Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on November 09, 2021, 05:42:45 PM

Quote from: jhkim on November 09, 2021, 05:34:23 PMNo, the Incans really did venerate the mummified corpse. Here's one description from quick search, but it's well documented from many places.

I feel thats a materialistic take on a spiritual thing.

Its like saying Jews worship paper, and a fantasy version of jews would have paper golems be their guides.

I agree that it's a materialistic take on a spiritual thing. However, I think the more direct parallel would be having demons be physical horned beings with real pitchforks that can be fought with swords, as opposed to symbolic representations of human sin.

I do think there is a danger of trivialization. If fighting demons becomes just a tactical exercise in how much damage output you can have against their armor class and hit points, it loses the point of the symbol. On the other hand, fighting demons in D&D is fun - and no one is expecting that it be an accurate representation of Christian belief.

QuoteAnyone still playing or defending Paizo games at this point is a cuck. Pure and simple. No further commentary necessary.

Well I'd rather cuck to woke company whose game I enjoy and can unwoke by my GM-rulings mystical power, than cuck to people I cannot ignore stupid political believes and actions of authors.

QuoteThe just absolute issue with 'Good Undead' is that nobody thinks corpses are cool. Nobody wants to be a corpse. Corpses are never directly worshipped almost ever because they represent disease and decay. Nobody likes disease or decay. Societies with mummies or cadaver worship worship the spiritual representation of the person. Mummification is preservation to make the corpse less of a corpse.

The reason undead is almost universally evil, is because your turning somebody into a rotting body. A fate worse then death. A lich is a person crazy enough that the fear of death even drives them to the insane idea of becoming a walking corpse. A vampire is still being a walking corpse, just masquerading it with stolen life.

Why should tastes and biases of mortals hold any power over absolute Good or Evil of Undeath. Maybe most mortals are just unEnlightened enough

QuoteNow its just beggining to sound like brainwashing. Just brainwash the living Emperor then. It seems like a curse then, when your desires and ambitions are stripped away to live a senseless existence.

It's not brainwashing. It's pure perfect spiritual evolution and first step is abandoning desires and ambitions, because they are EVIL. IMPURE. Petty mortal shit.
Any sane religion shall tell you so - flesh worshipper.

QuoteHowever, I think the more direct parallel would be having demons be physical horned beings with real pitchforks that can be fought with swords, as opposed to symbolic representations of human sin.

Demons never in Abrahamic mythology were symbolic representations. They were very real beings - though indeed not physical, and not horned

Quote from: jhkim on November 09, 2021, 05:59:56 PMI agree that it's a materialistic take on a spiritual thing.

I think literalistic is the word im thinking about. I still don't think the dead living with the living is a good idea in any way without having to twist so many points as to make it meaningless. In addition as an adventure point I feel it takes away from adventure potential.

But it got me thinking about bodily treatment in historical contexts, so Im willing to walk back some of what I said.

Quote from: tenbones on November 08, 2021, 03:42:59 PM
But there is an inherent, though not explicit necessarily, notion that necromancy and the undead *requires* "life-energy" to sustain itself.

Of course this is not universally true - but it's prevalent enough to be combined with corruption, entropy and decay enough to give it a highly unambiguous predatory aspect.

D&D is the usual exception in that creating undead can come from a variety of sources, good and bad.

Theres also undead created by curses who may not have been bad people and may be fighting the curse in some way. Others just seen to get over-written with a new evil personality and whomever they were before is gone other than appearance pretty much.

Then there are those who become undead through sheer force of will. Good or bad. Vengeful spirits, lost loves, etc.

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on November 08, 2021, 04:58:52 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on November 08, 2021, 12:12:09 PM

Quote from: Wrath of God on November 08, 2021, 05:52:20 AM
[Vampires are people, too.]

Don't vampires need to drink human blood and thereby kill people? Victim of a curse, sure...but the good thing to do would be to walk out into the sunlight: sacrifice yourself to save your village. No matter how kind or charming a vampire is, it's still evil due to pride or selfishness.

Does the vampire need to drink enough blood to kill the victim?  I wonder if a vamp had a "herd" of humans that he could take a little bit of blood from several of them l to satisfy the hunger, and yet leave the humans healthy? 

I think the Vampire: Masquerade game had something like this (only played it once back in 1991).

But the D&D vampire drains levels, or does necrotic damage (depending on the edition) so there is a life-energy/soul draining component to their blood drinking.

Depends on the vampire. Theres tons of variations on it. Everything from the feeding is not fatal outright, but the victem gets weaker and weaker with each visitation. All the way to draining someone to a withered husk. And in between you have things like it takes X number of visitations to kill or turn a victem.

Theres also the form a vampires weaknesses take. Like for example you rarely see the one where they have to stop and count grains of salt scattered on the doorstep, and other such oddities. Same for method of killing them. Some are very specific and some are pretty simple really. Even weakness to silver or not ping pongs.

