamo brings up some legitimate criticisms of Paaladium, and the only retort offered against his assertions have been personal insults hurled at Yamo himself.  Pretty low form, I think.

I haven't heard enough good stories (and heard plenty of credible bad ones) to desire to help Palladium out.  Who knows?  This might be karma.

Although, I do get a weird sort of vibe from Seimbeida's "call for help."  Ever seen those stores that have a "going out of business sale," once a year, every year?  Who never actually seem to go out of business?  Does anyone else get that feeling from this too?
All I really would prefer is the new thread rather than the new post button be pressed. If in doubt start a new thread - threads can always be merged. Once a threadcrap occurs the tenor of a thread can turn in a bad way and be unrectifiable.

Has Palladium made bad decisions? I think so, but if I want to discuss them I'll create another thread for them.

Does this mean that you shouldn't ever voice dissent in a thread? No. There's a world of difference though between "This isn't surprising" then stating why and "Yoo Hoo - they're going bankrupt." One invites discussion, the other is just being hurtful. Like it or not gamers tend to be somewhat protective of the game systems they use and support, and an insult leveled at the game is percieved as an insult at the gamer.  While the occasional flamewar skirmish or even a full borne SWINE war can be fun from time to time, if every thread becomes a flame war then it gets old.

Yamo isn't banned - he's just been dubbed "Jack Ass" then "Dumb Ass" for correcting my spelling. He'll have to put up with that label for a week or so until it wears off then he can go back to a normal avatar.

Remember, you can say what you like concerning any issue without being banned. Just remember that there may be consequences for what you say. -- other users calling you on your shit, or moderators giving you a jack ass avatar for a week.

Freedom goes hand in hand with responsibility.
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: kanegrundar on April 21, 2006, 11:17:36 AM
Palladium has become such a fringe game anymore that I can't see the loss as really detrimental to RPG's as a whole with WotC, WW, SJG, GR, and the various D20 companies (that  seem to be moving to more sustainable OGL product lines) still kicking and taking up MUCH more shelfspace and are much more viable lines (in the sense of reliable release schedules).  I really doubt that the limited availbility in many areas of the Palladium lines are going to put a serious hurt on the RPG industry.  Now in the sense of players that may have been interested only in what Palladium had to offer that's a loss, since they may no longer go into shops and be able to talk to new players there and get them into RPG's.  It's just sad that an old company has been brought down so low.
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Guest (Deleted) on April 21, 2006, 11:24:19 AM
If any company should have joined the d20 movement IMO it was Palladium. Their root system is very similar to d20 in many ways whether the supporters will admit it or not. However Mr. Siembieda chose to swim against the tide. I mean, at the very least he could have done what White Wolf did and create an imprint that deals with d20. I still would be more open to trying Rifts in a d20 modern form than on it's own system because I simply don't want to learn a new system (much to Basara's chagrin).
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Phantom Stranger on April 21, 2006, 11:28:11 AM
So I guess Palladium got hit with a Mega Damage weapon......:heh:
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Guest (Deleted) on April 21, 2006, 11:39:42 AM
Bad pun. No cookie.
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Yamo on April 21, 2006, 11:52:14 AM
Quote
There's a world of difference though between "This isn't surprising" then stating why and "Yoo Hoo - they're going bankrupt." One invites discussion, the other is just being hurtful.


So discuss one sentiment and ignore or refute the other. It's what I do.

I'd simply prefer that Palladium Books exit the marketplace at this time and relinguish its IP to a more successful company that can deliver a product worthy of said IP. I'll be happy when this transpires.

I also dislike KS. As much as it's possible to dislike someone based on an online persona, anyway. I have no pity for him. If Palladium Books had other permanent employees that I didn't dislike, I probably would feel pity for them, but as far as I know, it's a one man show.

If these sentiments cross some kind of personal line for you and you find them hurtful, that's fine. If you want to refute them, that's fine.
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: gleichman on April 21, 2006, 12:00:45 PM
Oh my.

This is a little like watching someone slam his head into a wall to get to the other side when he was just shown an open door...

Quote from: Pooka

All I really would prefer is the new thread rather than the new post button be pressed.
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Yamo on April 21, 2006, 12:04:16 PM
Quote
Like it or not gamers tend to be somewhat protective of the game systems they use and support, and an insult leveled at the game is percieved as an insult at the gamer.


Another note: Gamers may do this, but mature gamers do not. Hobbies aren't religion. If people who get crazy angry when their religious beliefs are questioned are extremists, people who get angry when their mere hobbies are questioned are buffoons.

Perhaps my mistake is not tailoring my posts to the sensibilities of people who read an negative opinion about a fantasy make-believe game and go into paroxysms  of quivering, impotent rage? God, how could I write all my posts with people like that in mind and still look at myself in the mirror?

Quote
He'll have to put up with that label for a week or so until it wears off then he can go back to a normal avatar.


Actually, I think I'll keep this one. :)
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Yamo on April 21, 2006, 12:05:59 PM
Quote from: gleichman
Oh my.

This is a little like watching someone slam his head into a wall to get to the other side when he was just shown an open door...


It's too late now on my end. If they mods want my posts in a new thread, that's within their power to do.
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Acinonyx on April 21, 2006, 12:34:29 PM
Quote from: Pooka
If any company should have joined the d20 movement IMO it was Palladium. Their root system is very similar to d20 in many ways whether the supporters will admit it or not. However Mr. Siembieda chose to swim against the tide. I mean, at the very least he could have done what White Wolf did and create an imprint that deals with d20. I still would be more open to trying Rifts in a d20 modern form than on it's own system because I simply don't want to learn a new system (much to Basara's chagrin).
I would have loved to see a D20 Rifts books. Sometimes you just want to blow shit up with a big ass robot and a few D100s.
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Nicephorus on April 21, 2006, 01:20:55 PM
Quote from: Acinonyx
I would have loved to see a D20 Rifts books. Sometimes you just want to blow shit up with a big ass robot and a few D100s.

Somewhere, I think I have a fan made Rifts D20 rulebook pdf that looked reasonable based a quick glance.  Better than the Rifts rules anyway.
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: kanegrundar on April 21, 2006, 01:58:51 PM
Quote from: Nicephorus
Somewhere, I think I have a fan made Rifts D20 rulebook pdf that looked reasonable based a quick glance.  Better than the Rifts rules anyway.
I've found a couple D20 conversions that were OK, but nothing that was all that great.  I got to the point that I just wrote stuff from the ground up and said to hell with a straight conversion in lieu of just trying to get the feel right.
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Cyclotron on April 21, 2006, 02:11:54 PM
Quote from: Acinonyx
I would have loved to see a D20 Rifts books.

Ditto, for my part...

At the moment, the more I play Spycraft 2.0, the more I think, "This game would be perfect for a D20 RIFTS conversion...  If only Siembieda would let them."
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Guest (Deleted) on April 21, 2006, 02:27:13 PM
Quote from: Yamo
It's too late now on my end. If they mods want my posts in a new thread, that's within their power to do.
Threads already derailed - no point in trying to clean up the mess.
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Zalmoxis on April 21, 2006, 03:42:35 PM
Quote from: Acinonyx
I would have loved to see a D20 Rifts books. Sometimes you just want to blow shit up with a big ass robot and a few D100s.


