TheRPGSite

https://boundingintocomics.com/2021/12/21/pathfinder-tabletop-rpg-to-remove-slavery-from-our-game-and-setting-completely-will-provide-no-in-game-explanation-for-change/

All of because of one anonymous letter.

Then  again if these are the fans they listen too it's no real surprise:

https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43jjq?Direction-of-Community

It's too bad though as the rest of the forum is a decent place to visit.

I can't decide if this is dumber than WotC scrubbing stuff out of its monster lore or not.

What the fuck, Paizo? I knew you were a pack of woke morons, but maybe, just maybe, some of us would like to fight the evils of the world and not have them magically swept away by authorial fiat?

What's next? The perpetual friction between native Shoanti and other peoples in their lands gets vanished? Cheliax suddenly becomes sweetness and light again? Does Nidal somehow mysteriously stop being Zon-Kuthon's foothold in the world?

Pathetic.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on December 22, 2021, 10:14:34 AMWhat the fuck, Paizo? I knew you were a pack of woke morons, but maybe, just maybe, some of us would like to fight the evils of the world and not have them magically swept away by authorial fiat?

While people poo-pooed Golarion, I found it pretty fun for a anachronistic patchwork of kingdoms with problems. The 2nd ed version is so much more lifeless because the AP are cannonical and remove said problems.

This will have zero effect on my purchasing of Pathfinder products. The only one of which I bought in the last 5 years was the 2e core book (the player's one) on pdf. Didn't like it enough to buy anything else.

Sometimes a company gets so big that it starts to crumble beneath its own weight. This is good for small, competative game companies.  It leaves an opening to create something great.

We can accelerate this process by writing fake outrage letters to Baizuo, and Hazards-of-the-bro.  If it takes something so easy as this to topple these titans then we can surely beat them.

I mourn the tragedy of all the slaves in Golarion that lost their lives at the hands of their cruel masters. So much loss... so senseless.

Oh right. None of that is real except in the minds of morons.

Meanwhile... in Libya/China/North Korea/Pakistan/Mauritania/Liberia/Uganda/Congo/Ghana/Togo/Madagascar/Sudan and I could probably name a dozen other nations - slavery in one form or another (child/female sex-trade, indentured servitude, outright slavery etc) goes on without a peep.

But THANK Galactus we finally freed the people of Golarion. WHEW.

I can't help but wonder the timing of the announcement to try and use it as a smokescreen for their past transgressions.

First one employee refused to sleep in the room with a trans employee and then one of the guys in charge doxxed a poster by name on the boards. No matter what they said or claimed to do the Woke Mob was not satisfied and now this. Makes you wonder if they hope the mob will forget the first two. Guess what they won't

Good news is you know where to spend your money. I do own some paizo pdfs but won't spend a dime again.

QuoteFirst one employee refused to sleep in the room with a trans employee

Now TBH female employee agreed to sleep in the room with a trans-woman employee, but Powers That Be said it's against firm politics or smth.

It's time to write Paizo a letter about how it is problematic that they continue to profit by selling products featuring slavery.

Goodbye Paizo's back catalogue.

The Paizo forums are a little heated at the moment. It seems not all of Paizo's customers agree with the decision.

I bet $50 that it's a troll from 4chan.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 22, 2021, 02:29:42 PM
I bet $50 that it's a troll from 4chan.

I would argue, but considering some of the insane bullshit 4chan has managed to push into the collective unconsciousness...

The most significant quote is this one: "because there was no rule to disallow it, the gamemaster and other players at the table had no way to stop them."

A GM can do nothing unless it is specifically spelled out in the rules. That's the mindset these people have and it's why they insist on changing everything.

Well we talk about GM's of Convention Plays. Organised Society, so yes GM's there are limited by Society.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on December 22, 2021, 02:47:05 PM
The most significant quote is this one: "because there was no rule to disallow it, the gamemaster and other players at the table had no way to stop them."

A GM can do nothing unless it is specifically spelled out in the rules. That's the mindset these people have and it's why they insist on changing everything.

Someone hasn't read PF2E Core page 486 under "The Pathfinder Baseline":

The following acts should never be performed by player characters:

• Torture
• ...
• Owning slaves or profiting from the slave trade
• ...

Quote from: Palleon on December 22, 2021, 03:00:35 PM

Quote from: hedgehobbit on December 22, 2021, 02:47:05 PM
The most significant quote is this one: "because there was no rule to disallow it, the gamemaster and other players at the table had no way to stop them."

A GM can do nothing unless it is specifically spelled out in the rules. That's the mindset these people have and it's why they insist on changing everything.

Someone hasn't read PF2E Core page 486 under "The Pathfinder Baseline":

The following acts should never be performed by player characters:

• Torture
• ...
• Owing slaves or profiting from the slave trade
• ...

So basically you're not allowed to play evil campaigns?

QuoteSo basically you're not allowed to play evil campaigns?

Not even Lawful Neutral campaigns.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 22, 2021, 03:01:53 PM

Quote from: Palleon on December 22, 2021, 03:00:35 PM

Quote from: hedgehobbit on December 22, 2021, 02:47:05 PM
The most significant quote is this one: "because there was no rule to disallow it, the gamemaster and other players at the table had no way to stop them."

A GM can do nothing unless it is specifically spelled out in the rules. That's the mindset these people have and it's why they insist on changing everything.

Someone hasn't read PF2E Core page 486 under "The Pathfinder Baseline":

The following acts should never be performed by player characters:

• Torture
• ...
• Owing slaves or profiting from the slave trade
• ...

So basically you're not allowed to play evil campaigns?

They advocate Session Zero.  You would update your baseline during this for something outside the default.

Session Zero is in fact generally good concept.
But if you're advocating it - maybe stop virtue-signalling own orthodoxy.

Quote from: Palleon on December 22, 2021, 03:00:35 PM
Someone hasn't read PF2E Core page 486 under "The Pathfinder Baseline":

The following acts should never be performed by player characters:

• Torture
• ...
• Owning slaves or profiting from the slave trade
• ...

OK then Paizo. Il just execute all my prisoners. Or send them to die in brutal medieval prisons where if they are not worked to death, the state might maybe give them a quick execution if their lucky. And entertainment for the town if only somewhat lucky.

Very ethical.

There was different kinds of slavery in the past, and some of it was a response to the brutal times and reality where generally criminals where just executed for even mild crimes because the state didn't have any sort of rehabilitation resources. So slavery was an extreme form of debt repayment.

How dare they whitewash a pseudo historically based game!  It's just like they're saying slavery never existed in real life!  If we remove all the bad stuff from our history, how do we learn to do better in the future!!!???!!11!!1!!




(Special note for any idiots reading this - it's sarcasm, duh)

Quote from: Mishihari on December 22, 2021, 05:05:59 PM
How dare they whitewash a pseudo historically based game!  It's just like they're saying slavery never existed in real life!  If we remove all the bad stuff from our history, how do we learn to do better in the future!!!???!!11!!1!!




(Special note for any idiots reading this - it's sarcasm, duh)

Many people, myself included, don't like being lectured to by the self-important sensitives of the world. Slavery was an exceedingly common practice and often formed a significant part of ancient and medieval societies. Removing it from a fantasy game that has many medieval/ancient trappings is just weak. It's clearly done only to appeal to "modern sensitivities." Yet, according to those same self-important sensitives, it's still perfectly alright to stab people in the face, cut out their guts, burn an enemy's house down while he's asleep inside, and set out to generally murder, pillage, and loot.

Does anyone here support slavery? No. Should we be treated like children by the people who make the products we buy? Also, no.

This type of cleansing is done by people who can't distinguish fantasy from reality and think that everyone else has the same mental defect.

Quote from: Abraxus on December 22, 2021, 12:01:53 PM
I can't help but wonder the timing of the announcement to try and use it as a smokescreen for their past transgressions.

First one employee refused to sleep in the room with a trans employee and then one of the guys in charge doxxed a poster by name on the boards. No matter what they said or claimed to do the Woke Mob was not satisfied and now this. Makes you wonder if they hope the mob will forget the first two. Guess what they won't

This sleeping in the same hotel room is a foreign concept to me.  What shit company requires employees on business travel to bunk together?!?! I've literally never heard of this being done by any reputable company (whether a 10 person mom-and-pop, or a Fortune 500 multinational).

Yes, I've seen companies require receipts; require expenses to be actual and reasonable, or to refuse to consider travel hours on the weekend to be paid hours. I've never seen any company ever require employees to room together.  Sure, in extraordinary circumstances (such as when we had people rent a U-Haul truck as a rental car to drive home from a business trip when 9/11 happened), you might have to. But not as a routine thing.  Any company that would require this is not worth working for.

Paizo cannot allow WOTC to one-up them, in the Woke purity spiral that is underway.  It's a desperate race to the bottom, to see who can achieve bankruptcy first.  Paizo will get there first, because WOTC has deeper pockets.

Pathfinder 1st Edition still exists, and always will.  My book shelf cries out, against the Paizo of today.

Quote from: tenbones on December 22, 2021, 11:45:00 AM
I mourn the tragedy of all the slaves in Golarion that lost their lives at the hands of their cruel masters. So much loss... so senseless.

Oh right. None of that is real except in the minds of morons.

Meanwhile... in Libya/China/North Korea/Pakistan/Mauritania/Liberia/Uganda/Congo/Ghana/Togo/Madagascar/Sudan and I could probably name a dozen other nations - slavery in one form or another (child/female sex-trade, indentured servitude, outright slavery etc) goes on without a peep.

