Quote from: jhkim on November 09, 2021, 02:39:17 PM

Quote from: tenbones on November 09, 2021, 01:51:32 PM

Quote from: jhkim on November 08, 2021, 05:35:53 PMMuch of European Christian myth tend to portray ghosts and other undead as evil, but there are many pagan and non-European counter-examples. There's also 20th century fantasy going back many decades, long before any modern trends like Twilight. Casper the Friendly Ghost started in 1945, Deadman in 1967, and Blade in 1973.

Again - all exceptions that prove the rule. Your point? Casper was nice. His other ghost-friends were evil assholes.

My point is that whether good undead are even possible - and how frequent they are - is setting dependent.

Specifically, I'm interested in how people see the evilness of undead because I'm helping develop a D&D setting where undead and necromancy specifically are not associated with evil. They can be evil, just like the living can be evil, but it isn't seen as a core part of what they are. It's an Incan-inspired fantasy setting, called "Land of New Horizons" - where there is a huge empire, and the emperors of the past are wise mummies who still act to help their descendants - and ghosts along with other spirits are often appealed to for advice or aid. In historical Incan tradition, the emperors were considered immortal, and upon physical death, their mummies still were treated as if they were active - and had a palace and servants to attend them.

I haven't done anything with liches yet, but now I'm picturing a lich as a wizard in a tower who is consulted in some adventure.

Depends on the cosmological setup. If Necromancy is a means to an end - the way of the means matters.

WHY does necromancy exist at all? If the idea is that there are spirits and an afterworld, the nature of what "necromancy" is in the setting matters. If it's just speaking or communicating with the dead - it's less of an issue (but it's still an issue since the context of "spirit" needs defining too. Such as why does this state even exist vs. going past Go! to the Afterlife.)

If the force that allows necromancy as an "art" to exist at all, is corruptive - then your pathway to hell lays paved before you. All the good in the world will slowly eat away at the practitioner over a length of time. The question is when does that limit hit. Is it easy to practice? Is it seductive? Does it promise (truly or falsely) great possibilities for just a little bit more investment (and sacrifice?) - when does the promise of the greater good justify the evil means?

Very few fictional narratives of magic compare to these obvious tropes. And it's that way for a reason - death is the final state most people perceive (oddly many don't until it's way too late: see Darwin Awards). The control over this function of reality (however illusory) is on its face a very powerful proposition. How you wanna set those standards in your own setting is up to you. I find that at best it will highlight the worst aspects of people over time.

In normal fiction - necromancy is corruptive because ultimately it tends to lead people to believing they can cheat death - and the processes themselves that allow the cheating to happen requires great and evil acts.

Quote from: jhkim on November 09, 2021, 03:04:25 PMIn Tolkien, the Istari and the elves were all immortal.

And the Elves ruled and where the primary movers and shakers while there was more magic juju. Overall they still had a alien outlook on life.
And Istari are angels given rules not to interfere. And the most powerful of their number did and tried to take over the world.
And even then they where still organic creatures with a sense of touch, smell and taste.

What your talking about in LOTR are the Ring Wraiths. Those where living humans given immortality. Humans by and large very much fear death.

If becoming emperor means immortality, then you bet bloodline fueds would be ten times worse.

Anyway this doesn't mean your setting is bad. But even assuming a non-evil default outlook, immortality would fuck with a regular humans psychology. Immortality+loss of most sense and bodily desire would make most rabid.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 09, 2021, 03:08:04 PM

Quote from: jhkim on November 09, 2021, 03:04:25 PM

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on November 09, 2021, 02:46:35 PM

Quote from: jhkim on November 09, 2021, 02:39:17 PM"Land of New Horizons" - where there is a huge empire, and the emperors of the past are wise mummies who still act to help their descendants - and ghosts along with other spirits are often appealed to for advice or aid. In historical Incan tradition, the emperors were considered immortal, and upon physical death, their mummies still were treated as if they were active - and had a palace and servants to attend them.

Well if their immortal, why are they not in charge then? Why would a emperor with centuries of experience let some upstart child do anything?

Im not fundementally opposed to 'Good' undead, but if immortality is so common, it kinda takes the punch out of death, and thus the wind out of life.