I agree with this. RIFTS is a wonderful setting with crappy rules. D20 would be great for it.
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Basara_549 on April 23, 2006, 01:56:44 PM
Hmmm.

After a few days listening to the loose nuts on the ground spew their mistruths, I thought I'd clarify a few things.

First of all, someone referenced Kevin's supposed behavior on the net. NANI???? He's not even HAD any sort of personal net presence for most of the last 10-12 years, after some fanatics started attacking him online over the WotC issue (see below). Instead, at various times, Maryann (his now-ex wife, and still a good friend of his), Wayne Smith, and one or two other employees handled ALL online presence for the company. In fact, only in THE LAST THREE TO SIX MONTHS has he even started posting on Palladium's forums, mostly due to the issues concerning the employee theft. In fact, he never even had an actively-used e-mail address since those early 90s events, until he HAD to have one, to sell what wasn't stolen from the company vault, of his private animation cel and toy collections (most of the really valuable stuff got stolen, prior to then). If you ran into someone online claiming to be Kevin in 1995-2005 it's 99.9% sure IT WASN'T HIM.

Most of the "Palladium Bashing" results from reports by disgruntled persons AFTER their dismissal. Having written for the company myself, I know what really happened in some of the cases. I can't be sure which line of BS you're using for your basis, so I'll detail the ones I know.

1. In the case of one of their more famous early artists, he kept missing a deadline, giving excuses that later turned out to be not true. It is also suspected (by fans and Palladium bashers alike) that he plagiarized a number of his mech designs he drew for Rifts from anime art books, though no one has said if that had any bearing in his departure from Palladium. After leaving the company, he and another person formerly associated with the company printed an RPG that used a blatant copy of Palladium's system, with the only difference being the copyrighted term names being changed - the mechanics were Palladium's "with the serial numbers filed off". It cost a company they was working with its existance. The artist, according to a Ral Partha sculptor I knew, was later fired from FASA for blatant copying of mech body parts from a Gundam art book, in a period where FASA had ordered that no anime reference books be kept in work spaces (including home offices), due to the furor over the anime-based designed they'd unwittingly bought a bogus usage contract for*.

1.a. (*a long story - up until the 3055 art book came out, everyone thought their contract was legit - it was only found out when the yearly payment for the Macross/Dougram/Crusher Joe designs came back "return to sender", and they went through HG & Palladium to try to find where to send their payments to. It was Playmates who sued FASA & vice-versa - Palladium specifically signed a waiver opting out of any part in the suits, except where they were called to testify - more bizarrely, even though both suits (one dismissed, the other settled) went in Playmates' favor (I've seen the rulings/settlement details), there are still Battletech fanatics that insist FASA won both suits and it was Palladium suing them - Jesus Christ on a crutch!)

2. The WotC/Palladium suit (pre-magic, involving a book of conversion systems for converting from one RPG to another) was more of a friendly/white knight suit than an attack. In fact, Maryann Siembieda was one of the first people to be given one of the promotional pre-Alpha Black Lotus cards - not something one would expect if they'd been really hostile. The settlement in the case removed the WotC product from the market, but little else - and it pre-empted a lawsuit from the Williams-era TSR, which was going to try to take WotC down outright (having already crippling out the original incarnation of Mayfair for daring to release the "Role-Aids" books, and about to similarly demolish GDW for Dangerous Journeys). the decision for Palladium pre-empted any more draconian measures from occuring, and saved WotC, so that they could prosper, and eventually do unto TSR what TSR wanted to do to them.

3. The conflict between GDW & Palladium was simply over letting Palladium have the chance to oversee articles that impacted their games (which would add 1-3 months additional time before the articles saw print - maybe more if licensed). Part of this dealt with licensing issues (with Harmony Gold in particular, if articles were Robotech-based - my own Robotech article got delayed a YEAR by HG, but you also had Mirage Studios and TMNT.) Some of the lesser problems GDW had in its last days were, in fact, over Star Wars and Star Trek articles from Challenge, that they published with permission of the RPG rights owners, but without oversight from Lucas or Paramount, respectively, but this aspect was overshadowed by the TSR 800-lb-gorilla lawsuit monkeys of that time period, and their attack on GDW.

4. One former Palladium writer with a fascination of munchkin tech/supernatural, exponentially escalating power creep, and (with other companies) the walking dead, repeatedly sent in a manuscript that kept getting sent back for revisions, after people complained about his previous 4 or 5 books for Rifts having too much power-creep (The CS, Triax and (later)Japan were supposed to be the highest tech, and the author had banana republics with superior technology to them). A typical exchange was a list of items that were too munchkin for the Rifts setting, that needed tweaking; the result of the rewrite typically was a slight power reduction for part of the list (but not sufficient for the request), while INCREASING power levels for other things on the list, and others not yet on it, to where the situation was still as bad, if not worse, than before (sort of like the negotiation process I see in some games of raising your initial sale price, after you feel insulted by the offer being made - "It will cost you 700 gold" - How about 100? - "It will cost you 750 gold"). Needless to say, it didn't work. After letting the book slide backward through the print queue for over a year, it ended up having a replacement written in-house.

4.a. Rumor (never commented on by staff, but by others - at least one of which is now one of the Palladium bashers) has it that one of the artists feature in this person's books got let go for some art issues - like passing off AND SELLING the same piece of art as two different things, for two different books' (one an exoskeleton for a sentient cetacean, the other as a spacecraft), and that his mechanical art was just too wanky, never really matching the writeup (if the writeup came first), or being too odd to actually  function on a battlefield, if the art came first. His character art was incredible though - but he practically abandoned drawing people by that point.

5. Another recent vocal complainer was let go after attempting to take Kevin's personal baby (the Fantasy game that started as a heavily home-ruled OD&D campaign in Detroit around 30 years ago) in a direction far different from Kevin's vision for it. And, as RPers, you all should know how GMs react to others trying to mess with their personal campaign setting.

6. As for payment issues, we do have the revelation of embezzling occuring within the company, and the fact that a number of the online orders mysteriously disappearing (or being diverted), apparently by the same person. Evidence seems to indicate the person was intercepting the orders, taking the payment for themselves, then mailing out the order by filling it with stock they'd already stolen from the warehouse (eliminating the record of the transaction in the process). One of the early parts of the investigation involved a query to persons that ordered the Palladium X-mas specials, about delayed/misplaced orders that ended up being shipped from outside Palladium's area of operations.

