Here is the first set of modifications needed to increase my enjoyment of d20 games (DnD 3.5 and OGL based) .

1. Skills. I cannot remove all skills as this would make the game less d20ish. My goal is to keep a d20 feel. So, having stated that, I need to consolidate the skills to 12. 12 is a nice number as that provides a decent level of variety without too much granularity. For example, Awareness encompasses Spot, Search, Listen and any other perception based skill. The skill list would not include combat or magic skills as those types of actions fall under the purview of classes.

2. Reduce the number of feats. Again, 12 is a nice number. These feats should provide a bonus to a roll. Need to think about this list.

3. Restrict the game (fantasy in this case) to 4 basic classes: Fighter, Mage, Thief, Cleric. No other base or prestige classes. Multi-classing is encouraged to provide more variety. For example, a bounty hunter is a Fighter+Thief; a Paladin (or Templar) is a Fighter+Cleric.

4. De-emphasize rolling. This is an old trick I need to encourage when I DM. I will only ask for a non-combat roll when the action is challenging and time constrained. For example, climbing a cliff would not require a roll; climbing a cliff to prevent the mad arch-mage from unleashing chaos requires an action roll.

5. Re-evaluate a failed non-combat roll. A result below the DC does not necessarily mean failure but it may mean success after an additional encounter or two. For example, if I "fail" at a Secret Door search, I may still find the secret door but only after I dispatch the horde of orcs which stumbled into the room.

I share your desire for more streamlined D20 rules.  Have you checked out True20? Or the new Saga edition of Star Wars?

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditI share your desire for more streamlined D20 rules.  Have you checked out True20? Or the new Saga edition of Star Wars?

RPGPundit

True20 has no Hit Points.  No hps makes this poor lamb cry.

It looks good otherwise though. It's on my "to buy" list. :keke:

Quote from: Sacrificial LambTrue20 has no Hit Points.  No hps makes this poor lamb cry.

It looks good otherwise though. It's on my "to buy" list. :keke:

I feel your pain, sheep.

It sounds like you'd really rather not be playing D&D 3.x at all. Perhaps you should check out OSRIC or AD&D 1e. There are many systems that can give you what you want without requiring you to spend so much time trying to "fix" the game.

Quote from: Sacrificial LambTrue20 has no Hit Points.  No hps makes this poor lamb cry.

It looks good otherwise though. It's on my "to buy" list. :keke:

if you haven't tried using the damage track, you might be surprised by how smooth and playable it is. I was intitally wary- in fact my exact words were, "That sounds lame." But it is just a different way of dealing with the same thing as hit points. These days, after using it for a while, I'm not really interested in playing anything with hit points, they seem lame to me now .

Quote from: enelson1. Skills. I cannot remove all skills as this would make the game less d20ish.

Not really. Compared to feats and multi-classing, skills aren't that essential to D20 gaming. Something like the SIEGE mechanic or an even more generic SAGA-like solution could work.

Skills are pretty easy to handle, though. So just reducing the number in a logical way should be fine. Several products have done exactly that.

Quote from: enelson2. Reduce the number of feats. Again, 12 is a nice number. These feats should provide a bonus to a roll. Need to think about this list.

Now you're talking crazy!
Reducing the feats to such a low number won't get you anything. You can reach the same level of simplification through other means, e.g. emphasizing or enforcing "feat trees". Less options for the players but still enough special abilities.

And bonus-to-roll feats are boring. A good feat should provide new capabilities.

Quote from: enelson3. Restrict the game (fantasy in this case) to 4 basic classes: Fighter, Mage, Thief, Cleric. No other base or prestige classes. Multi-classing is encouraged to provide more variety. For example, a bounty hunter is a Fighter+Thief; a Paladin (or Templar) is a Fighter+Cleric.

Easy to do, both with the basic D&D system or with other variants. True20 has been mentioned before and I can always recommend the "Horizon" line from fantasy flight games. Spellslinger, Redline, Grimm etc.
Very streamlined games. Spellslinger has just three basic classes for non-mages, magic-users are a replacment for the first level, the skill list is reduced nicely. Feats are pretty much as is, but the bonus feat lists for the basic classes are rather narrow.

Quote from: enelson4. De-emphasize rolling.

Common sense and already in D20. What's the problem?

Quote from: enelson5. Re-evaluate a failed non-combat roll. A result below the DC does not necessarily mean failure but it may mean success after an additional encounter or two. For example, if I "fail" at a Secret Door search, I may still find the secret door but only after I dispatch the horde of orcs which stumbled into the room.

Now it gets a bit too "narrative" for me...

Quote from: Sacrificial LambTrue20 has no Hit Points.  No hps makes this poor lamb cry.

It looks good otherwise though. It's on my "to buy" list. :keke:

The damage track from True20 makes the combat much more "realistic", in the sense that it resembles what is to fight while wounded, and that no matter how badass you are one blow can get you a no return ticket to the afterlife.
You should try it, I'm sure you'll like it.

Quote from: UmaSamaThe damage track from True20 makes the combat much more "realistic", in the sense that it resembles what is to fight while wounded, and that no matter how badass you are one blow can get you a no return ticket to the afterlife.
You should try it, I'm sure you'll like it.

It's also easily modded to reflect the inflating survivability that D&D promotes. Adding +1 TB per level is all it takes for epic style campaigns. Aiming for the reverse effect with hit points is more problematic.

EDIT: Respondong to the OP, my ideal d20 variant would be Iron Heroes incorporating the Damage Save mechanic, or perhaps the wound threshold/condition track of SW Saga.

enelson,

you may want to have a look at those two:
Levi Kornelsen's Perfect20
Greywolf's M20 and variants

Good calls on both, Dirk.  I think Levi hit one out of the ballpark on Perfect20 and MicroLite20 is like a Erol Otus painting on a grain of rice.

I was totally gonna do a little dance and suggest M20, but Dirk stole my thunder and now my show is ruined.

I'll be in my trailer.:mad:

Lest we forget, Simple 20, which is my fave next to micro.

Quote from: PseudoephedrineIt sounds like you'd really rather not be playing D&D 3.x at all. Perhaps you should check out OSRIC or AD&D 1e. There are many systems that can give you what you want without requiring you to spend so much time trying to "fix" the game.

Except that some people might enjoy doing it??  i assume that's OK?
For me, i just like less extraneous BS that i don't need/will never use.  AAO's?  no thanks.

QuoteI was totally gonna do a little dance and suggest M20, but Dirk stole my thunder and now my show is ruined.

He does this all the time with me on my forae.

He knows so much stuff, and has played even more, he´s sorta like theRPGNabob of Knowledge.
They even had to put his name onto the credits page of the RC, otherwise, he´d have stolen Allston´s & Mentzer´s thunder!

Thanks for the suggestions.

• True20 - I have the pocket player handbook. Too many skills and too many feats for my tastes. Just didn't wow me. Same with M&M. No wow factor.
• Microlite d20 - I really liked this game but I need a tad more crunch. I really liked the whole PocketMod thing.
• Other d20 games (Simple, Perfect, etc) - There ok but did not provide that Snickers like satisfying feeling.
• Saga Ed - Only read snippets of it. My fear is that, again, the skill list and feats list would be too much.
• Basic, BFRPG - I love these games but they deviate from my desire to stay close to d20.

I am trying to stay close to d20 because of my desire for a general system I can run Fantasty, Space, Modern or Supers. My group is familiar with it since we play 3.5. There are just aspects of it I need streamlined to fit my tastes.

Earlier, it was mentioned that 12 feats were too little? I am generally curious how many feats (advantages/talents) players would like in a game.