All that said these are things you can bet the woke cult will eventually turn on with some new lunatic hallucination. Like they already have. "Vampires are sexual predators!" is the current one that keeps getting tossed around and even pops in in the opening designer screed for Curse of Strahd.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on November 09, 2021, 06:54:06 PM

Quote from: jhkim on November 09, 2021, 05:59:56 PMI agree that it's a materialistic take on a spiritual thing.

I think literalistic is the word im thinking about. I still don't think the dead living with the living is a good idea in any way without having to twist so many points as to make it meaningless. In addition as an adventure point I feel it takes away from adventure potential.

But it got me thinking about bodily treatment in historical contexts, so Im willing to walk back some of what I said.

Cool. Which other historical contexts are you thinking of? Putting in the picture of the pile of skulls from the Paris crypts made me think some about how one might capture that side of medievalism in an adventure.

Regarding the Incan fantasy - I'm not sure what part of adventure potential you're thinking of. I've been working up a number of adventure ideas in the setting. My son's already written up an adventure for levels 1-3, and one for level 7-9. I'm thinking of another low-level one and a mid-level one to add to them.

Quote from: jhkim on November 10, 2021, 05:23:57 PM
Cool. Which other historical contexts are you thinking of?

Lenin.

QuoteRegarding the Incan fantasy - I'm not sure what part of adventure potential you're thinking of.

Not incan fantasy, but too much 'God Presence'. Gods just zapping enlightenment into people. Just feels like it makes a setting too safe. Your gonna have to contrive reasons for things to be bad on a national level for instance. Which was something that Eberron had exactly and it was very unsatisfying.

Why would you want to be governed by some fleshy young upstart and not the immortal enlightened ancient ancestors stripped of petty desires.

Star Wars force logic is flimsy, but if Force ghost-ism was something everybody got (it wasn't a state of mind you had to earn), and they could stick around for long periods of time, the galaxy would have been very different.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on November 10, 2021, 05:36:59 PM

Quote from: jhkim on November 10, 2021, 05:23:57 PM
Regarding the Incan fantasy - I'm not sure what part of adventure potential you're thinking of.

Not incan fantasy, but too much 'God Presence'. Gods just zapping enlightenment into people. Just feels like it makes a setting too safe. Your gonna have to contrive reasons for things to be bad on a national level for instance. Which was something that Eberron had exactly and it was very unsatisfying.

Why would you want to be governed by some fleshy young upstart and not the immortal enlightened ancient ancestors stripped of petty desires.

Sorry if I'm misinterpreting, but it sounds like you're approaching this from the point of view of speculative fiction -- i.e. if magic powers existed, what would really happen?  This is more the approach of some settings inspired by modern fantasy.  But I feel that for settings inspired by folklore - whether that's fairy tales or Arthurian legend or Incan myth - it's important for style that the world feel like magic and the divine are all around. For example, a medieval Christian knight would feel that "God Presence" is very much a thing in his world. In an Arthurian game, I wouldn't want for it to seem otherwise. The contrivances for a "God Presence" setting are exactly the real religious issues of "why is there evil in the world" which believing characters face.

Specifically for New Horizons, I don't intend for things to be bad on a national level. The empire is fucking huge, with a population around 10 to 20 million like the Incan empire at its peak - encompassing an area the size of all of Western Europe. There is room for very large-scale problems without ever threatening the empire itself. D&D is traditionally "Wild West" - and here the "Wild West" is the frontiers of the empire - which is where most adventures will happen. Just like actual Wild West adventures aren't very constrained by the U.S. national government.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on November 10, 2021, 05:36:59 PM
Star Wars force logic is flimsy, but if Force ghost-ism was something everybody got (it wasn't a state of mind you had to earn), and they could stick around for long periods of time, the galaxy would have been very different.

OK, but I don't see how this applies to New Horizons. Jedi in Star Wars - like elves in Middle Earth - are far more common than past emperors in New Horizons. There's less than a dozen past emperors in the whole empire, and they generally stay in their funereal palaces. It's a significant bit of background, but not something that will be a part of most adventures.

Quote from: jhkim on November 10, 2021, 06:28:25 PM
Sorry if I'm misinterpreting, but it sounds like you're approaching this from the point of view of speculative fiction -- i.e. if magic powers existed, what would really happen?

I will admit, I would not be interested in a game that runs on Mythological rules because I feel that dice or character building at all doesn't belong in such a world. Its like running a RPG musical. Music follows a very different logic from a d20.

At the very least providing a sense of internal logic for a myth is I find important for a character to make informed decisions from.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on November 10, 2021, 06:48:05 PM

Quote from: jhkim on November 10, 2021, 06:28:25 PM
Sorry if I'm misinterpreting, but it sounds like you're approaching this from the point of view of speculative fiction -- i.e. if magic powers existed, what would really happen?

I will admit, I would not be interested in a game that runs on Mythological rules because I feel that dice or character building at all doesn't belong in such a world. Its like running a RPG musical. Music follows a very different logic from a d20.

At the very least providing a sense of internal logic for a myth is I find important for a character to make informed decisions from.

What you're talking about is stuff that is very far removed from player decisions, though.

I feel like what you are advocating is that all of the background of the world needs to conform to comprehensible rules, and the *characters* can't believe in anything mystical or mythic. By this standard, then settings like Star Wars, Middle Earth, and Pendragon aren't workable as gaming - because the characters believe in mythic principles larger than themselves. i.e. If I run a Middle Earth RPG, then I should have stats and mechanics that define exactly what Sauron does, and that needs to be the attitude of the characters as well.

In New Horizons, there is no expectation that divine intervention will feature in adventures. The characters will fight NPCs and monsters according to knowable rules. Still, the characters still believe in gods and spirits and myth - and that guides their view of the world.

That's been how I run games set in Star Wars and Middle Earth and Pendragon as well.

Quote from: jhkim on November 11, 2021, 03:07:16 PMWhat you're talking about is stuff that is very far removed from player decisions, though.

Speaking as a player: I prefer when I can discover more about a setting and the answer isn't 'Because'.

What I meant is that in russian myths/fairytales things often happen 3 times. There are 3 hydras to defeat (one after the other), 3 wives of the hydras, and 3 jelous brothers.
Thats because its meant to be said in song.
You could not really have the the rule of 3s work in a tabletop RPG the same way without characters working into it. And if they are working into it the dice and random chance would be a hinderance.

QuoteI feel like what you are advocating is that all of the background of the world needs to conform to comprehensible rules, and the *characters* can't believe in anything mystical or mythic.

Thats a conflation of two different things. You don't need the details to a molecular level, but things need to make sense within itself is my viewpoint.

QuoteBy this standard, then settings like Star Wars, Middle Earth, and Pendragon aren't workable as gaming

Star Wars isn't Mythical in its internal logic, neither is Middle Earth (outside of broad strokes), and I have no idea about Pendragon.

Middle earth has impressive or epic things in it, but the things inside of it are by and large governed by very stringent internal logic.

QuoteThat's been how I run games set in Star Wars and Middle Earth and Pendragon as well.

Alright. But as a player and a GM when I answer to a players question 'Why is X and not Y' I don't generally say 'Because its mythological'. Thats not any different then 'Just don't ask about X element'.

It doesn't feel mythological. Just internally inconsistent.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on November 11, 2021, 04:15:36 PM

Quote from: jhkim on November 11, 2021, 03:07:16 PMWhat you're talking about is stuff that is very far removed from player decisions, though.

Speaking as a player: I prefer when I can discover more about a setting and the answer isn't 'Because'.

What I meant is that in russian myths/fairytales things often happen 3 times. There are 3 hydras to defeat (one after the other), 3 wives of the hydras, and 3 jelous brothers.
Thats because its meant to be said in song.
You could not really have the the rule of 3s work in a tabletop RPG the same way without characters working into it. And if they are working into it the dice and random chance would be a hinderance.

I cant believe that Russian mythology ripped off Planescapes Rule of 3 so blatantly.

Typical!

Quote from: Shasarak on November 11, 2021, 06:16:10 PMI cant believe that Russian mythology ripped off Planescapes Rule of 3 so blatantly.

Typical!

Its a time travel thing. In the future there are more stringent international copyright laws, so russia time travellers went into the past so they could get away with it.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on November 11, 2021, 06:58:41 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on November 11, 2021, 06:16:10 PMI cant believe that Russian mythology ripped off Planescapes Rule of 3 so blatantly.

Typical!

Its a time travel thing. In the future there are more stringent international copyright laws, so russia time travellers went into the past so they could get away with it.

Yeah, I think I saw that movie.

I mean documentary.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on November 11, 2021, 04:15:36 PM

Quote from: jhkim on November 11, 2021, 03:07:16 PMBy this standard, then settings like Star Wars, Middle Earth, and Pendragon aren't workable as gaming

Star Wars isn't Mythical in its internal logic, neither is Middle Earth (outside of broad strokes), and I have no idea about Pendragon.

Middle earth has impressive or epic things in it, but the things inside of it are by and large governed by very stringent internal logic.

I feel like we're talking past each other here. The intent with Land of New Horizons is to be high fantasy in a similar manner to Star Wars or Middle Earth. Overall, I think that it is comparable. I don't feel that there is any more mysticism or "God Presence" in New Horizons than in either of these worlds. Yes, New Horizons has its immortal past emperors - but Middle Earth has a bunch of millenia-old elves - plus old demi-gods like Tom Bombadil, the Istari, and of course Sauron who has very widespread effects. Star Wars in the Old Republic period has hundreds of Jedi around.

I feel like what you're complaining about is that logically, the Jedi should have used their mind control and other powers to take over and rule the galaxy as it's overlords. The only reason why they don't is mysticism - that Jedi have a code of ethics that comes from their connection to the Force. But by that standard, the influence of The Force is God Presence, isn't it?

The past emperors in the tomb-palaces have consistent rules that govern them as much so as elves or Jedi.