6.a. One of the things Palladium has always had in its contracts, and so did many other gaming companies, is that payment to an author only occurs if and when the book or article sees print. The persons I have heard the most vocal screams about non-payment from are ones who wanted payment for manuscripts never published, because of failure to comply to editor/publisher decisions and directives. The SAME types of contracts exist for the vast majority of fiction and non-fiction books outside the RPG market, yet one never hears any complaints about this from those writers - because THAT IS HOW THE INDUSTRY OF PUBLISHING WORKS. And, since RPG products tend to use proprietary information, they can't be shopped around to other publishers all that easily (hence the D20 OGL, to make it easier for such products to be done for that system, that aren't limited to one company - but, one can hardly write a book for, say, Freeport, and expect to shop it around if Freeport's owners reject it, without massive changes to genericize ALL the setting material. This is especially true for WotC-owned or licensed settings, though an OGL setting was used to illustrate it.)

6.b. I also remember that one of the D20 companies (was it Green Ronin?) also fell victim to employee theft/embezzling, and that there was one asswipe in the back of the ENnie awards pounding on the table screaming "PAY YOUR AUTHORS!!!" repeatedly - despite the fact that he was NOT one of those authors, just a "friend" of one, according to his comments. And, to PAY even one of those authors in full would have made the company insolvent, and kept any of the others from being paid - the company staying open, and getting more product into the pipeline to generate revenue, was the only way that the authors owed money had a prayer of being paid anything close to what they were owed.

What was it Kosh said about a three-edged sword?

You can hear anything you WANT to hear on the net. Compared to what I've heard from real people, including those on the OTHER side of these debates, I equate most of the net attacks on Palladium with the "Kentucky Fried Chicken changed its name to KFC because the birds are so gene-modified they don't count as chicken anymore" bullshit - because they have about the same level of factual basis, and similar origins, being from those with some sort of vendetta against the attacked.
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Zachary The First on April 23, 2006, 02:25:09 PM
As several individuals, including Maryann (the former Mrs. Siembieda) have also pointed out, in many cases, you're only hearing one side of the story--the anti-Palladium one. In several recent instances of former authors being rather vocal with their issues re: Palladium or Kevin Siembieda, keep in mind that it is simply that individual's interpretation how things went down. In several cases, Palladium will not refute these claims due to legal or personal considerations. Ask yourself this--how many times have you heard people, after they were fired or quit (sometimes in lieu of being fired) complain about their previous employer? Pretty damned common, isn't it?
 
If folks have personal experiences with PB or PB staff jerking them around, by all means, they should feel free to voice it. And others should feel free to remember that it is one side of things, and there are just as many positive testimonials for the defense (if you bother to look, and as evidenced by the fact there are a stable of regular employees, freelancers, and artists that have stood with the company for many years). Certainly Palladium has made some mistakes, but they or their founder are hardly the Great Satan some individuals and many adherents of a somewhat mauve-tinged site would have you believe.
 
EDIT: I should point out there are also several long-running fan sites. Palladium does not instantly throw out a "cease & desist" to anyone putting up a Rifts or Palladium Fantasy webpage. Instead, they have a set of guidelines they request these pages follow, especially in regards to posting or reprinting core elements or rules or conversions that the company feels might be trouble down the road. Hardly as wide-open as OGL, true, but sites like the Nexus Point (http://www.leylinenexuspoint.com/) and Editor's Wastebasket (http://www.mymegaverse.org/) continue to thrive, as well as the Palladium webrings (http://www.palladiumbooks.com/links/rings.html) links hosted on Palladium Books itself!
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Settembrini on April 23, 2006, 05:29:44 PM
OK, but there still is the big issue of Kevin denouncing manuscripts and then mining them for ideas, because he has to write it himself again over a weekend.

And the scheduling. lemuria anyone? Old Kingdom Mountains & Lowlands?

And the fact, that he is very hard to get to answer sometimes, lacking an eMail account.


Sure there is always two sides of the story, but the stuff Bill Coffin wrote is a lot more convincing, than some hysterical Kevin-writ in the next worldbook. I mean how many of my 50+ RIFTS books have that infamous "manuscript-sounded-exciting,-turned-out-shitty,-I-had-to-do-it-myself,-sorry for-five-year-delay" line
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Zachary The First on April 23, 2006, 05:45:50 PM
Quote from: Settembrini
OK, but there still is the big issue of Kevin denouncing manuscripts and then mining them for ideas, because he has to write it himself again over a weekend.
 
And the scheduling. lemuria anyone? Old Kingdom Mountains & Lowlands?
 
And the fact, that he is very hard to get to answer sometimes, lacking an eMail account.
 
 
Sure there is always two sides of the story, but the stuff Bill Coffin wrote is a lot more convincing, than some hysterical Kevin-writ in the next worldbook. I mean how many of my 50+ RIFTS books have that infamous "manuscript-sounded-exciting,-turned-out-shitty,-I-had-to-do-it-myself,-sorry for-five-year-delay" line

Hey, you will not find me arguing about the release schedule, though it's been surprisingly better as of late. However, to my knowledge, Kevin has never addressed the Coffin situation directly, and none of his oft..interesting...prefaces in their books has done so, either. I love Bill's work, and believe along with Wujick he's the best hired talent Palladiun's seen. But we don't really have any way of telling what's gone on, have we?
 
I been pretty close to Palladium over the years, and all I have to go on with any certainty is the way I've been personally treated, which has been nothing short of awesome. Yeah, I've got my issues with them, but I'm not about to let them die, and I sure as shit can't endorse that "they deserve it" stuff, especially when you're talking about the livelihoods of at least 7 or 8 other folks who AFAIK have never done a thing to offend any gamer.
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Settembrini on April 23, 2006, 07:15:39 PM
I´m with you that nothing is to be gained from bashing PB. But there still seems to be some truth in the criticism. And the stuff Kevin writes on real world stuff always sounds...off kilter and sometimes downright hysterical.

BTW, where is Kevin Long?
He defined the RIFTS look and feel for me. I wonder what he is doing right now?
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Zachary The First on April 23, 2006, 07:40:00 PM
Quote from: Settembrini
I´m with you that nothing is to be gained from bashing PB. But there still seems to be some truth in the criticism. And the stuff Kevin writes on real world stuff always sounds...off kilter and sometimes downright hysterical.

BTW, where is Kevin Long?
He defined the RIFTS look and feel for me. I wonder what he is doing right now?

Well, the last time I saw his art in a Rifts Book was in the Bionics Sourcebook, circa '02.  I'm pretty sure he did some more work for Shadowrun as well.

He was the lead artist on Quake 4, and is involed in software games, notably with Activision.  I think he's working for Raven Games now.
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: cnath.rm on April 23, 2006, 09:43:57 PM
Quote from: Settembrini
BTW, where is Kevin Long?
He defined the RIFTS look and feel for me. I wonder what he is doing right now?
 Kevin Long rocks, anyone have any idea on if he has a website?
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Zachary The First on April 24, 2006, 12:05:40 PM
Quote from: cnath.rm
Kevin Long rocks, anyone have any idea on if he has a website?