But THANK Galactus we finally freed the people of Golarion. WHEW.

Hell if you're talking sex trafficking it is alive and well in 1st world countries. It is illegal, but it is still a thriving industry.

Quote from: rytrasmi on December 22, 2021, 05:21:39 PM

Many people, myself included, don't like being lectured to by the self-important sensitives of the world. Slavery was an exceedingly common practice and often formed a significant part of ancient and medieval societies. Removing it from a fantasy game that has many medieval/ancient trappings is just weak. It's clearly done only to appeal to "modern sensitivities." Yet, according to those same self-important sensitives, it's still perfectly alright to stab people in the face, cut out their guts, burn an enemy's house down while he's asleep inside, and set out to generally murder, pillage, and loot.

Does anyone here support slavery? No. Should we be treated like children by the people who make the products we buy? Also, no.

This type of cleansing is done by people who can't distinguish fantasy from reality and think that everyone else has the same mental defect.

Well said.

Is necromancy also canceled?  What is that if not slavery with extra steps?  How about Charm, Suggestion, and Dominate spells?  How about Bards using their high Charisma to seduce everything?  How is that not rape?  Everything is problematic once you start down this slope. 

Quote from: Hakdov on December 22, 2021, 07:53:24 PM
Is necromancy also canceled?  What is that if not slavery with extra steps?  How about Charm, Suggestion, and Dominate spells?  How about Bards using their high Charisma to seduce everything?  How is that not rape?  Everything is problematic once you start down this slope.

You should write an anonymous "open letter" about each of those and get some results.

Quote from: Hakdov on December 22, 2021, 07:53:24 PM
Is necromancy also canceled?  What is that if not slavery with extra steps?  How about Charm, Suggestion, and Dominate spells?  How about Bards using their high Charisma to seduce everything?  How is that not rape?  Everything is problematic once you start down this slope. 

Yes, the parts I elided from the quote above do mention rape and reprehensible use of magic.

I am not saying I agree with their views, but it's covered in the current edition of Pathfinder's standard mode of play.

Quote from: Hakdov on December 22, 2021, 07:53:24 PM
Is necromancy also canceled?  What is that if not slavery with extra steps?  How about Charm, Suggestion, and Dominate spells?  How about Bards using their high Charisma to seduce everything?  How is that not rape?  Everything is problematic once you start down this slope.

They'll get to those eventually. War, combat, and violence will also be classified as "problematic".

Quote from: Palleon on December 22, 2021, 07:58:35 PM
Yes, the parts I elided from the quote above do mention rape and reprehensible use of magic.

I am not saying I agree with their views, but it's covered in the current edition of Pathfinder's standard mode of play.

Thanks, Palleon. Here's the full text from quick search:

QuoteYou might find that your players don't have much to say on the topic of objectionable content, and just assume that general societal mores will keep the most uncomfortable topics out of the game. That's not always enough, as that approach relies on shared assumptions that aren't always accurate. The following is a set of basic assumptions that works for many groups, which you can modify to fit your preferences and those of the other players.

• Bloodshed, injuries, and even dismemberment might be described. However, excessive descriptions of gore and cruelty should be avoided.
• Romantic and sexual relationships can happen in the game, but players should avoid being overly suggestive. Sex always happens "off-screen." Because attempts at initiating a relationship between player characters can be uncomfortably similar to one player hitting on another, this should generally be avoided (and is entirely inappropriate when playing with strangers).
• Avoid excessively gross or scatological descriptions.

The following acts should never be performed by player characters:

• Torture
• Rape, nonconsensual sexual contact, or sexual threats
• Harm to children, including sexual abuse
• Owning slaves or profiting from the slave trade
• Reprehensible uses of mind-control magic

Villains might engage in such acts, but they won't happen "on-screen" or won't be described in detail. Many groups choose to not have villains engage in these activities at all, keeping these reprehensible acts out of mind entirely.

Source: https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=488

That's not too different from my own practice. For example, when I ran my vikings game, I avoided touching on rape, pederasty, and slavery - which were common among historically raiding vikings. I could handwave that they were happening but we just weren't discussing them - but it wasn't functionally different from just saying they just didn't happen. Roughly the same norms have been true for non-historical fantasy.

Pathfinder 2nd Edition, and the "everything is a feat now" style of D&D; went in the opposite direction, of what i like about D&D.  I don't care if they drive Pathfinder 2E straight into a deep ditch. 

They have a tremendous amount of 1st Edition Pathfinder material out in print already.  The used market can provide a lot of material to the old guard, who no longer want to support their lunacy.  Your hard copy bookshelf doesn't have to bow the knee to Caesar.

So Paizo is pro-slavery? I mean most of their adventurers that feature slavery pit the slaver types as bad guys?

This reminds me of TSR removing demons & devils when Gygax should have gone offensive and told the ignorant religious folks that the demons & devils are bad guys intended to be defeated and only an idiot would think it was otherwise.

-=-=-

So are we getting stuff we don't like taken out of RPGs because they make us uncomfortable?

How about transgenderism? Socialism? People in wheelchairs? Those things make me feel oogy and I'd like WOTC to remove them from RPGs post haste or they are istaphobes and I will pitch a fit.

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on December 22, 2021, 10:42:31 AM
We can accelerate this process by writing fake outrage letters to Baizuo, and Hazards-of-the-bro.  If it takes something so easy as this to topple these titans then we can surely beat them.

THIS is a wonderful idea.

In the past, I used to be wary of the "acceleration-ism" concept, but I've come around seeing it's worth. While "we had to destroy the village to save it" sounded insane during the previous era of sanity, it takes on a new level of wisdom in an age of cultural insanity.

Quote from: 3catcircus on December 22, 2021, 05:30:55 PM
This sleeping in the same hotel room is a foreign concept to me.  What shit company requires employees on business travel to bunk together?!?!

Surprisingly common in my experience. Especially for small companies going to trade shows in expensive US cities.

However, this Paizo case sounds like a female employee being forced to share a room with a male with a penis, delusions and a dress. AKA, the exact situation in California's women's prisons resulting in a record number of rapes.

Quote from: Hakdov on December 22, 2021, 07:53:24 PM
Is necromancy also canceled?  What is that if not slavery with extra steps?  How about Charm, Suggestion, and Dominate spells?  How about Bards using their high Charisma to seduce everything?  How is that not rape?  Everything is problematic once you start down this slope.

1) Stop noticing things! You're ruining the hobby! :)

2) Necromancy as slavery is a notable concept I've explored - its why clerics are so anti-undead, they're freeing the souls trapped by necromancers.

3) When have spells like Charm, Dominate and Suggestion ever NOT been distasteful uses of magic? You're forcing a creature to do something against its will. Definitely black magic.

Quote from: Spinachcat on December 23, 2021, 03:38:12 AM

Quote from: 3catcircus on December 22, 2021, 05:30:55 PM
This sleeping in the same hotel room is a foreign concept to me.  What shit company requires employees on business travel to bunk together?!?!

Surprisingly common in my experience. Especially for small companies going to trade shows in expensive US cities.

However, this Paizo case sounds like a female employee being forced to share a room with a male with a penis, delusions and a dress. AKA, the exact situation in California's women's prisons resulting in a record number of rapes.

The 'scandal' was the opposite, they would not let the trans and the woman share a room, likely from fear of liability. The woman apparently wanted to, but it's a woman's prerogative to change her mind.

So... now that slavery had never existed in Paizoland... all those wars were about states' rights after all?  ;)

Quote from: Melan on December 23, 2021, 07:39:00 AM
So... now that slavery had never existed in Paizoland... all those wars were about states' rights after all?  ;)

That's the wonderful thing about them tearing down all the confederate statues - soon, people will deny the very existence of slavery and the civil war. 

Well, to quote Thor Ragnarok

Sir!  The slaves are revolting!

I don't like that word.

What? Revolting?

No, the other one, I prefer "prisoners with jobs."

Quote from: S'mon on December 23, 2021, 06:51:49 AMThe 'scandal' was the opposite, they would not let the trans and the woman share a room, likely from fear of liability. The woman apparently wanted to, but it's a woman's prerogative to change her mind.

Baizou was doing something sane? I am stunned.

If employees of opposite sex choose to bunk up together, that's cool...after the company gets their liability document signed.

Quote from: jhkim on December 22, 2021, 08:17:12 PM

Quote from: Palleon on December 22, 2021, 07:58:35 PM
Yes, the parts I elided from the quote above do mention rape and reprehensible use of magic.

I am not saying I agree with their views, but it's covered in the current edition of Pathfinder's standard mode of play.

Thanks, Palleon. Here's the full text from quick search:

QuoteYou might find that your players don't have much to say on the topic of objectionable content, and just assume that general societal mores will keep the most uncomfortable topics out of the game. That's not always enough, as that approach relies on shared assumptions that aren't always accurate. The following is a set of basic assumptions that works for many groups, which you can modify to fit your preferences and those of the other players.

• Bloodshed, injuries, and even dismemberment might be described. However, excessive descriptions of gore and cruelty should be avoided.
• Romantic and sexual relationships can happen in the game, but players should avoid being overly suggestive. Sex always happens "off-screen." Because attempts at initiating a relationship between player characters can be uncomfortably similar to one player hitting on another, this should generally be avoided (and is entirely inappropriate when playing with strangers).
• Avoid excessively gross or scatological descriptions.

The following acts should never be performed by player characters:

• Torture
• Rape, nonconsensual sexual contact, or sexual threats
• Harm to children, including sexual abuse
• Owning slaves or profiting from the slave trade
• Reprehensible uses of mind-control magic

Villains might engage in such acts, but they won't happen "on-screen" or won't be described in detail. Many groups choose to not have villains engage in these activities at all, keeping these reprehensible acts out of mind entirely.

Source: https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=488

That's not too different from my own practice. For example, when I ran my vikings game, I avoided touching on rape, pederasty, and slavery - which were common among historically raiding vikings. I could handwave that they were happening but we just weren't discussing them - but it wasn't functionally different from just saying they just didn't happen. Roughly the same norms have been true for non-historical fantasy.

The most troubling thing is the last sentence where they describe not having villains engage in villainous behavior.

That's the equivalent of the ubiquitous sticking your fingers in the ears and going "La-La-La I can't hear you."

That's a *major* problem of the wokerati in general - pretending that something doesn't exist so that you don't have to actually confront it head-on.

Woke crowd: Give us games about punching Nazis! We love games about fighting Nazis.

Also woke crowd: Cancel this GM for including war crimes, ethnic cleansings, racism and terrors of modern warfare in my game about punching Nazis. I'm triggered.

"Reprehensible use of magic". This reminded me of game. DM is randomly rolling for spells in the captured spellbook of a wizard.
Hold Person
Grease
Enlarge
Silence
and some others
It was basically like seeing someone at Wal-Mart buying duct tape and zip ties, mask and gloves. Yes, jokes were made and laughs were had and we are terrible people but come on.

It is mind boggling that they are trying to micro-manage what happens at the customers table.

Perhaps Paizo will provide us with a game, wherein player characters and monsters can all be nice to each other?  All Bestiary Monster Entries will now read:

Alignment: Nice

I do have some good news. Erik Mona clarified his statement. It seems that what's actually happening is that products in the future will not be focusing on slavery, but that they are not going to just have it disappear; it's just going to be deep in the background.

Quote from: Ruprecht on December 23, 2021, 10:56:26 PM
It is mind boggling that they are trying to micro-manage what happens at the customers table.

The default assumptions are really based around the Pathfinder Society organized play.  In that context with mostly strangers around a table in a public space, these are not egregious.  Your are free to say yeah that's dumb at your own table when getting started.

Quote from: Jam The MF on December 22, 2021, 05:35:35 PM
Paizo cannot allow WOTC to one-up them, in the Woke purity spiral that is underway.  It's a desperate race to the bottom, to see who can achieve bankruptcy first.  Paizo will get there first, because WOTC has deeper pockets.

WOTC doesnt have as deep pockets as one might think. Hasbro has had WOTC on a tight budget leash after the fuck-ups of 4e and its unlikely they loosened the dogs collar to pre-4e days even after 5es success.

But probably still more than Paizo has. Bemusing that these two companies are their own worst enemy.

Liability issues lol try telling that to the mentality deranged on the Paizo forums. They will with the blessing of the mods call you some kind of ist or phobe.

Nuance is a bad word to them:  https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43jne?Is-nuance-a-bad-word-now

Where they show they just want an echo chamber: https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43jjq?Direction-of-Community

Mutual Masturbotary circle jerk:   https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43jnp?Suggestion-for-mods-please-add-suffix-to-the

SJW public service announcement:  https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43iuv?Intolerance-is-NOT-welcome-here

What started the whole transphobia panic :  https://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo6shvp?Paizo-Leadership-Team-Update#discuss

Quote from: Abraxus on December 24, 2021, 07:23:33 AM
Liability issues lol try telling that to the mentality deranged on the Paizo forums. They will with the blessing of the mods call you some kind of ist or phobe.

Nuance is a bad word to them:  https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43jne?Is-nuance-a-bad-word-now

Where they show they just want an echo chamber: https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43jjq?Direction-of-Community

Mutual Masturbotary circle jerk:   https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43jnp?Suggestion-for-mods-please-add-suffix-to-the

SJW public service announcement:  https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43iuv?Intolerance-is-NOT-welcome-here

What started the whole transphobia panic :  https://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo6shvp?Paizo-Leadership-Team-Update#discuss

Holy crap! There isn't enough popcorn in the world for me to eat as I watch these woke-ass morons self-destruct.

Quote from: Abraxus on December 24, 2021, 07:23:33 AM
Intolerance-is-NOT-welcome-here

I feel really concerned about whoever titled this thread without recognizing the screaming irony.

I was just telling my wife that the ones that harp diversity diversity diversity! forget the most important diverse thing we need as the human race and that is diverse in thought.

Without different viewpoints, all you have is an echo chamber.   

They can't see the forest because they are too busy burning it down wondering where all the tree's and the furry little animals are at.....

Quote from: Krugus on December 24, 2021, 12:07:26 PM
I was just telling my wife that the ones that harp diversity diversity diversity! forget the most important diverse thing we need as the human race and that is diverse in thought.

Without different viewpoints, all you have is an echo chamber.   

They can't see the forest because they are too busy burning it down wondering where all the tree's and the furry little animals are at.....

As soon as one tries to push for a different viewpoint at least on that site. Your a bona fide Nazi, racist, misogynistic, transphobic, homophobic person. So no way to win. 

I'm sitting here with popcorn enjoying the entertainment. Honestly, I'd love it if the WotC division and Paizo would implode. It would do more for the health of rpg's than anything else, in my opinion. Sometimes a fire in the forest is what is needed to allow new growth.

I'd feel bad for the folks who need their jobs to provide food and shelter obviously so it's easy for me to say that. But.... Cheers

Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on December 24, 2021, 01:03:53 PMIt would do more for the health of rpg's than anything else, in my opinion. Sometimes a fire in the forest is what is needed to allow new growth.

Or sometimes its like a pillar that gives out and crushes all the other tenants. Id say most people get into TRPGs from D&D name branding. Without those two, id wager the next big thing would be GW and Warhammer. Your replacing one scumcorp for another.

I am just glad that I bought a copy of Primeval Thule when I did.  There's slavery all over that setting.  Slavers are one of the main antagonists.

The kind of "gamers" that WotC is bringing into the hobby have no value to the long term health of the hobby. WotC has shit the bed and now draws people who enjoy sniffing farts.

I will argue that the hobby has ALWAYS drawn in the most new good gamers by the actions of good gamers who run good games.

It's not rocket science. Get invited to a new event you never tried before and that new event turns out to be great fun with a group of fun people and...how shocking...you get excited about attending their next event, and the next, and then you want to host your own.

But that's about growing the hobby, not the industry. They are not the same, nor as intertwined as people think.

For hobbyists, we really only need the hobby to survive (and the hobby includes all the small press kids selling their homebrews).

From what I heard, Wotc is looking into some kind of lifestyle brand.
If true they may not actually care about growing the hobby we know.

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on December 24, 2021, 07:22:54 PM
I am just glad that I bought a copy of Primeval Thule when I did.  There's slavery all over that setting.  Slavers are one of the main antagonists.

My players LOVE kicking Marg around! They're about to meet that Margish princess who wants to reform the city. Will be interesting to see if they divert from their current quest (to assassinate a new Great Kal rising on the Narthan Highlands) to help her out.

Quote from: S'mon on December 25, 2021, 04:23:27 AM

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on December 24, 2021, 07:22:54 PM
I am just glad that I bought a copy of Primeval Thule when I did.  There's slavery all over that setting.  Slavers are one of the main antagonists.

My players LOVE kicking Marg around! They're about to meet that Margish princess who wants to reform the city. Will be interesting to see if they divert from their current quest (to assassinate a new Great Kal rising on the Narthan Highlands) to help her out.

I follow your blog.  It is a pleasure to read about these games you run.

I have mostly moved over to Discord these days - I can PM you a link to server if you like?

Quote from: Mind Crime on December 23, 2021, 09:54:53 PM
"Reprehensible use of magic". This reminded me of game. DM is randomly rolling for spells in the captured spellbook of a wizard.
Hold Person
Grease
Enlarge
Silence
and some others
It was basically like seeing someone at Wal-Mart buying duct tape and zip ties, mask and gloves. Yes, jokes were made and laughs were had and we are terrible people but come on.

Don't feel bad. My group would've been making all the same jokes.

Quote from: Spinachcat on December 24, 2021, 08:57:04 PM
The kind of "gamers" that WotC is bringing into the hobby have no value to the long term health of the hobby. WotC has shit the bed and now draws people who enjoy sniffing farts.

Um, wrong thread?

Quote from: Fergurg on December 24, 2021, 02:36:20 AM
I do have some good news. Erik Mona clarified his statement. It seems that what's actually happening is that products in the future will not be focusing on slavery, but that they are not going to just have it disappear; it's just going to be deep in the background.

Ahh, so they will memory hole slavery in Golarion by simply never mentioning it again, rather than go through the trouble of editing all their past material.

Given their current circumstances, I can see how they would embrace the solution that will take the least effort.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on December 24, 2021, 01:41:11 PM

Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on December 24, 2021, 01:03:53 PMIt would do more for the health of rpg's than anything else, in my opinion. Sometimes a fire in the forest is what is needed to allow new growth.

Or sometimes its like a pillar that gives out and crushes all the other tenants. Id say most people get into TRPGs from D&D name branding. Without those two, id wager the next big thing would be GW and Warhammer. Your replacing one scumcorp for another.

Although Baizuo and WotC are in the process of self-destruction, (With Baizuo seemingly the more eager of the two.) It will still take several years before we see the fruits of the seeds they are currently sowing.

GW has largely been disinterested in WFRP, farming it out to 3rd party companies and collecting the license fee's. I don't see that changing anytime in the future. (It just doesn't bring in enough mini's sales to keep them overly interested.)

I tend to believe that someone will fill that void though.

It is not obvious now who that will be, but I still think that it is more likely someone will step up rather than just walk away from a 'power vacuume' that a failed D&D would leave behind.

If even Zweihander can manage to get into book stores, there is hope for the future.

...I didn't intend to become a regular here. Retired Rafe is retired from online discussions.

...That said, the stupidity of this topic makes my fingers itch:

https://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo6shvp&page=17?Paizo-Leadership-Team-Update#815

So, I don't play PF, and I only have very cursory knowledge of the setting. From what I learned in the above link and in other similar sources, the core problem seems to have been this:

An adventure (or Adventure Path) seems to have featured a scenario in which slaves first rise up against their masters, but then make their peace with them, and take over the defense of the city in exchange for their legal freedom. Spartacus fights Rome first, and with all the fervor from the raunchy TV series from a few years ago, but then decides to make a deal, voluntarily puts himself and his troops back into the service of the former slavers again (like, back to full we-are-not-people-we-are-things-status) and only then proceeds to fight the nasty enemy of the slavers for them. The return to slavery is a constituting element of the story as presented. (Haven't found out how the story is supposed to end, yet.)

...And that, if true, is just AMAZING. Current US political issues notwithstanding, I can hardly think of a more stupid way to treat the topic in a PG-13 sword-and-sorcery setting. Like, holy shit.

Imagine being the standard DM, and having to sell this idea to your Black girlfriend, roomie, gym pal, or whatever. That gaming group is probably not gonna last very long after that, as are your relationships to those people. Again: Hooooly shit. Paizo doesn't make games that interest me, usually. But they have experienced pros in command, usually. How in all the hells could this happen?

In the 1980s, Robert Asprin created "Thieves' World", and slavery and people being objectified is a big thing there. And guess what? - Half through the books, the city is overrun by an enemy army, and the former slavers get their payback this way. Brilliant, nuanced, pitch-black dark way of treating the topic. 35 years later, we get this shit. What has happened to the hobby, my-oh-my?!

Quote from: Rafael on December 25, 2021, 04:28:58 PM
...I didn't intend to become a regular here. Retired Rafe is retired from online discussions.

...That said, the stupidity of this topic makes my fingers itch:

https://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo6shvp&page=17?Paizo-Leadership-Team-Update#815

So, I don't play PF, and I only have very cursory knowledge of the setting. From what I learned in the above link and in other similar sources, the core problem seems to have been this:

An adventure (or Adventure Path) seems to have featured a scenario in which slaves first rise up against their masters, but then make their peace with them, and take over the defense of the city in exchange for their legal freedom. Spartacus fights Rome first, and with all the fervor from the raunchy TV series from a few years ago, but then decides to make a deal, voluntarily puts himself and his troops back into the service of the former slavers again (like, back to full we-are-not-people-we-are-things-status) and only then proceeds to fight the nasty enemy of the slavers for them. The return to slavery is a constituting element of the story as presented. (Haven't found out how the story is supposed to end, yet.)

...And that, if true, is just AMAZING. Current US political issues notwithstanding, I can hardly think of a more stupid way to treat the topic in a PG-13 sword-and-sorcery setting. Like, holy shit.

Imagine being the standard DM, and having to sell this idea to your Black girlfriend, roomie, gym pal, or whatever. That gaming group is probably not gonna last very long after that, as are your relationships to those people. Again: Hooooly shit. Paizo doesn't make games that interest me, usually. But they have experienced pros in command, usually. How in all the hells could this happen?

In the 1980s, Robert Asprin created "Thieves' World", and slavery and people being objectified is a big thing there. And guess what? - Half through the books, the city is overrun by an enemy army, and the former slavers get their payback this way. Brilliant, nuanced, pitch-black dark way of treating the topic. 35 years later, we get this shit. What has happened to the hobby, my-oh-my?!

I wonder if they were trying to go for something akin to how black troops were recruited during the American Civil War?

Still, boy howdy I'd hate to try and sell that plotline to ANYONE.

Oh no!  Who will my PCs fight if they cant fight evil white female slavers?

One start to think what the end-goal of the woke products will be if there are no antagonists, no monsters, no conflicts.

Are the Players adventurers whose greatest deeds will be to save kittens down from trees?

Quote from: Wntrlnd on December 25, 2021, 07:41:07 PM
One start to think what the end-goal of the woke products will be if there are no antagonists, no monsters, no conflicts.

Are the Players adventurers whose greatest deeds will be to save kittens down from trees?

The adventurers that find common ground with the misunderstood bad guy and solve the problem peacefully and equitably are the true heroes!

Quote from: hedgehobbit on December 25, 2021, 07:49:34 PM

Quote from: Wntrlnd on December 25, 2021, 07:41:07 PM
One start to think what the end-goal of the woke products will be if there are no antagonists, no monsters, no conflicts.

Are the Players adventurers whose greatest deeds will be to save kittens down from trees?

The adventurers that find common ground with the misunderstood bad guy and solve the problem peacefully and equitably are the true heroes!

Unless the bad guys are "oppressors", in which case all bets are off.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 26, 2021, 07:43:55 AM

Quote from: hedgehobbit on December 25, 2021, 07:49:34 PM

Quote from: Wntrlnd on December 25, 2021, 07:41:07 PM
One start to think what the end-goal of the woke products will be if there are no antagonists, no monsters, no conflicts.

Are the Players adventurers whose greatest deeds will be to save kittens down from trees?

The adventurers that find common ground with the misunderstood bad guy and solve the problem peacefully and equitably are the true heroes!

Unless the bad guys are "oppressors", in which case all bets are off.

You mean white people, right?  They can be slaughtered without consequence in wokeRPG...

Quote from: Eirikrautha on December 26, 2021, 09:22:10 AM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 26, 2021, 07:43:55 AM

Quote from: hedgehobbit on December 25, 2021, 07:49:34 PM

Quote from: Wntrlnd on December 25, 2021, 07:41:07 PM
One start to think what the end-goal of the woke products will be if there are no antagonists, no monsters, no conflicts.

Are the Players adventurers whose greatest deeds will be to save kittens down from trees?

The adventurers that find common ground with the misunderstood bad guy and solve the problem peacefully and equitably are the true heroes!

Unless the bad guys are "oppressors", in which case all bets are off.

You mean white people, right?  They can be slaughtered without consequence in wokeRPG...

I think the snowflakes are moving more to a position where even the existence of oppressors who need slaughtering is triggering. Hence the Paizo situation, and many other works becoming increasingly bland. I can't get over how Achtung! Cthulu's Nazis never actually seem to do anything horrible. You have to go back to the 1970s -80s source material to de-blandify the setting. And this now seems ubiquitous. It's good to punch Nazis, but we mustn't depict the Nazis doing anything that merits punching them. They're not even allowed swastikas any more.

It all converges on a giant bowl of Kool Aid.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 26, 2021, 07:43:55 AM

Quote from: hedgehobbit on December 25, 2021, 07:49:34 PM

Quote from: Wntrlnd on December 25, 2021, 07:41:07 PM
One start to think what the end-goal of the woke products will be if there are no antagonists, no monsters, no conflicts.

Are the Players adventurers whose greatest deeds will be to save kittens down from trees?

The adventurers that find common ground with the misunderstood bad guy and solve the problem peacefully and equitably are the true heroes!

Unless the bad guys are "oppressors", in which case all bets are off.

That's where the mystery part of the adventure comes into play. Trying to figure out how white men are responsible: did their xenophobia cause them to ruthlessly murder the poor monster's children? did their toxic masculinity force them to hunt monsters for sport? did their greed cause them to destroy the monster's natural habitat through unsustainable farming methods?

The possibilities are endless.

It's all about identity, not action. Nazis are evil because they are Nazis. The PC is a hero because the character sheet says so. Action causes conflict and unleashes the narrative. That's "problematic." Backstory and identity are safe and controllable. You can still have slavers; they just can't be depicted doing slavery.

Quote from: S'mon on December 26, 2021, 09:47:28 AM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on December 26, 2021, 09:22:10 AM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 26, 2021, 07:43:55 AM

Quote from: hedgehobbit on December 25, 2021, 07:49:34 PM

Quote from: Wntrlnd on December 25, 2021, 07:41:07 PM
One start to think what the end-goal of the woke products will be if there are no antagonists, no monsters, no conflicts.

Are the Players adventurers whose greatest deeds will be to save kittens down from trees?

The adventurers that find common ground with the misunderstood bad guy and solve the problem peacefully and equitably are the true heroes!

Unless the bad guys are "oppressors", in which case all bets are off.

You mean white people, right?  They can be slaughtered without consequence in wokeRPG...

I think the snowflakes are moving more to a position where even the existence of oppressors who need slaughtering is triggering. Hence the Paizo situation, and many other works becoming increasingly bland. I can't get over how Achtung! Cthulu's Nazis never actually seem to do anything horrible. You have to go back to the 1970s -80s source material to de-blandify the setting. And this now seems ubiquitous. It's good to punch Nazis, but we mustn't depict the Nazis doing anything that merits punching them. They're not even allowed swastikas any more.

But but but?!?! To hear the antifa thugs, everyone who isn't out burning and looting is a Nazi that deserves punching.

Quote from: S'mon on December 26, 2021, 09:47:28 AMI can't get over how Achtung! Cthulu's Nazis never actually seem to do anything horrible. You have to go back to the 1970s -80s source material to de-blandify the setting. And this now seems ubiquitous. It's good to punch Nazis, but we mustn't depict the Nazis doing anything that merits punching them. They're not even allowed swastikas any more.

Nazi's are evil because of what they believe, not what they do. It's the whole idea of macro-ethics. it doesn't matter what you do in your own personal life, your goodness or badness depends on what political ideas you support. It's why leftist still defend people even when they burndown people's businesses, hit people in the head with bike locks, coerce women into sex, or have decade old kickstarters go unfulfilled. As long as those people openly support the correct political positions, they aren't "bad" people.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on December 25, 2021, 06:41:59 PMI wonder if they were trying to go for something akin to how black troops were recruited during the American Civil War?

Still, boy howdy I'd hate to try and sell that plotline to ANYONE.

I have obviously not read the very large texts that all the drama is about, but - yeah, something like that seems to have been part of the considerations regarding the intended narrative. It's even somewhat justifiable from the POV that Paizo wants to keep their games marketable to highschoolers, and can't realistically go completely "Game of Thrones Season Six" on people - which seems to have been one of the more obvious models there, both for the city setting in general, as well as for the campaign.

That said, the people who okay'ed this, they need to go and meditate on a mountain for a year. Not a fan of "sensitivity editors" myself, but this is what they're hired for - and that Paizo apparently overlooked any concerns that must have been there, a freaking scandal. So much virtue-signaling, and so much shaming of perceived "thought-crime offenders", but then the powers that be apparently decide that the way to treat slavery in their realms of fantasy is a good ol' "Uncle Tom" tale.

- That's deeply unprofessional, more than it is "-ist" of anything. I wouldn't be surprised if Paizo house staff saw some bigger changes in the not-so-far future. Oversights like this, they won't get you fired. ...But they will invite "we'll take it from here, son"-conversations.

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on December 24, 2021, 07:22:54 PM
I am just glad that I bought a copy of Primeval Thule when I did.  There's slavery all over that setting.  Slavers are one of the main antagonists.

Ordered a copy of this. I'm not hep on demihumans in my sword and sorcery, but fuck it I can make adjustments.

Quote from: Thornhammer on December 27, 2021, 12:19:04 AM
Ordered a copy of this. I'm not hep on demihumans in my sword and sorcery, but fuck it I can make adjustments.

If it's any consolation for you, the Elves of Thule are a dying whacked out race of drug addicts hopelessly lost in their memories of their glorious past lives on their home world, the Dwarves are a minuscule population that lives in an isolated mountain city, and Halflings are pretty much just jungle Pygmy savages. "Demi-Human" races are not of any notably large population. The 5E version notes that just about any race from the core could come from out of the lost wild areas within the continent. I don't know what the PF version says, as I didn't bother to buy it. The Savage Worlds version makes no note of any race beyond Human, Atlantean, Elf, Dwarf or Halfling that I have found.

I asked my players to build Humans and leave the other races alone in this one. I got the inevitable request for a Demi-human character, and said fine one player character only, but all Demi humans are othered peoples and humans are automatically suspicious of them. They are pretty much on par with demons and monsters, alien creatures that are not to be trusted. So this group will have one of those addled Elves with them that they will likely either have to defend or save at one point during their adventures, and probably many times over. The player understood and took it in stride at character generation but we will see how he deals with all of that further along in game. We are using SW.

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on December 24, 2021, 07:22:54 PM
I am just glad that I bought a copy of Primeval Thule when I did.  There's slavery all over that setting.  Slavers are one of the main antagonists.

Primeval Thule isn't a Paizo product, and the company that produced it is now defunct. So in all likelihood you won't see any revisionism taking hold on the Primeval Thule front.

Quote from: Dropbear on December 27, 2021, 12:42:53 AM

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on December 24, 2021, 07:22:54 PM
I am just glad that I bought a copy of Primeval Thule when I did.  There's slavery all over that setting.  Slavers are one of the main antagonists.

Primeval Thule isn't a Paizo product, and the company that produced it is now defunct. So in all likelihood you won't see any revisionism taking hold on the Primeval Thule front.

That's never stopped the leftist activists - they've been censoring and revising practically since 5 minutes after Gutenberg's first print run..

Quote from: Dropbear on December 27, 2021, 12:38:10 AM

Quote from: Thornhammer on December 27, 2021, 12:19:04 AM
Ordered a copy of this. I'm not hep on demihumans in my sword and sorcery, but fuck it I can make adjustments.

If it's any consolation for you, the Elves of Thule are a dying whacked out race of drug addicts hopelessly lost in their memories of their glorious past lives on their home world, the Dwarves are a minuscule population that lives in an isolated mountain city, and Halflings are pretty much just jungle Pygmy savages. "Demi-Human" races are not of any notably large population. The 5E version notes that just about any race from the core could come from out of the lost wild areas within the continent. I don't know what the PF version says, as I didn't bother to buy it. The Savage Worlds version makes no note of any race beyond Human, Atlantean, Elf, Dwarf or Halfling that I have found.

I asked my players to build Humans and leave the other races alone in this one. I got the inevitable request for a Demi-human character, and said fine one player character only, but all Demi humans are othered peoples and humans are automatically suspicious of them. They are pretty much on par with demons and monsters, alien creatures that are not to be trusted. So this group will have one of those addled Elves with them that they will likely either have to defend or save at one point during their adventures, and probably many times over. The player understood and took it in stride at character generation but we will see how he deals with all of that further along in game. We are using SW.

The Elves sound like Melniboneans so that gets a pass from me. Id pick it up...but i dont play 5e

Quote from: Slambo on December 27, 2021, 10:53:18 AM

Quote from: Dropbear on December 27, 2021, 12:38:10 AM

Quote from: Thornhammer on December 27, 2021, 12:19:04 AM
Ordered a copy of this. I'm not hep on demihumans in my sword and sorcery, but fuck it I can make adjustments.

If it's any consolation for you, the Elves of Thule are a dying whacked out race of drug addicts hopelessly lost in their memories of their glorious past lives on their home world, the Dwarves are a minuscule population that lives in an isolated mountain city, and Halflings are pretty much just jungle Pygmy savages. "Demi-Human" races are not of any notably large population. The 5E version notes that just about any race from the core could come from out of the lost wild areas within the continent. I don't know what the PF version says, as I didn't bother to buy it. The Savage Worlds version makes no note of any race beyond Human, Atlantean, Elf, Dwarf or Halfling that I have found.

I asked my players to build Humans and leave the other races alone in this one. I got the inevitable request for a Demi-human character, and said fine one player character only, but all Demi humans are othered peoples and humans are automatically suspicious of them. They are pretty much on par with demons and monsters, alien creatures that are not to be trusted. So this group will have one of those addled Elves with them that they will likely either have to defend or save at one point during their adventures, and probably many times over. The player understood and took it in stride at character generation but we will see how he deals with all of that further along in game. We are using SW.

The Elves sound like Melniboneans so that gets a pass from me. Id pick it up...but i dont play 5e

Primeval Thule has Pathfinder, Savage Worlds, 4e D&D and 13th Age versions, too. These are all pretty generic + a rules appendix; I used the Pathfinder version to run Thule in Mini Six (it had some handy Hero Point rules for PF that translated directly to M6 Hero Points).

Quote from: 3catcircus on December 27, 2021, 09:44:36 AM

Quote from: Dropbear on December 27, 2021, 12:42:53 AM

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on December 24, 2021, 07:22:54 PM
I am just glad that I bought a copy of Primeval Thule when I did.  There's slavery all over that setting.  Slavers are one of the main antagonists.

Primeval Thule isn't a Paizo product, and the company that produced it is now defunct. So in all likelihood you won't see any revisionism taking hold on the Primeval Thule front.

That's never stopped the leftist activists - they've been censoring and revising practically since 5 minutes after Gutenberg's first print run..

So again, the company that wrote and produced Primeval Thule is defunct.

This means that unless some leftist activists buy the rights for Primeval Thule, and produces a whole new version, you won't be seeing any revisionist version of Primeval Thule in which slavery doesn't exist, the Great Old Ones are really just nice guys who are misunderstood, the Elves are just wistful angsty pantywaists and not hopelessly addicted to drugs and lost in the memories of their ancestral homeland, and every furry race that was ever available to play in any RPG is represented in the setting and has a place, and the Beastmen are not all brutal savages who feast upon the flesh of other sentient races.

Quote from: Slambo on December 27, 2021, 10:53:18 AM

Quote from: Dropbear on December 27, 2021, 12:38:10 AM

Quote from: Thornhammer on December 27, 2021, 12:19:04 AM
Ordered a copy of this. I'm not hep on demihumans in my sword and sorcery, but fuck it I can make adjustments.

If it's any consolation for you, the Elves of Thule are a dying whacked out race of drug addicts hopelessly lost in their memories of their glorious past lives on their home world, the Dwarves are a minuscule population that lives in an isolated mountain city, and Halflings are pretty much just jungle Pygmy savages. "Demi-Human" races are not of any notably large population. The 5E version notes that just about any race from the core could come from out of the lost wild areas within the continent. I don't know what the PF version says, as I didn't bother to buy it. The Savage Worlds version makes no note of any race beyond Human, Atlantean, Elf, Dwarf or Halfling that I have found.

I asked my players to build Humans and leave the other races alone in this one. I got the inevitable request for a Demi-human character, and said fine one player character only, but all Demi humans are othered peoples and humans are automatically suspicious of them. They are pretty much on par with demons and monsters, alien creatures that are not to be trusted. So this group will have one of those addled Elves with them that they will likely either have to defend or save at one point during their adventures, and probably many times over. The player understood and took it in stride at character generation but we will see how he deals with all of that further along in game. We are using SW.

The Elves sound like Melniboneans so that gets a pass from me. Id pick it up...but i dont play 5e

As S'Mon stated, there's a SW version. That's what I'm using.

Quote from: Wntrlnd on December 25, 2021, 07:41:07 PM
One start to think what the end-goal of the woke products will be if there are no antagonists, no monsters, no conflicts.

Are the Players adventurers whose greatest deeds will be to save kittens down from trees?

Back just before 5e started its playtest and then during it, Storygamers were complaining about how D&D was all violence and there were no rules for... talking to people... And most of them just could not wrap their heads around the concept of... you know... role playing talking to NPCs...

What the hell do they really want? They hate systems, but demand systems, but cant seem to grasp doing the thing they are advocating for?

And then yeah we have the prude patrol wanting to abolish all violence and bad-think in games because that will surely cure violence in the world. Especially when they so love to resort to threats and even violence to get their way.

Quote from: Omega on December 28, 2021, 03:49:44 AM
Back just before 5e started its playtest and then during it, Storygamers were complaining about how D&D was all violence and there were no rules for... talking to people... And most of them just could not wrap their heads around the concept of... you know... role playing talking to NPCs...

What the hell do they really want? They hate systems, but demand systems, but cant seem to grasp doing the thing they are advocating for?

Is this a genuine question? I've played and interacted with a lot of story gamers over the years - and arguably am one myself, so I can talk about what they seem to enjoy. I'm cross-over in that I'll play various games including D&D, other traditional RPGs like Call of Cthulhu, story games like Monster of the Week, as well as custom larps, murder mystery party games, and others.

Story gamers have published many systems that they enjoy, so I don't think they're all that mysterious. The two most popular strains now are FATE and Powered by the Apocalypse, which I think are reasonably representative.

Most are familiar with systemless role-played interaction, but they prefer having a system especially when there is a challenge to overcome. Overcoming a challenge by systemless talking can feel unsatisfying. It's much similar to how some D&D players complain about "mother may I" situations - where victory is purely dependent on GM judgement.

"Owning slaves or profiting from the slave trade
Reprehensible uses of mind-control magic
Villains might engage in such acts, but they won't happen "on-screen" or won't be described in detail. Many groups choose to not have villains engage in these activities at all, keeping these reprehensible acts out of mind entirely."

Somebody better never tell these frail, shirking daisies that the "A" series exists or else they'll all die of The Vapors.  Quick, get the fainting couches!

In case you're curious, in A2, there's a whole dungeon area where we meet up with Markessa, an elven magic-user who is fucked up six ways from Sunday.  She force-breeds different races together and accidentally created the Boggle from her experiments, she has labs full of surgery disasters and cast-offs, she has repeatedly (via magic) erased and rewritten the mind of a female slave who is not an elf but she has surgically altered (not Polymorph...no, she cut the woman up) to look like an elf, specifically her, to work as a body double - and she (Markessa) isn't even Drow.  She's just that fucked up.

She is a villainess and killing her should be a crowning achievement for the party, as well as liberating and healing those she's hurt.  But I guess in Paizo's universe that is nicht gerwehr and not permitted.

Anyway, pinkos, eat your own.  I'll be pointing and laughing.

Quote from: thedungeondelver on December 28, 2021, 02:49:22 PM
"Owning slaves or profiting from the slave trade
Reprehensible uses of mind-control magic
Villains might engage in such acts, but they won't happen "on-screen" or won't be described in detail. Many groups choose to not have villains engage in these activities at all, keeping these reprehensible acts out of mind entirely."

Somebody better never tell these frail, shirking daisies that the "A" series exists or else they'll all die of The Vapors.  Quick, get the fainting couches!

In case you're curious, in A2, there's a whole dungeon area where we meet up with Markessa, an elven magic-user who is fucked up six ways from Sunday.  She force-breeds different races together and accidentally created the Boggle from her experiments, she has labs full of surgery disasters and cast-offs, she has repeatedly (via magic) erased and rewritten the mind of a female slave who is not an elf but she has surgically altered (not Polymorph...no, she cut the woman up) to look like an elf, specifically her, to work as a body double - and she (Markessa) isn't even Drow.  She's just that fucked up.

She is a villainess and killing her should be a crowning achievement for the party, as well as liberating and healing those she's hurt.  But I guess in Paizo's universe that is nicht gerwehr and not permitted.

Anyway, pinkos, eat your own.  I'll be pointing and laughing.

Holy shit. I gotta find that module.

I had broadly similar rules for the pirate campaign I ran, but I think I had good reasons for doing so.

Basically, with some of my players being African-American, I didn't want the issue of slavery derailing the campaign.

I wanted PG-13 piracy on the high seas, buried treasure, some privateering, and a lost city or two. Rafael Sabatini, Robert Louis Stevenson, and if you want to throw some POTC in there, sure. A straightforward classical pirate game.

But, if slavery is there, and some of the party decided they wanted to stop it, I could see the whole thing turning into "Let's end slavery in 1690." Especially if your party are supposed to be "good pirates."  It might even be a good idea for a campaign, but it wasn't the campaign I wanted to run.

So I basically ran in an airbrushed version of the 1600s. In the real 1690s, as much as a third of the population of Port Royal were slaves, but in my game, it was just a rowdy town full of pirates, with a bunch of civilians thrown in.

Rape was similarly off-limits. Characters were expressly forbidden from going there, and for my part I as GM would not bring the subject up.

Should that be the rule across an entire game line? I don't know. While it worked for me, and I'd certainly suggest it to others as a good practice, I wouldn't go so far as to force my rules upon others.

so they want to make the games more kid friendly. I have no problem with that.

what I have a problem with is grown ass adults pretending that child-friendly stuff is what *I* am supposed to be consuming, then shitting on me for not wanting what I'm served.

This, again, is why I say - these Brands and their owners are not serving us. Do not give them your money. They *do not want it*. They do not like *US*. Take your money and give it to those that want you as a customer. Support those that want your patronage.

Quote from: Lurkndog on December 28, 2021, 04:07:01 PM
I had broadly similar rules for the pirate campaign I ran, but I think I had good reasons for doing so.

Basically, with some of my players being African-American, I didn't want the issue of slavery derailing the campaign.

I wanted PG-13 piracy on the high seas, buried treasure, some privateering, and a lost city or two. Rafael Sabatini, Robert Louis Stevenson, and if you want to throw some POTC in there, sure. A straightforward classical pirate game.

But, if slavery is there, and some of the party decided they wanted to stop it, I could see the whole thing turning into "Let's end slavery in 1690." Especially if your party are supposed to be "good pirates."  It might even be a good idea for a campaign, but it wasn't the campaign I wanted to run.

So I basically ran in an airbrushed version of the 1600s. In the real 1690s, as much as a third of the population of Port Royal were slaves, but in my game, it was just a rowdy town full of pirates, with a bunch of civilians thrown in.

Rape was similarly off-limits. Characters were expressly forbidden from going there, and for my part I as GM would not bring the subject up.

Should that be the rule across an entire game line? I don't know. While it worked for me, and I'd certainly suggest it to others as a good practice, I wouldn't go so far as to force my rules upon others.

This might be a generational thing - half of one of my LA crews were black players, and slavery was pretty common in parts of our game (Thay, Calimshan, etc.) where our campaigns were set. Not once did *any* of them ever associate slavery in the game with actual slavery in the United States history. Why do you think that is?

It's not that they weren't aware of it, they were not affected by this weird idea that slavery in a fictional setting was some kind of assumption of a real-world claim about society. Some of them bought slaves in-game, and treated them very well, and eventually freed them.

Again, this sensitivity is a White Liberal issue that has infected everyone else. Slavery is *is happening* right now - all those Apple products and Nike shoes didn't build themselves. This is why I find this whole fascination with "slavery" as some kind of taboo in gaming laughable to the highest degree.

But you know, I'd love for someone to cite me how Slavery in RPG's has a real world affect that actually matters where slavery is being practiced. Somehow... I suspect those places 1) do not give a fuck 2) have no fucking idea what an RPG probably is and if they did  GOTO #1.

Quote from: tenbones on December 28, 2021, 04:48:19 PM
so they want to make the games more kid friendly. I have no problem with that.

Piazzo really should have done Pathfinder 2.0 as a kids RPG. It is a market that is under-served and they could remove all objectionable content without raising a fuss about it because nobody would expect adult themes in a kids RPG. They could pull out of direct competition with WotC, act as an on-ramp to RPG in general, while republishing rated-G version of everything for the new market.

Unfortunately they've already taken the SJW exit and anything they do now would be seen as brainwashing the kids so its most likely too late.

Quote from: tenbones on December 28, 2021, 04:56:00 PMAgain, this sensitivity is a White Liberal issue that has infected everyone else.

There are plenty of black grifters that take advantage of this. To say this is only a 'Whack White people problem' dismisses all the black people without dignity that happily treat themselves as victims for more cash or attention.

Quote from: tenbones on December 28, 2021, 04:56:00 PM

Quote from: Lurkndog on December 28, 2021, 04:07:01 PM
So I basically ran in an airbrushed version of the 1600s. In the real 1690s, as much as a third of the population of Port Royal were slaves, but in my game, it was just a rowdy town full of pirates, with a bunch of civilians thrown in.

Rape was similarly off-limits. Characters were expressly forbidden from going there, and for my part I as GM would not bring the subject up.

Should that be the rule across an entire game line? I don't know. While it worked for me, and I'd certainly suggest it to others as a good practice, I wouldn't go so far as to force my rules upon others.

This might be a generational thing - half of one of my LA crews were black players, and slavery was pretty common in parts of our game (Thay, Calimshan, etc.) where our campaigns were set. Not once did *any* of them ever associate slavery in the game with actual slavery in the United States history. Why do you think that is?

It's not that they weren't aware of it, they were not affected by this weird idea that slavery in a fictional setting was some kind of assumption of a real-world claim about society. Some of them bought slaves in-game, and treated them very well, and eventually freed them.

I don't speak for Lurkndog, but I have had a similar approach in most of my games. I don't assume that fictional slavery, torture, or rape is a real-world claim about society. But I don't necessarily want that content in the games that I play for fun. I've played in games with plenty of grimdark content - but it's not something I want all the time.

In general, I find that even though I am an adult -- stuff labelled as "adult entertainment" isn't my go-to for entertainment.

To Lurkndog's question:

Quote from: Lurkndog on December 28, 2021, 04:07:01 PM
Should that be the rule across an entire game line? I don't know. While it worked for me, and I'd certainly suggest it to others as a good practice, I wouldn't go so far as to force my rules upon others.

Nothing is being forced on anyone either way. The question is just what the default should be for the line. Individual games can go whatever direction they like.

There are game lines that have dark content built-in, like Call of Cthulhu, Bluebeard's Bride, and plenty of others. There are other games that default to lighter content, though, like Star Wars and others.

Quote from: jhkim on December 28, 2021, 05:25:48 PMNothing is being forced on anyone either way.

A company feeling pressured to sanatize content is the issue. Framing it any other way is disengenous.

Going a 'Not every company has been put to heel yet' is such a meely wishy washy defense.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on December 28, 2021, 05:28:18 PM

Quote from: jhkim on December 28, 2021, 05:25:48 PMNothing is being forced on anyone either way.

A company feeling pressured to sanatize content is the issue. Framing it any other way is disengenous.

Going a 'Not every company has been put to heel yet' is such a meely wishy washy defense.

But is that an accurate complaint against WOTC? At this point, I think WOTC as a company is pretty much woke, and they want to do this. And more power to them. Every follower of a dysfunctional, destructive -ism should have the freedom to toss their livelyhood down the toilet in the pursuit of their ideology.

My big complaint is that they own the rights to product created before the wokening, and can curate that content as they see fit. Which would be a damn shame if such content got memory holed or irreversably changed to conform to their current agenda.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on December 28, 2021, 05:41:59 PMBut is that an accurate complaint against WOTC?

Its Paizo doing this. And I suppose they want to do this because they think its right just like a cultist might feel right no longer taking the calls of their family and friends. Its true enough that I guess in that sense there isn't any pressure. But that still feels warped and twisted.
Saying 'Well not everybody has joined Scientology' as a rebuttal for criticisms of what has happened since they joined I just feel is made in bad faith.

Much truth spoken.  It's a shame, though.  I guess we are just a bunch of bitter clingers?

[/quote]But is that an accurate complaint against WOTC? At this point, I think WOTC as a company is pretty much woke, and they want to do this. And more power to them. Every follower of a dysfunctional, destructive -ism should have the freedom to toss their livelyhood down the toilet in the pursuit of their ideology.

My big complaint is that they own the rights to product created before the wokening, and can curate that content as they see fit. Which would be a damn shame if such content got memory holed or irreversably changed to conform to their current agenda.
[/quote]

Quote from: Ratman_tf on December 28, 2021, 05:41:59 PM

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on December 28, 2021, 05:28:18 PM

Quote from: jhkim on December 28, 2021, 05:25:48 PMNothing is being forced on anyone either way.

A company feeling pressured to sanatize content is the issue. Framing it any other way is disengenous.

Going a 'Not every company has been put to heel yet' is such a meely wishy washy defense.

But is that an accurate complaint against WOTC? At this point, I think WOTC as a company is pretty much woke, and they want to do this. And more power to them. Every follower of a dysfunctional, destructive -ism should have the freedom to toss their livelyhood down the toilet in the pursuit of their ideology.

Agreed - though I thought we were talking about Paizo here, not WotC? But the same is true for Paizo. As far as I can tell, Paizo isn't being blackmailed into choices they are opposed to. They've been on the progressive bandwagon from early on, like having a black woman as their iconic paladin on the cover.

Players can and should pressure companies by saying "I don't like this". That's just normal market pressure. I'm fine with Ocule's green/yellow/red list of companies for people who feel similarly, and the equivalent for left-leaning gamers. There should be different games for different tastes and different times, and gamers vote with their feet and dollars. At least currently, there's plentiful OSR content, plus easy access to older D&D material, in addition to newer material from Paizo and WotC.

EDITED TO ADD: Cross-posted with Shrieking Banshee.

Quote from: jhkim on December 28, 2021, 05:25:48 PM
Nothing is being forced on anyone either way.

How exactly do you suppose a game publisher would "force" anything on anyone? Perhaps they might listen to recordings of online games and cancel your subscription if you step out of line. Maybe they'd wire your dick to a machine and read passages of lore to decide what's too arousing and must be removed when the machine beeps?

Ridiculous, of course. Just like the idea that nobody is being forced to do anything is a ridiculous way of excusing the sanitizing and disclaiming that's going on. The removal of lore won't affect *my* game, so who cares, right?

This is not about any particular lore or particular game or some personal preference at the table; it's about the principle of letting a creative work stand on its own merit and not preemptively admonishing your customers if you think they might interpret the work in a slightly ungood way.

Perhaps we should extend this sniveling lack of principles to other areas? Maybe we should have museum visitors sign an affirmation that they are anti-slavery before allowing them into an exhibit about the slave trade. Maybe we should demand that novels and films about difficult subjects include prefaces that lecture us on the correct opinions about these subjects. Heck, maybe we should demand that works be continually updated to reflect modern sensitivities. There are mountains of works that contain "problematic" words and ideas.

Quote from: jhkim on December 28, 2021, 05:25:48 PM

Quote from: tenbones on December 28, 2021, 04:56:00 PM

Quote from: Lurkndog on December 28, 2021, 04:07:01 PM
So I basically ran in an airbrushed version of the 1600s. In the real 1690s, as much as a third of the population of Port Royal were slaves, but in my game, it was just a rowdy town full of pirates, with a bunch of civilians thrown in.

Rape was similarly off-limits. Characters were expressly forbidden from going there, and for my part I as GM would not bring the subject up.

Should that be the rule across an entire game line? I don't know. While it worked for me, and I'd certainly suggest it to others as a good practice, I wouldn't go so far as to force my rules upon others.

This might be a generational thing - half of one of my LA crews were black players, and slavery was pretty common in parts of our game (Thay, Calimshan, etc.) where our campaigns were set. Not once did *any* of them ever associate slavery in the game with actual slavery in the United States history. Why do you think that is?

It's not that they weren't aware of it, they were not affected by this weird idea that slavery in a fictional setting was some kind of assumption of a real-world claim about society. Some of them bought slaves in-game, and treated them very well, and eventually freed them.

I don't speak for Lurkndog, but I have had a similar approach in most of my games. I don't assume that fictional slavery, torture, or rape is a real-world claim about society. But I don't necessarily want that content in the games that I play for fun. I've played in games with plenty of grimdark content - but it's not something I want all the time.

In general, I find that even though I am an adult -- stuff labelled as "adult entertainment" isn't my go-to for entertainment.

To Lurkndog's question:

Quote from: Lurkndog on December 28, 2021, 04:07:01 PM
Should that be the rule across an entire game line? I don't know. While it worked for me, and I'd certainly suggest it to others as a good practice, I wouldn't go so far as to force my rules upon others.

Nothing is being forced on anyone either way. The question is just what the default should be for the line. Individual games can go whatever direction they like.

There are game lines that have dark content built-in, like Call of Cthulhu, Bluebeard's Bride, and plenty of others. There are other games that default to lighter content, though, like Star Wars and others.

Despite defaulting to lighter content, there's slavery in Star Wars.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on December 28, 2021, 03:29:26 PM
Holy shit. I gotta find that module.

A2 Secret of the Slavers Stockade.

It's not the first module I ever owned, but it's the first one I read, and a big big part of why I love AD&D so. 

But, dig this: Markessa is so bad that if the party meets a fellow "sent by the downtown office", who happens to be an Ogre Mage, he'll ask them to kill Markessa because her shenanigans are interfering with the bottom line for the Slave Lords.

That's how bad she is.

Quote from: thedungeondelver on December 29, 2021, 01:13:36 AM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on December 28, 2021, 03:29:26 PM
Holy shit. I gotta find that module.

A2 Secret of the Slavers Stockade.

It's not the first module I ever owned, but it's the first one I read, and a big big part of why I love AD&D so.

I don't think I ever played A2, but I fondly remember the tournament module A4 "In The Dungeons of the Slave Lords" -- where the characters are naked through the whole adventure. (They are technically given loincloths, but their only weapons are using the loincloths as slings.) Playing through the challenges was hilarious as we described them going through the fights with all their parts hanging out.

Nothing wrong with all-naked adventures and other material. But not every game line has to include everything. I'm pretty sure A4 would have been changed to add some clothes if it were part of BECMI or in the 2E era, for example.

Quote from: jhkim on December 28, 2021, 05:58:57 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on December 28, 2021, 05:41:59 PM

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on December 28, 2021, 05:28:18 PM

Quote from: jhkim on December 28, 2021, 05:25:48 PMNothing is being forced on anyone either way.

A company feeling pressured to sanatize content is the issue. Framing it any other way is disengenous.

Going a 'Not every company has been put to heel yet' is such a meely wishy washy defense.

But is that an accurate complaint against WOTC? At this point, I think WOTC as a company is pretty much woke, and they want to do this. And more power to them. Every follower of a dysfunctional, destructive -ism should have the freedom to toss their livelyhood down the toilet in the pursuit of their ideology.

Agreed - though I thought we were talking about Paizo here, not WotC? But the same is true for Paizo. As far as I can tell, Paizo isn't being blackmailed into choices they are opposed to. They've been on the progressive bandwagon from early on, like having a black woman as their iconic paladin on the cover.

Players can and should pressure companies by saying "I don't like this". That's just normal market pressure. I'm fine with Ocule's green/yellow/red list of companies for people who feel similarly, and the equivalent for left-leaning gamers. There should be different games for different tastes and different times, and gamers vote with their feet and dollars. At least currently, there's plentiful OSR content, plus easy access to older D&D material, in addition to newer material from Paizo and WotC.

EDITED TO ADD: Cross-posted with Shrieking Banshee.

I bolded that one line of text. What is wrong with a black woman as a paladin?

Why do you care about the official cannon policy on slavery or anything else. You can run your own games with as mature and complex situations as you want.

Run the game you want and don't worry about what WoTC or Paiso does.

Quote from: fixable on December 29, 2021, 04:25:58 AM
What is wrong with a black woman as a paladin?

Could be worse, could be Fat Valeros.

Quote from: jhkim on December 28, 2021, 05:58:57 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on December 28, 2021, 05:41:59 PM

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on December 28, 2021, 05:28:18 PM

Quote from: jhkim on December 28, 2021, 05:25:48 PMNothing is being forced on anyone either way.

A company feeling pressured to sanatize content is the issue. Framing it any other way is disengenous.

Going a 'Not every company has been put to heel yet' is such a meely wishy washy defense.

But is that an accurate complaint against WOTC? At this point, I think WOTC as a company is pretty much woke, and they want to do this. And more power to them. Every follower of a dysfunctional, destructive -ism should have the freedom to toss their livelyhood down the toilet in the pursuit of their ideology.

Agreed - though I thought we were talking about Paizo here, not WotC? But the same is true for Paizo. As far as I can tell, Paizo isn't being blackmailed into choices they are opposed to. They've been on the progressive bandwagon from early on, like having a black woman as their iconic paladin on the cover.

Players can and should pressure companies by saying "I don't like this". That's just normal market pressure. I'm fine with Ocule's green/yellow/red list of companies for people who feel similarly, and the equivalent for left-leaning gamers. There should be different games for different tastes and different times, and gamers vote with their feet and dollars. At least currently, there's plentiful OSR content, plus easy access to older D&D material, in addition to newer material from Paizo and WotC.

EDITED TO ADD: Cross-posted with Shrieking Banshee.

Yep,bolded. RPG publishers are listening to the needs of players. Maybe you call it woke because it doesn't directly benefit you. But for people who are into RPG gaming who come from different experiences than you it means much more. You just look at one side... just at what appeals to you. Then you criticize a game company for appealing to people not like you.

So what do you want?

RPG games should only ever appeal to your own personal tastes or the tastes that YOU personally deem appropriate?

Quote from: Shasarak on December 29, 2021, 04:28:42 AM

Quote from: fixable on December 29, 2021, 04:25:58 AM
What is wrong with a black woman as a paladin?

Could be worse, could be Fat Valeros.

Ok lol.
But seriously, is this a forum about RPG discussion? Or is this a forum about right wing fascist racist ideologies? I mean this thread pretends to bring discussion but it seems a dissenting opinion is not tolerated here.

But I'm challenging your statement. Its ok that you decline that challenge. But it will be duly noted.. lol.

Quote from: fixable on December 29, 2021, 04:42:02 AM

Quote from: Shasarak on December 29, 2021, 04:28:42 AM

Quote from: fixable on December 29, 2021, 04:25:58 AM
What is wrong with a black woman as a paladin?

Could be worse, could be Fat Valeros.

Ok lol.
But seriously, is this a forum about RPG discussion? Or is this a forum about right wing fascist racist ideologies? I mean this thread pretends to bring discussion but it seems a dissenting opinion is not tolerated here. That's fine. Well not really, I'm going to continue to voice my opinion here whether you like it or not (or ban me) lol.

But I'm challenging your statement. Its ok that you decline that challenge. But it will be duly noted.. lol.

You challenge my statement?

You champion fat white Valeros over a strong black woman?

I am shocked but not that shocked.

Quote from: fixable on December 29, 2021, 04:42:02 AM

Quote from: Shasarak on December 29, 2021, 04:28:42 AM

Quote from: fixable on December 29, 2021, 04:25:58 AM
What is wrong with a black woman as a paladin?

Could be worse, could be Fat Valeros.

Ok lol.
But seriously, is this a forum about RPG discussion? Or is this a forum about right wing fascist racist ideologies? I mean this thread pretends to bring discussion but it seems a dissenting opinion is not tolerated here.

But I'm challenging your statement. Its ok that you decline that challenge. But it will be duly noted.. lol.

Oh, another disingenuous gas lighting dumb ass who wants to play the victim I can ignore. LOL.

Quote from: palaeomerus on December 29, 2021, 05:27:25 AM

Quote from: fixable on December 29, 2021, 04:42:02 AM

Quote from: Shasarak on December 29, 2021, 04:28:42 AM

Quote from: fixable on December 29, 2021, 04:25:58 AM
What is wrong with a black woman as a paladin?

Could be worse, could be Fat Valeros.

Ok lol.
But seriously, is this a forum about RPG discussion? Or is this a forum about right wing fascist racist ideologies? I mean this thread pretends to bring discussion but it seems a dissenting opinion is not tolerated here.

But I'm challenging your statement. Its ok that you decline that challenge. But it will be duly noted.. lol.

Oh, another disingenuous gas lighting dumb ass who wants to play the victim I can ignore. LOL.

Agreed and seconded and seems to forget this is not the rpg.net or Paizo forums where the mods come crawling on their bellies whenever someone plays the victim or tries to use their sexual orientation as an excuse to behave badly.

So their attempt at concern trolling is noted and summarily ignored.

Quote from: fixable on December 29, 2021, 04:33:36 AM
Yep,bolded. RPG publishers are listening to the needs of players.

Which needs and which players?

I think the major difference in viewpoints here comes from opinions on (1) if the decision came to satisfy unrepresented black players, (2) to satisfy white players, and Piazo employees, concerned over appearing racist because of the lack of black representation, (3) or because management believed everyone outside of Seattle is racist and they hoped ride the wave of indignation to make themselves feel superior.

I think most of the folks on the board would accept (1) as valid but don't believe for a minute that was the real reason for the choice.

Quote from: fixable on December 29, 2021, 04:42:02 AM
I mean this thread pretends to bring discussion but it seems a dissenting opinion is not tolerated here.

In what way is your opinion "not tolerated" here? Or did you mean that someone disagreed with you?

Quote from: Ruprecht on December 29, 2021, 08:57:00 AM

Quote from: fixable on December 29, 2021, 04:33:36 AM
Yep,bolded. RPG publishers are listening to the needs of players.

Which needs and which players?

I think the major difference in viewpoints here comes from opinions on (1) if the decision came to satisfy unrepresented black players, (2) to satisfy white players, and Piazo employees, concerned over appearing racist because of the lack of black representation, (3) or because management believed everyone outside of Seattle is racist and they hoped ride the wave of indignation to make themselves feel superior.

I think most of the folks on the board would accept (1) as valid but don't believe for a minute that was the real reason for the choice.

Indeed, it's tough to swallow when never hearing a single complaint or comment from any of the black people, Mexican people, Asian people, Pacific Islanders, or numerous women I've played with since the 70's, who apparently all felt welcome and eager to play.

(Ew, I had to think like a racist to even compile that list, it never occurred to me at the time that anyone was other than a "player".)

Quote from: fixable on December 29, 2021, 04:42:02 AM
I mean this thread pretends to bring discussion but it seems a dissenting opinion is not tolerated here.

Uhm, nobody has warned you or banned you for expressing your opinion. You are being 'tolerated' just fine- just not agreed with. There's a difference there that most woke folks have an issue digesting, and here you don't have a bunch of woke mods coming out of the woodwork to wipe away your tears and slam the mean non-woke posters who disagree.

What you are experiencing here is actual tolerance, not the pretend woke kind.

Quote from: Ruprecht on December 29, 2021, 08:57:00 AM

Quote from: fixable on December 29, 2021, 04:33:36 AM
Yep,bolded. RPG publishers are listening to the needs of players.

Which needs and which players?

I think the major difference in viewpoints here comes from opinions on (1) if the decision came to satisfy unrepresented black players, (2) to satisfy white players, and Piazo employees, concerned over appearing racist because of the lack of black representation, (3) or because management believed everyone outside of Seattle is racist and they hoped ride the wave of indignation to make themselves feel superior.

I think most of the folks on the board would accept (1) as valid but don't believe for a minute that was the real reason for the choice.

Ooo me! Ooo me!

Since for the vast majority of D&D's history the cultures (note: cultures not necessarily nationalities which is distinct from ethnicities) are real-world analogues that for obvious reasons mostly European.

The issue is the assumptions of writers trying to shoe-horn real world ethnicities (note: Ethnicities) into cultures (note: cultures) free of ANY context for the purposes of virtue signaling.

Now as an Asian guy, I ****DEARLY**** love Oriental Adventures when it dropped. Was it because representation? HELL NO. