It seems like you have a lot of very contradictory preferences...

I don't understand why something like Perfect20 doesn't have enough crunch, but you only want a selection of 12 feats...  I also don't see how you're going to 'stay close to d20' with the list of specifications you provided.

I guess I'm just confused.  I see your list, and I see your responses to others' suggestions, and I can't logically combine them.

-O

Quote from: Dirk Remmeckeenelson,

you may want to have a look at those two:
Levi Kornelsen's Perfect20
Greywolf's M20 and variants

Thanks for posting those links, Dirk. I've just been going through Levi's Perfect 20, and I'm very impressed.

- Q

Quote from: kregmosierExcept that some people might enjoy doing it??  i assume that's OK?
For me, i just like less extraneous BS that i don't need/will never use.  AAO's?  no thanks.

It's a ridiculous act to spend all this effort to "fix" something when there are plenty of alternative systems available that could be used with far less modification. Points #1-3 on his list basically mean he would probably prefer AD&D 1e - a game with four classes, no skills, and no feats. Since he probably wants to conserve the d20 mechanic, the solution is therefore OSRIC - AD&D 1e with the d20 mechanic.

It's worth pointing out that with only 12 feats in the game, frex, no one could play a "fighter" since they would run out of feats. Nor would wizards be able to get the bonus metamagic feats they're entitled to without taking up 1/3rd of all available feats on the feat list. These are not minor changes the OP is proposing - they involve writing at least two new base classes, 12 new feats, and 12 new skills that must cover everything the PCs can do.

It's also problematic because the OP doesn't seem entirely clear about the details of what he wants or why D&D as-written can't give him that. For example, point #4 in his list is covered by the "Take 10 / Take 20" mechanic that is already in the game. Point #5 is covered by "retries" in the skill section of the PHB.

Thus, he should try OSRIC, which I'm told is very good at capturing the sort of feel he seems to wish, rather than bothering himself trying to bash D&D's round peg into his square hole.

Quote from: enelsonI am trying to stay close to d20 because of my desire for a general system I can run Fantasty, Space, Modern or Supers. My group is familiar with it since we play 3.5. There are just aspects of it I need streamlined to fit my tastes.

Well, there have been many modifications to the core D20 system, but usually to increase the lethality and complexity of combat for more low-magic world or they simplify it by _replacing_ rules (e.g. True20), instead of just _simplifying_ like you seem to do.

So, to get it right, you want to keep the basic elements of Fantasy D20 (i.e. D&D), while making it easier to run? So nothing quite different, just with fewer options...

Quote from: enelsonEarlier, it was mentioned that 12 feats were too little? I am generally curious how many feats (advantages/talents) players would like in a game.

That really depends on the rest of the system. If it's generally reduced to some core abilities, like C&C does with D20 or like Tunnels & Trolls, I can live with deducing everything from ability scores and classes.

In most D20 systems, players want their options, as signified by class abilities and feats. If there are lots of optional class abilities and much multi-classing, you need less feats. If everything is designed around feats (again, like True20), you need lots of feats.

Combat has lots of options and contributing values and usually for every factor and variable, there's a feat. And as non-fighting characters get feats too, you're bound to create almost as many for the mages and skill monkeys. You could get by with no feats if you integrate most into fighter combat abilities. This has the disadvantage that with just a few levels of fighter, there's not enough "branching out" among the feat trees to have different enough characters.

I greatly recommend the way True20 has done it, i.e. just reducing the prerequisites for the feats. This alone makes feat selection much easier to do. Players just don't need to plan ahead that much. I actually prefer this over talent and/or feat trees (cf. Perfect20, Grim Tales).

If you need a core foundation for your simplified D20, make it feats. They're more modular than most other options.

One way you might approach things is to take a bunch of feats and create some new and create very simple base classes for the game. Every core class would look like the D&D fighter, i.e. lots of bonus feats. Make a strict list of bonus feats for every class and you can skip most other class abilities. With some work, even the magic system can be done that way.

Quote from: PseudoephedrineSince he probably wants to conserve the d20 mechanic, the solution is therefore OSRIC - AD&D 1e with the d20 mechanic.

Do you mean Castles & Crusades (C&C)? OSRIC is AD&D1e in all but name, C&C is more like AD&D1E or Basic D&D + d20. I've seen some combat style mods that are inbetween editions. It'd also be pretty easy to add in whatever skills, feats, or other bits from D&D3E that you want to use.

Thanks for all the comments and suggestions! After thinking about it some more, I agree with the statement that I am trying to put a round peg in a square hole. Ain't gonna work. I'll move on to my next project....

But if I ever do decide to make these changes, I already have a name for the game...TWd20....Train Wreck d20! :keke:

Quote from: Casey777Do you mean Castles & Crusades (C&C)? OSRIC is AD&D1e in all but name, C&C is more like AD&D1E or Basic D&D + d20. I've seen some combat style mods that are inbetween editions. It'd also be pretty easy to add in whatever skills, feats, or other bits from D&D3E that you want to use.

I'm not familiar with Castles and Crusades except to recognise the name. To be fair, I'm only familiar second-hand with OSRIC. That second-hand source explained that it was AD&D 1e with a d20-style resolution mechanic. If they're wrong, and C&C is more like that, then enelson should check out Castles and Crusades instead.

Enelson> If you can talk your players out of just d20-based stuff, FATE and Unknown Armies can both do fantasy gaming really well, albeit with different "feels" than d20 has. Both games have at least some of the ideas you seem to want to realise mechanically. FATE is free, and Unknown Armies has its character-generation chapter available free online.