In Tolkien, the Istari and the elves were all immortal. Elrond is over 6000 years old, despite being half-elf. So there are a lot more immortals running around in Middle Earth than in Land of New Horizons. And I don't think the immortality takes the wind out of life in his books. They are special and have a different perspective.

As for the emperors in New Horizons - they rule for a normal human lifetime, including marrying and having descendants. It's a tough job - and after their living body gives out, they retire to instead kibbitz from the sidelines - like Yoda and Kenobi.

Incompetent comparison. The Istari and the elves weren't human. Nor was Elrond (not entirely); he embraced his elven lineage.

You honestly think a ruler would be content to rule for a mere human lifetime and then retire, knowing full well he'll be transformed into a tougher form and live theoretically forever? What a load of crap.

I'd think that becoming an undead being might profoundly alter the beings thoughts/feelings/desires sufficiently that they might be more comparable to elves than to humans.

An undead emperor might step down under the logic that it makes them a bigger target.

The role of Emperor itself would probably become just a puppet position dictated by the elders (similarly to what happened in Japan during a period of time).

The elders would war amongst each other for the right thing to do.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 09, 2021, 03:08:04 PM
You honestly think a ruler would be content to rule for a mere human lifetime and then retire, knowing full well he'll be transformed into a tougher form and live theoretically forever? What a load of crap.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on November 09, 2021, 03:34:03 PM
Anyway this doesn't mean your setting is bad. But even assuming a non-evil default outlook, immortality would fuck with a regular humans psychology. Immortality+loss of most sense and bodily desire would make most rabid.

Ghostmaker - it sounds like you challenging what I think an immortal mummy would be like in real life. But this is frickin fantasy, and has nothing to do with what I think about logical extrapolation. It's not even my setting - it's my son's that I'm helping add some material to.

In the setting, the transformation of emperors is a holy process, overseen by the gods. I think it should be seen as akin to Yoda and Kenobi turning into Force ghosts. That didn't make them into fucked-up rabid spirits pining over their lack of bodies. Instead they were sources of wisdom and support for the living.

Quote from: jhkim on November 09, 2021, 04:08:27 PMIn the setting, the transformation of emperors is a holy process, overseen by the gods.

So they are not really their orginal people, but puppets for gods to give advice through. Well that solves that issue. So going against an elder is going against a gods will? Then why have an Emperor at all?

Stars Wars cosmology isn't really well thought out. But being a Force ghost meant more ascending to a higher plane, and most of the supplemental material made even showing up as a force ghost was a short period of duration type deal. They couldn't actually do anything, and the advice they could give was very limited. They where more a projection from heaven (talking to a spirit) then people who avoid facing the hounds of hell and rot inside a corpse's shell.

The second Ghost Yoda could call down force lightning-it made everything make no sense and indeed made him a psycho.

Edit: Also not everybody could/would become a force ghost.

Quote from: GhostmakerIt is an inherently wrong act to try to subvert the natural state of things and the cycle of life and death.

But evil in D&D is not inherently wrong. In facts it's equal cosmic force to Good, Law, and Chaos, all equal peers to each other, all eternal, and creating reality by mutual interactions. D&D elevates Evil to metaphysical status unknown to any sane religons.

Quote from: Shrieking BansheeIt varies on setting (generally it does require some sketchy components but not always human sacrifice), but If I had a quarter for every person that sacrificed others, convinced it was for greater good and noble intentions, I would be a billionaire.

"Il just sacrifice convicted criminals, they where going to die anyway. As a immortal, il be able to protect the country much better then the existing king'.

Dukes of Baator are impressed by your impeccable barrister logic, and cannot way for a day where you shall join their ranks.

Quote from: rytrasmiDon't vampires need to drink human blood and thereby kill people? Victim of a curse, sure...but the good thing to do would be to walk out into the sunlight: sacrifice yourself to save your village. No matter how kind or charming a vampire is, it's still evil due to pride or selfishness.

Primo, suicide is sin also Secondo - why do we assume you need to kill people by drinking their blood. Average adult human have quite a lot of blood in his veins, I think enough to fill tummies of like 8 vampires or something.

Quote from: Shrieking BansheeVampires are spirits puppeting corpses.

In some settings.

QuoteBut the D&D vampire drains levels,

As long as they feed on famous heroes they should be fine.

QuoteThe difference is that animals are non-sentient.