I haven't see a personal website, but he does indeed rock.  Aside from Ramon Perez, he's likely my favorite PB artist.
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Basara_549 on April 24, 2006, 02:25:46 PM
I'm stll waiting for proof of this so-called "mining". For that matter, most contracts for most major game companies indicate that any submission, printed or not, becomes property of the company (or, in some cases, the property of the owner of the property licensed for the game). If a project requires 95% rewrite, it would be hard for anyone to determine what, if any, compensation the original author might be due - especially if the basis for the plot within the manuscript came from (partially or completely) the publisher, or even previously presented books by the author FOR that publisher, that are already in print. It would be like Tom Clancy sueing Osama bin-Ladin for plagiarism of one of the Jack Ryan books (Debt of Honor, IIRC), for using Boeing aircraft on 9/11 to attack the US via ramming governmental buildings.

As for the products you mentioned -
Lemuria - a new author is finally working on a manuscript for it, actually.
The original author was NOT part of the writing staff of Palladium - his duties were editing and proofreading other people's work, and he volunteered to write the Lemuria book - only to find out that it wouldn't be as easy as he thought, and it got shelved after only getting the first draft about 20% done in over a year's work.

Old Kingdom Mountains & Old Kingdom Lowlands
Original manuscripts written for the First Edition of the Fantasy RPG. Would need major re-working to fix. In addition (I don't know how much the speaker was joking), one now-former Palladium staffer said that there was another delaying factor, in the form of a diminuative humanoid race with furry feet being added into the setting by the author, woven hard into the plot - a race which has never existed in the Palladium setting for obvious legal reasons. The person who said this has since denied this (and they have a reputation for pulling one's leg), but it leaves one to think, having not seen the manuscripts.

BtS
BtS books from the early 90s (FOUR of them) were proposed, but they were swamped by Rifts success (two authors were Palladium editors, the other author left the company) after they were announced.

New Robotech Books
Several were completed, and a couple other proposed, but had been sat on for a while, due to Harmony Gold telling Palladium not to release books until the (non-existent) new series was announced. Then, they were canceled as a result of the license not being renewed. Blame Harmony Gold, as they tied Palladium's hands. HG's requirements, BTW were:
1. licensing fees were to increase 100-200% for the original series.
2. Palladium would have had to buy a package that included both the original series AND Robotech 3000 rights, and pay the same amount for Robotech 3000 as the original series, despite Robotech 3000 had only a few seconds of CGI test footage done.
3. NO new material could be printed until Robotech 3000 can out, for EITHER license - but Palladium would still have to pay both license fees. (note that Robotech 3000 NEVER came out - hell, the THIRD proposed Robotech sequel project SINCE the cancellation of Robotech 3000 still hasn't come out, though it does have a completed short movie done - one that totally flies in the face of series continuity).
Now, how bad an idea did THIS seem? (if you want to see mismanagement, Harmony Gold is a lot better example of it than Palladium)

TMNT 2E
Palladium had it done. Mirage Studios WANTED it done. The distributors refused to order more than a total of 100 books BETWEEN ALL OF THEM. (that's compared to twice as many pre-orders from Palladium's online store). In other words, it was killed from lack of distributor interest.
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Settembrini on April 24, 2006, 03:04:07 PM
Well, I still am convinced that there are severe communication problems between Kevin and the Freelancers. Even Erik Wujik sort of writes an apology into Rifts China. Don´t get me wrong: I´m a fan!
But I´m not so awestruck as to not see clearly the hysterical and egocentric way of Kevin running his business. Why do so many freelancers suck at doing what he wants? Just look at the 50+ Sourcebooks and reead the first page. This is some serious stuff going on! Why is it that only Kevin really knows what Kevin wants for a given Supplement? Not communicating and not reading the manuscript is the easiest answer, isn´t it?

I find Coffin´s line of argumentation very plausible. Especially as he also repeatedly says that Kevin can be one of the nicest guys on earth to talk to.
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Zachary The First on April 24, 2006, 03:28:07 PM
Quote from: Settembrini
Well, I still am convinced that there are severe communication problems between Kevin and the Freelancers. Even Erik Wujik sort of writes an apology into Rifts China. Don´t get me wrong: I´m a fan!
But I´m not so awestruck as to not see clearly the hysterical and egocentric way of Kevin running his business. Why do so many freelancers suck at doing what he wants? Just look at the 50+ Sourcebooks and reead the first page. This is some serious stuff going on! Why is it that only Kevin really knows what Kevin wants for a given Supplement? Not communicating and not reading the manuscript is the easiest answer, isn´t it?
 
I find Coffin´s line of argumentation very plausible. Especially as he also repeatedly says that Kevin can be one of the nicest guys on earth to talk to.

You know, I brought this same question up to 2 different freelancers of my aquaintance, both of whom have had books published with Palladium. Both of them gave me the exact same line: When Kev reviewed their work, he was pretty damned frank with them. They had heard about how it had been before, and were a trifle apprehensive when it came to that final review. Surprisingly, however, though he was pretty open about what he didn't like, he also was encouraging, and their books sailed on without (much) issue. They said he was tough, but all in all, fair. Keep in mind these are both guys who were only relatively recently published, so you can take from that what you will. I do know there are a lot of books where Kev talks about having to throw in some additions or rewrite stuff, and it can get a little irksome over time, but my current aquaintances who write or have written for him have been pretty straightforward about the whole business, and while I'm sure he'd tear my writing apart like a pair of cheap panties, it sounds like he's perhaps mellowed somewhat in his freelancer treatment. I guess I'll have to see what note is put in the front of the next Rifts releases. :heh:
 
And I doubt we'll ever hear the other side of the Coffin story. I'm sorry he's gone, to be sure (his work on Palladium Fantasy remains my favorite of anything done on that line), but I don't really care to see him throwing punches at guy not defending himself for personal/legal considerations what, 3 years after the fact? In any case, none of it is enough to outweigh the history of sterling personal experiences I've had with Palladium and Kevin Siembieda both in person and online, as a fan and as just plain folks.
 
That all said, there things KS does I certainly disagree with, sometimes vehemently. I won't ignore their mistakes, but see above.
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Settembrini on April 24, 2006, 05:07:36 PM
@Zach: My offer for the charity is still up.
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Zachary The First on April 24, 2006, 05:33:41 PM
Quote from: Settembrini
@Zach: My offer for the charity is still up.

Oh, I noticed (I have to use Babelfish for your site, but read it I do), and I'm certain its appreciated.  I think we can both agree that there are many valid criticisms to be made re: Palladium, but there is also a lot of good to be had.  Sound fair?
 
Incidentally, till this happened, I didn't know you played Rifts!  Have you checked out Arzno or the Dinosaur Swamp books yet?  Some of the better-quality stuff to have been seen in recent years.
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Settembrini on April 24, 2006, 08:19:06 PM
No. Dinosaurs is one thing that doesn´t tingle any sense of adventure. And the cover of Arzno..something just wasn´t right. i wil buy them sometime for completeness. I´m waiting for Triax 2...
Wow, You really go to the length of reading my blog? I will check out what babelfish makes out of it...
@Pall support plea: That was mostly laughed off in Germany, even though someone close to PB is very vocal about it (Nelly, the german princess, if you happen to know her...)
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Zachary The First on April 24, 2006, 09:25:59 PM
Quote from: Settembrini
No. Dinosaurs is one thing that doesn´t tingle any sense of adventure. And the cover of Arzno..something just wasn´t right. i wil buy them sometime for completeness. I´m waiting for Triax 2...
Wow, You really go to the length of reading my blog? I will check out what babelfish makes out of it...
@Pall support plea: That was mostly laughed off in Germany, even though someone close to PB is very vocal about it (Nelly, the german princess, if you happen to know her...)

Nelly is a German Princess.  One of the best things about the Palladium boards, to boot.  She is all sorts of awesome.

EDIT:  You'll probably get a laugh out of Babelfish.  It dices it up pretty good.
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Nelly on April 25, 2006, 08:38:38 AM

The world is indeed a little place huh? I know Settembrini from a German Board called GROFAFO.

Wow Zach, thank you for the compliment :hug:, you know there are a lot of people that wouldn't say that over here ;)

Anyway, I do my best in spreading the word for Pallyboard, it isn't just a company for the both of us, huh? :)
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Zachary The First on April 25, 2006, 08:51:59 AM
Quote from: Nelly

The world is indeed a little place huh? I know Settembrini from a German Board called GROFAFO.

Wow Zach, thank you for the compliment :hug:, you know there are a lot of people that wouldn't say that over here ;)

Anyway, I do my best in spreading the word for Pallyboard, it isn't just a company for the both of us, huh? :)

As I live & breathe!  Nelly!  Welcome!  And the people who wouldn't say that over there are clearly deranged. :snotty:
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Nelly on April 25, 2006, 09:17:41 AM
Quote from: Zachary The First
As I live & breathe!  Nelly!  Welcome!  And the people who wouldn't say that over there are clearly deranged. :snotty:

Hahahaha well, naw they are just on a different point of view.

But aren't we all brainwashed? ;)

I am part of the Palladium Crew for almost 4 years and there never was something similiar to this "Family". Those people stand up for each other and I can call every single of the Standard Sound Off Crew Taffy, Daniel, Debi, Shots, Andy, Matt, Chico, you, and a couple of others, true friends. I had a great time with Krome, lived with Debi for several months, know her son Andy very well, know Mattbaby, Shots and Shady personally. I'd go through fire for them and they went through it for me.

Palladium is not just a company, and it'll never be just a company, let them call us stupid we know what Palladium truly is about. ;)

I thought a couple of times that there could be a book written of the people of Sound Off :D
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Gunhilda on April 25, 2006, 10:39:36 AM
Interesting!  We're actually getting some serious non-d20 action going on here, which is great.  Historically, all we've had on Nutkinland *is* d20 (and that mostly D&D), and you can pretty quickly run through everything you want to talk about when you're only talking about one game.

Welcome, Nelly!  You obviously have some sort of fame in Palladium circles.  So what is your claim to fame?
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Zachary The First on April 25, 2006, 10:47:37 AM
Quote from: Gunhilda
Interesting!  We're actually getting some serious non-d20 action going on here, which is great.  Historically, all we've had on Nutkinland *is* d20 (and that mostly D&D), and you can pretty quickly run through everything you want to talk about when you're only talking about one game.

Welcome, Nelly!  You obviously have some sort of fame in Palladium circles.  So what is your claim to fame?

Hey, I love talking about different systems.  Diversity stirs the pot.

I'll let Nelly answer for herself on her Palladium celebrity, but "German Princess" about covers it. :bow:
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Settembrini on April 25, 2006, 10:52:09 AM
Quote
Wow Zach, thank you for the compliment :hug:, you know there are a lot of people that wouldn't say that over here

That´s a cultural thing. We are quite grumpy and keep to ourselves. Differences in culture is also why the Pally plea was laughed off or met puzzled faces. Such "charity drives" are comletely unknown here.
And Rifts is a non-entity in Germany. Most don´t even know it.
 
@Nelly don´t forget most people don´t have personal experiences with PB. I for one really like their books, and can thus judge them only on their books.
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: kanegrundar on April 25, 2006, 10:57:09 AM
I just checked the Palladium boards to see how things are going.  Well, they've raised $100K at the last update.  Wow.  I'm honestly surprised at that.  It looks like Palladium may stay open after all.  Although I have to wonder for how much longer?  How many times will KS be able to go back to the well so to speak when the company is circling the drain?  Unless he wisens up on the way he does business, it will circle the drain again.
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Cyberzombie on April 25, 2006, 11:36:43 AM
Quote from: kanegrundar
How many times will KS be able to go back to the well so to speak when the company is circling the drain.  Unless he wisens up on the way he does business, it will circle the drain again.


Now unlike most of the comments in this thread, that is a valid criticism.  (At least it soudns valid given that all the data I'm operating on comes from this thread and the first post of the linked thread.)  This might cover their butts *right now*, but they need to do something major and systematic if they don't want to go out of business in another couple of months.
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: kanegrundar on April 25, 2006, 11:41:25 AM
Quote from: Cyberzombie
Now unlike most of the comments in this thread, that is a valid criticism.  (At least it soudns valid given that all the data I'm operating on comes from this thread and the first post of the linked thread.)  This might cover their butts *right now*, but they need to do something major and systematic if they don't want to go out of business in another couple of months.
While I think the fans would step up again, he'll lose many donations just because people are going to be fed up with things and won't take any sob story at face value.  I'm honestly surprised that more people didn't this time around just knowing how suspicious many RPG player tend to be.
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Knightsky on April 25, 2006, 12:12:54 PM
Quote from: Gunhilda
Interesting!  We're actually getting some serious non-d20 action going on here, which is great.  
Unisystem and Palladium discussions at the same time!  C.R.A.B.S. laying down with S.W.I.N.E.!  Oh when will the madness end?




;)
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Nicephorus on April 25, 2006, 01:06:39 PM
Quote from: Gunhilda
Interesting!  We're actually getting some serious non-d20 action going on here, which is great.  Historically, all we've had on Nutkinland *is* d20 (and that mostly D&D),

That's an exaggeration.  It's been maybe 60% D&D and another 20% other D20.  But unisystem, BESM, CoC, WFRP, and a few others have had big discussions at various times. Plus, there have been quite a few interesting system free discussions.

People should start more threads on their favortie games - if others have heard of it, they'll usually jump in.
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Nelly on April 25, 2006, 01:28:06 PM

@Gunhilda: I am a German Chick that's it :D
Seriously, I guess it has to do with my passion.

@Settembrini: Yep, I know. Anyway, I am glad the world is such a little place, nice to meet you over here ;)


 
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Basara_549 on April 25, 2006, 09:35:30 PM
Quote from: Settembrini
Well, I still am convinced that there are severe communication problems between Kevin and the Freelancers. Even Erik Wujik sort of writes an apology into Rifts China.


You DO know that 90% of the communications problems that exist between KS and EW is the fact that EW lives and works (as an professor) in the People's Republic of China? Literally half the world away, in a very censor-happy country. With Kevin being somewhat of a technophobe, in terms of publishing (they even still do layouts the old fashioned way at Palladium - but that has its own advantages with the printer, using equipment that there is little competition for, and gets them lower printing rates), manuscript revisions have to be sent by mail - lots of back-and-forth stuff, taking a long time.
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Settembrini on April 26, 2006, 12:16:30 AM
As a customer, I don´t care about the reasons for communication problems. As long as they are there, something is amiss. And EW is the one guy who is still with PB. Unlike others who have had to get the dreaded eMail from KS through MS or the dreaded "Looked promissing, didn´t live up to it, I wrote it myself" Line.

And don´t get itchy on me, I´ve my own weight in Pally Products, and will continue to buy. In the very end, that is all that matters.
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Zachary The First on April 26, 2006, 01:10:42 AM
Quote from: Settembrini
As a customer, I don´t care about the reasons for communication problems. As long as they are there, something is amiss. And EW is the one guy who is still with PB. Unlike others who have had to get the dreaded eMail from KS through MS or the dreaded "Looked promissing, didn´t live up to it, I wrote it myself" Line.
 
And don´t get itchy on me, I´ve my own weight in Pally Products, and will continue to buy. In the very end, that is all that matters.

It sounds like it must be tough to get any sort of Palladium game going in Germany.  Do you still manage to find players?
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Nelly on April 26, 2006, 01:15:28 AM
No it is nearly impossible to find any Pally gamer in Germany. It was somewhat popular in the 80's as far as I know but Palladium gamer are very very rare and if you find one they are usually hundreds of kilometers away.
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Settembrini on April 26, 2006, 05:50:29 AM
I can second that. But there are about 30 people in Berlin who would play or have played. but I know of only one regular game which went on as a campaign:
Battletech Rifts crossover.

I prefer to DM it at Conventions, as people are more eager to try out new stuff then.
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Nelly on April 26, 2006, 07:31:59 AM

Shadowrun, Vampire, D&D or DSA.. that are popular games and you can find it's gamers nearly everywhere.  
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Settembrini on April 26, 2006, 09:31:07 AM
On a similiar note, WoD is THE big thing in Hungary. They even get more stuff translated than us. There is one big hungarian Rifts Fan on the Pally Pages, but I don´t know, if he is in  any way represantative.
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Nelly on April 26, 2006, 12:00:32 PM
There is a Hungarian on Pallyboards? I didn't know about that. Oh well, than again you mostly find me on Sound Off, since I have no Pally group there is nothing I could talk about haha...
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Phantom Stranger on April 26, 2006, 12:03:51 PM
Quote from: Cyberzombie
Now unlike most of the comments in this thread, that is a valid criticism.  (At least it soudns valid given that all the data I'm operating on comes from this thread and the first post of the linked thread.)  This might cover their butts *right now*, but they need to do something major and systematic if they don't want to go out of business in another couple of months.

Well since they aren't filling distributor orders right now either plus the news that they are having trouble is causing stores to stop ordering their products and restocks.  Followed by the decline in selling the stuff as it is I will be surprised if they survive this despite Fan involvement.
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: kanegrundar on April 26, 2006, 01:40:26 PM
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=259957

Looks like the theft was MUCH less that KS said.  I wonder how well the fans are going to take to this news on many fronts?
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Xavier Lang on April 26, 2006, 01:55:54 PM
Quote from: kanegrundar
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=259957

Looks like the theft was MUCH less that KS said.  I wonder how well the fans are going to take to this news on many fronts?


Not a Palladium fan, but how is the theft much less than KS said?  I didn't get that from the article at all.  He was charged with the $20,000+ felony, which means over $20,000 worth of stuff was provable so they thought.  It was plea baragained down to a lesser charge, but that doesn't change the amount actually stolen.  The guy paid back $50,000.  $50,000 is not 1 million, but if you steal $20,000 worth of books and sell them for about $2,000  I can't collect $20,000 from you, you don't have it.  The $50,000 may have been ever last penny they could squeeze from the guy.

I'm willing to listen as to what I missed, but I'm not seeing them say how much was actually lost.  I know in lots of cases people end up with repaying pennies on the dollar because then you get something instead of nothing.
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Guest (Deleted) on April 26, 2006, 01:59:33 PM
Consider the $50,000 might have been the wholesale value of the books - i.e. the actual provable incurred loss.  Multiply that by the $30 value of your average game book these days and the figure jumps up to $150,000

There's also the court costs in recoup'ing the loss and incidental losses which it's hard to put a figure to let alone prove to a court.
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Nicephorus on April 26, 2006, 02:04:56 PM
Quote from: kanegrundar
(http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=259957)Looks like the theft was MUCH less that KS said.  I wonder how well the fans are going to take to this news on many fronts?

Possibly suspicious but not definitely.

Almost anyone would overestimate and tend to use what it cost over current worth in such a situation.  But, from the case, it's not clear what stuff was valued at.  It could be that the 47K was everything the defendant had, so that is what was settled on just so they could be done with it.
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Zachary The First on April 26, 2006, 02:56:32 PM
Quote from: Pooka
Consider the $50,000 might have been the wholesale value of the books - i.e. the actual provable incurred loss.  Multiply that by the $30 value of your average game book these days and the figure jumps up to $150,000

There's also the court costs in recoup'ing the loss and incidental losses which it's hard to put a figure to let alone prove to a court.

Absolutely.  There are so many variable numbers between plea bargain, estimated worth, non-cash assets, lost material, court fees, the over/under $20k classification system in MI law, etc, that it would be hard to glean much of value from that article, except, yeah, a guy was embezzling.
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Zachary The First on April 26, 2006, 03:00:46 PM
The following is official and posted by Alex Marciniszyn, Palladium Books, and written by Kevin Siembieda, President.



An explanation of the charges and settlement with Steve Sheiring
 
I had hoped to avoid going into the legalities and intricacies of the theft, embezzlement and wrongdoings, as they are extremely painful and complicated. I also hoped that the perpetrator, Steven R. Sheiring, would not be identified for his own safety. I was, and continue to be, concerned that one or more people might take action against Mr. Sheiring. There have been a number of nasty jokes from fans about how they’d like to know who was responsible and what they’d like to do to him. That’s why I didn’t post about the court proceedings or that things had come to an unsatisfying resolve with the plea bargain in State Court.

Please be smart . . .

With Steve’s identity revealed, I make an open plea to our fans NOT to take action against Mr. Sheiring. Not for his welfare (I hope he rots in Hell), but for YOURS. Please, do NOT do anything you’ll live to regret. He’s not worth it, and YOU will be the one who ends up in jail. As I stated in my address to the court, “While I am not happy with the results of the plea bargain, I feel I have no other recourse but to accept it. I do, however, take satisfaction that Mr. Sheiring has ruined his life and lost all his friends over his wrongdoings at Palladium Books.”

If any type of violence, vandalism, threats or wrongdoing happens to Mr. Sheiring it will not be because Palladium Books revealed his identity. I hope RPGnet’s doing so doesn’t result in anything unfortunate. I urge the organizers and administrators of RPGnet to make a public statement asking people NOT to retaliate in any way against Mr. Sheiring.

********************************
There are no misrepresentations
********************************

The damages are true as I have represented them in my posts on the Palladium Website. If anything, the numbers are conservative. The reason the original charges were “Theft and Embezzlement of $20,000 or greater” is because that’s the name of the statute or whatever it is.

Sadly, some people hear only a fragment of a story, make assumptions, jump to the wrong conclusion and then speculate and make claims that aren’t true. I have not lied, exaggerated, or misrepresented Palladium’s troubles, damages, losses or the reasons why. I have not. Everything I have stated is true.

*****************************
Why accept the Plea Bargain?
*****************************

The legal system as portrayed on television and other works of fiction are just that, “fiction.”

The police are overworked and underpaid. The courts are filled with brutal and bloody crimes that take precedence over nonviolent crimes. Our jails are filled with violent criminals, murderers, drug dealers and others. That makes non-violent crimes, like theft and embezzlement, low priority and get the slightest of punishments. Truth be told, after sitting in court and hearing some of the other crimes, I can understand that outlook.

I was told right off the bat, that Mr. Sheiring would probably get probation no matter what. That although he could be looking at as much as 10 years, the reality was probably one year suspended sentence and a felony on his record. If he did time at all, it would probably be 6 months to one year. With good behavior, he’d be out in 3-6 months.

My attorneys, accountant, and other advisors (including the prosecutor and detective, in an unofficial capacity), all agreed that with Palladium in dire straits, I should take whatever restitution I could get, provided it was more than a token amount of a few thousand. So that’s what I did. I accepted the much lesser charge of a “misdemeanor count of $200 or less embezzlement.” That meant no felony charge or time served. He is not a threat to society, no violence was involved, and it was his first offense.

This plea made me angry and sick, but he’d probably walk on probation anyway. As Mr. Sheiring’s defense attorney put it, I could take the plea and get some money that might help Palladium, or I could refuse, and take Steve to trial to “get my pound of flesh.”

Really, I had little choice. I had to think about my guys and Palladium’s survival. We needed the money desperately.

Supposedly, Steve Sheiring is broke. Whatever he may have stolen and embezzled is supposedly gone. We were told his 79 year old father put up the settlement money.

As part of the settlement, Steve also wrote off his investment money and any interest and royalties owed to him by Palladium Books. That’ll help in the long run, but not in our present situation.

That’s right, Steve Sheiring was an investor. He was also a trusted and a beloved friend for 24 years. An employee for 14. My right hand man. An uncle to my kids, and one of the gamers who helped convince me to start Palladium in the first place. Maybe he thought Palladium owed him for those reasons. I don’t know, it doesn’t matter. He’s also the person who lied to every person at Palladium for two years running, stole more than eleven thousand books by the case, and engaged in a variety of wrongdoings that crippled this company. The betrayal and having to deal with the ramifications of his actions rocked every person at Palladium. We have gone through more pain than you can imagine.

As terrible and agonizing as all of this was, the grim reality was, Palladium did not have the money to pursue this with the F.B.I. or in civil court. A civil case would cost tens of thousands of dollars that Palladium nor I possessed. Plus, if the money is all gone . . . it’s a hollow victory. To go to the FBI we were told we would need a forensic accountant to pore through the bookkeeping and make note of the thousands of small things done to make the charges stick. Records so convoluted – thanks to Mr. Sheiring – that my accountant said it would cost at least $100,000 and hundreds of man hours to provide the FBI with all the data they would need. Both actions were out of reach and would only hasten Palladium’s demise if we persued them, stealing away more time, energy, and money (if we had it). We had no idea how people would respond to our call for help, so I took the plea.

It was one of those excruciating moments: Do you want “revenge” or do you want to “survive” and continue to do business. In a perfect world, Steve would be in a Federal Prison doing 6-10 years and we’d have restitution of all (or at least half) the damages. But this is not a perfect world. I had to make the decision I thought was best for Palladium and everybody involved. Besides, we had all spent enough time hating this S.O.B., if Palladium was to survive his treachery, we needed to focus on its survival. If there is divine justice, Steve will pay for his crimes, big time.

******************    
That’s the Truth
******************

Those of you who want to believe the worst, I guess you will, and nothing I say will change your mind. You want me to be some kind of lying scum bag and you’ll find some way to make me out that way. Unfortunate, because it’s not true.

Only my staff and those closest to me know how agonizing this entire ordeal has been. The trauma inflicted upon the entire staff or how many tears and cries of anguish we’ve all shed. This is not a joke or a con game. This has been living hell.

We anguished about going public with our appeal. Palladium’s fans don’t owe me anything. Everything I have ever done, from keeping prices low to the X-Mas Grab Bags, I did because I thought it best for everyone. I love my work and my life. I have no regrets.

The phenomenal outpouring of love and support Palladium fans have exhibited in just this past week alone is overwhelming and magnificent. The greatest moment of my life. Even if Palladium Books should go under, I am one of the luckiest and richest people on the face of the Earth. Not rich in money (if Palladium goes under, I’ll literally lose everything, and a lot of other people will suffer too), but rich in friendship, respect, and love. I feel truly blessed. I’m living the movie “It’s a Wonderful Life.” I mean truly living that movie with thousands of friends rushing forward to help save Palladium Books. People literally from around the world. That’s incredible beyond belief.

I thank every single one of Palladium’s fans and supporters.

For those of you who dislike me and/or Palladium Books, believe what you will. Hate me for whatever reason, but it doesn’t change the fact that I am blessed beyond my wildest dreams. I have a wonderful life, and the greatest, kindest fans in the world. With their trust and help, and with hard work and a little luck at Palladium’s end, we will survive this very real, very true crisis of treachery.

I write this post only for Palladium’s fans, so you aren’t concerned or confused about what’s going on.

As those who know me, really know me, can testify, I would never lie about something like this. Never.

Sincerely,
Kevin Siembieda
President and Owner of Palladium Books Inc.
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: kanegrundar on April 26, 2006, 03:25:06 PM
I still believe that there was some over-exaggeration of the values of what was stolen.  5% of KS' quoted damages is still extremely small.  Couple that with a company with a dubious track record of dealing with fans basically asking for hand-outs and I'm left with a situation that leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Don't get me wrong, I don't wish KS ill.  I hope Palladium stays afloat, but I just hope that KS learns a lesson here.  Then again, with the unbelievable outpouring of charity he likely won't.  From the sound of things Palladium isn't out of the woods yet, but I guess we'll see over the coming weeks to months.
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Xavier Lang on April 26, 2006, 03:26:43 PM
Quote from: Zachary The First
That’s right, Steve Sheiring was an investor. He was also a trusted and a beloved friend for 24 years. An employee for 14. My right hand man.


Ouch.
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Zachary The First on April 26, 2006, 04:14:49 PM
Quote from: Xavier Lang
Ouch.

I actually said that out loud when I read that.
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Nelly on April 26, 2006, 04:55:55 PM
Me too... :imsorry:
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Cyberzombie on April 26, 2006, 05:12:58 PM
The fact that they got *anything* back is pretty remarkable, actually.  Money embezzled is usually totally gone forever.
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Zachary The First on April 26, 2006, 05:23:07 PM
Quote from: Cyberzombie
The fact that they got *anything* back is pretty remarkable, actually.  Money embezzled is usually totally gone forever.

Sad but true.  In my hometown, we had a guy rip off a bunch of retirees for over $150k, wiping out some of their savings.  I think he had nothing really listed in his name, so they got very little back.  He also served something to the amount of all of 16 days in jail. :mad:
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: cnath.rm on April 27, 2006, 10:31:17 AM
I would be interested to know how much in donations they got once they put together a PayPal acct.  I know there wasn't any real way that I could buy a $50 print, and I don't play them, so buying books wasn't really a good option for me, but I could toss a couple bucks into the hat via PP at least.

The college bookstore I work at had a bunch of employee theft 8 years ago or so, and they didn't prosecute it as they didn't want to deal with a full audit. They are a pain, and I don't blame Palladium for not wanting to go that route.
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Zachary The First on April 27, 2006, 03:50:40 PM
Quote from: cnath.rm
I would be interested to know how much in donations they got once they put together a PayPal acct.  I know there wasn't any real way that I could buy a $50 print, and I don't play them, so buying books wasn't really a good option for me, but I could toss a couple bucks into the hat via PP at least.

The college bookstore I work at had a bunch of employee theft 8 years ago or so, and they didn't prosecute it as they didn't want to deal with a full audit. They are a pain, and I don't blame Palladium for not wanting to go that route.

It was at $2250 2 days after they put the PP link, I think.  No idea where it is now.  There should be an update fairly soon.
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Basara_549 on May 02, 2006, 10:12:42 PM
Lessee - putting my education to work (I was a MAth for teaching HS major - passed all my math courses through Calc III but washed out of the EDU courses)...

11,000 books at an average MRSP of $15 is $165,000. If one assumes 50% of the MSRP cost as the cost of production, 10% as the amount Palladium actually makes on a book, and the other 40% the distributor and retailer margins, then it takes FIVE books (50%/10% = 5) sold to BREAK EVEN - in other words recoup enough profit from normal sales to offset the production cost of ONE stolen book. So, to COVER THE LOSSES from the stolen books, Palladium would have to sell $840,000 books, before actually making a cent of profit. And that's assuming a much HIGHER profit margin per book than most retail and direct-from-manufacturer businesses have, due to tougher competition.

That's one of the reasons shoplifting and employee theft is treated so harshly at retail - if a store is making only 5% on an item, someone stealing one means the store has to sell 19x that item's value to cover the wholesale cost of the stolen item.

And, IIRC, Kane, a lot of the bad record for dealing with fans, especially missing orders and manuscripts, was when STEVE was the one in charge of handling them, and many of the customer calls. The one time I had to call Palladium for an order, it was Steve who talked to me about it.

BTW, for those that were lamenting Rifts: Lemuria being promised, but never released - it was - you guessed it - STEVE writing the book, originally!
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Settembrini on May 02, 2006, 11:29:34 PM
Quote
BTW, for those that were lamenting Rifts: Lemuria being promised, but never released - it was - you guessed it - STEVE writing the book, originally!

Now this is starting to look like a conspiracy. So at the very least make him write it! In prison!

Seriously, how could someone so close do this kind of stuff? Feeling of being wronged? Just criminal energy? I´m wondering about the motive...
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Zachary The First on May 03, 2006, 12:18:31 AM
Quote from: Settembrini
Now this is starting to look like a conspiracy. So at the very least make him write it! In prison!
 
Seriously, how could someone so close do this kind of stuff? Feeling of being wronged? Just criminal energy? I´m wondering about the motive...

Who knows why people do what they do.  If was just to get out of writing Lemuria, though... :muttering:
 
Seriously, your guess is as good as mine.  Long-standing repressed anger, gambling addiction, a sense of self-entitlement beyond his means--we'll likely never know.  All we'll know is, he sure did piss a lot of folks off.
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Settembrini on May 03, 2006, 01:36:02 AM
Quote
All we'll know is, he sure did piss a lot of folks off.

Me included. So talking about the future, how´s Arzno? What makes it shine? Is it advancing the Vampire Metaplot?
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Zachary The First on May 03, 2006, 02:12:45 AM
Quote from: Settembrini
Me included. So talking about the future, how´s Arzno? What makes it shine? Is it advancing the Vampire Metaplot?

Arzno...consensus seems to be everyone dislikes the cover, but likes what's inside.  Lotsa techno-wizardy, a good locale that's well-fleshed out, and yeah, the vampires, while not directly related to what you may recall from the machinations in Vampire Kingdoms, have enough to do with it and their own plot aside to keep things lively.
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: kanegrundar on May 03, 2006, 09:36:39 AM
Quote from: Basara_549
And, IIRC, Kane, a lot of the bad record for dealing with fans, especially missing orders and manuscripts, was when STEVE was the one in charge of handling them, and many of the customer calls. The one time I had to call Palladium for an order, it was Steve who talked to me about it.

BTW, for those that were lamenting Rifts: Lemuria being promised, but never released - it was - you guessed it - STEVE writing the book, originally!

How does one guy get that much responsibility?  Is KS not the micro-manager that he's been reported to be for years now?  On one hand, I feel for KS, but on the other hand this either feels like a "we can blame all the past transgressions and stuff that cost us business on Steve" or just someone that really fucked up running his business.  Friend or not, when you hear the same excuse about screwed up orders time and time and time again, a smart business owner would look into things.

At any rate, whether it was Steve behind all the questionable practices at Palladium or not, he was still the face of the company to many fans (even if few knew they were talking to Steve in particular or not), so any mishaps on his part will carry directly to the company.  It's like when people call Dell's customer service and get shitty service, that bad experience carries onto the company, not just the guy answering the call.
Title: Palladium In Trouble
Post by: Basara_549 on May 09, 2006, 01:09:00 PM
Steve was not only a close friend of the Siembiedas, he was one of the few people Kevin had let invest in the company. Part of the settlement, in fact, involved Steve relinquishing all interest in the company, as well as everything he had in their retirement system. He was involved with the printing processes, orders, finances, the whole deal. In fact, one of the first tips that something was wrong was some "XMas Grab bag" offers getting temporarily "lost", then being shipped from somewhere other than Palladium. Steve was diverting the payments, then filling the orders with items he'd already stolen, to take the orders "off the books" and be 100% profit for him. This required aquiring additional items which were grab bag exclusives, causing the delay (in some cases months) that would eventually establish the trail back to him.

Kevin has never been as much a micro-manager as people made him out to be. He has been a bit too much of one in terms of being the final editor of a manuscript, but not to the overall extreme as people make it out to be.