That's disputed claim.

QuoteYou honestly think a ruler would be content to rule for a mere human lifetime and then retire, knowing full well he'll be transformed into a tougher form and live theoretically forever? What a load of crap.

Those who refuse may end de-undeaded maybe.

QuoteSo they are not really their orginal people, but puppets for gods to give advice through. Well that solves that issue.

Quite the contrary. They were not original people while leaving their eternal essence trapped and tattered by vicious humours and passions of life. Turned into Wise Mummies they finally were free to exist as every rational souls should - unfettered by corruptive chaotic... life.

Quote from: Wrath of God on November 09, 2021, 04:29:00 PMDukes of Baator are impressed by your impeccable barrister logic, and cannot way for a day where you shall join their ranks.

Bad people generally aren't born that way. Pride cometh before the fall.


The just absolute issue with 'Good Undead' is that nobody thinks corpses are cool. Nobody wants to be a corpse. Corpses are never directly worshipped almost ever because they represent disease and decay. Nobody likes disease or decay. Societies with mummies or cadaver worship worship the spiritual representation of the person. Mummification is preservation to make the corpse less of a corpse.

The reason undead is almost universally evil, is because your turning somebody into a rotting body. A fate worse then death. A lich is a person crazy enough that the fear of death even drives them to the insane idea of becoming a walking corpse. A vampire is still being a walking corpse, just masquerading it with stolen life.

If I where to D&D-ify or literalize a corpse worshipping society and not have them be crazy, i would make them have animated momuments or ghostly memories or something. Something with a focus on the spiritual aspect of the person-not the rotting corporeal.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on November 09, 2021, 04:17:33 PM

Quote from: jhkim on November 09, 2021, 04:08:27 PMIn the setting, the transformation of emperors is a holy process, overseen by the gods.

So they are not really their orginal people, but puppets for gods to give advice through. Well that solves that issue. So going against an elder is going against a gods will? Then why have an Emperor at all?

As I see it, being a holy process doesn't mean that the target is turned into a mouthpiece for the gods. Holy processes include things like communion, confession, or investiture of a priest. In a fantasy setting, the process is divine magic and can give the target spiritual insight - but after the holy process is complete, the target still has free will. Someone may get a holy vision, and that vision will change how they think - but after the vision is over, they could still misinterpret the vision or become corrupt.

I'd say it's the same thing for New Horizon emperors. When their mortal body perishes, they undergo a ritual and have a divine vision that makes their mortal concerns seem small and petty. They still have free will - and they can still make mistakes or grow more corrupt later. Still, the experience will deeply influence and change them.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on November 09, 2021, 04:17:33 PM
Stars Wars cosmology isn't really well thought out. But being a Force ghost meant more ascending to a higher plane, and most of the supplemental material made even showing up as a force ghost was a short period of duration type deal. They couldn't actually do anything, and the advice they could give was very limited. They where more a projection from heaven (talking to a spirit) then people who avoid facing the hounds of hell and rot inside a corpse's shell.

I recall there also being supplementary material where they could affect things via the Force -- like Patrick Swayze lifting the penny in Ghost. And canonically, they aren't omniscient angels. In ROTJ, the Force ghosts turn out to be *wrong*. Kenobi and Yoda advice against it, but Luke ignores them and still tries to redeem his father - and he succeeds in spite of their advice.

That's how I see the past emperors. They aren't avoiding the hounds of hell - they are accepting their sacred duty, and talking to them is like talking to a spirit - they have had divine insight that ordinary mortals haven't. However, they aren't omniscient, and they can still be wrong or even be corrupted. But this is more like Tolkien than Game of Thrones -- nobles like Galadriel and Aragorn and such aren't all assholes just out for themselves. There are true believers, which makes sense since divine magic is more present.

Quote from: jhkim on November 09, 2021, 05:00:19 PMI'd say it's the same thing for New Horizon emperors. When their mortal body perishes, they undergo a ritual and have a divine vision that makes their mortal concerns seem small and petty. They still have free will - and they can still make mistakes or grow more corrupt later. Still, the experience will deeply influence and change them.

Now its just beggining to sound like brainwashing. Just brainwash the living Emperor then. It seems like a curse then, when your desires and ambitions are stripped away to live a senseless existence.

I feel this is bending over backwards to literalize the respect of mummies. No Egyptian emperor imagined themselves as a mummy in the afterlife. And I know less about South America, but I doubt any of them worshipped corpses directly, and more the spirit of the person.

I have seen settings with ancestors assisting the living that I liked, but their influence was always limited, and the older they got the more they bowed out of life as a whole. And none of them where undead.

Edit: If your god can grant you eternal life and enlightenment on the mortal plane, why not just go the extra 10% and just not make you a disease carrying corpse (just make your sterile or something).

QuoteI recall there also being supplementary material where they could affect things via the Force

Everything has been covered by supplemental material by one point in time (I use random creature generators to see if star wars has done it, and its true about 50% of the time). Most of it is crap and stupid.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on November 09, 2021, 04:58:54 PM
The just absolute issue with 'Good Undead' is that nobody thinks corpses are cool. Nobody wants to be a corpse. Corpses are never directly worshipped almost ever because they represent disease and decay. Nobody likes disease or decay. Societies with mummies or cadaver worship worship the spiritual representation of the person. Mummification is preservation to make the corpse less of a corpse.

The reason undead is almost universally evil, is because your turning somebody into a rotting body. A fate worse then death.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on November 09, 2021, 04:58:54 PM
If I where to D&D-ify or literalize a corpse worshipping society and not have them be crazy, i would make them have animated momuments or ghostly memories or something. Something with a focus on the spiritual aspect of the person-not the rotting corporeal.

But historically, Incans *did* venerate the mummified corpses of their past emperors. For them, an emperor becoming a living mummy was not seen as a horrific fate, but rather a holy duty. It's not just Incas - there are other cultures that have positive celebration of symbolic skulls, skeletons, and ghosts. I'd tend to agree that no one likes decay - that's why the corpses were mummified. But mummies, skulls, skeletons, and such were not symbols of disease and decay - they were reminders of beloved ancestors.

Europeans had parallel practices as well. Keeping close the body parts of saints was a very common practice in medieval Europe. That was the inspiration for the Teeth of Dahlver Nahl in the original DMG, a good artifact where you would put teeth of a dead holy cleric into your own mouth. Many early Christians believed in resurrection into one's previous dead body, so kept corpses preserved in dry crypts. In others, there would be piles of skulls with a cross as a holy site, like from this crypt in Paris.



This is going against the trend of original D&D and the majority of Western fantasy, but I think it does fit with Incan and other culture, and I think it's an interesting twist.

Not all undead feature decay. Spectral/ethereal undead don't, and neither do some preserved bodies, like the animus that was found in Greyhawk's Great Kingdom. Some forms of vampires.amd ghouls don't feature decayed bodies either.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on November 09, 2021, 05:09:25 PM
I feel this is bending over backwards to literalize the respect of mummies. No Egyptian emperor imagined themselves as a mummy in the afterlife. And I know less about South America, but I doubt any of them worshipped corpses directly, and more the spirit of the person.

No, the Incans really did venerate the mummified corpse. Here's one description from quick search, but it's well documented from many places.

QuoteIn 1533 the first Spaniards to reach Cusco, capital of the sprawling Inca Empire, discovered temples covered with gold plates, altars and fountains similarly glimmering and architecture whose stonework rivaled or surpassed anything comparable in Europe. But the greatest surprise came when two soldiers entered one well-constructed palace of a dead emperor and found that he and his deceased wife were—in the eyes of the Inca—still alive.

In the palace's inner sanctum they found an old woman wearing a gold mask, waving a fan to keep flies off the immobile pair. The couple were no longer breathing but sat upright, perfectly mummified. They and their attendants wanted for nothing: Family members interpreted their wishes and benefited from the wealth the dead still owned. During holy festivals the dead ancestors were paraded behind the living emperor, their history and achievements adding to those of the living.

See more at the source here: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/travel/fascinating-afterlife-perus-mummies-180956319/

Anyone still playing or defending Paizo games at this point is a cuck. Pure and simple. No further commentary necessary.

Quote from: jhkim on November 09, 2021, 05:34:23 PMNo, the Incans really did venerate the mummified corpse. Here's one description from quick search, but it's well documented from many places.

I feel thats a materialistic take on a spiritual thing.

Its like saying Jews worship paper, and a fantasy version of jews would have paper golems be their guides.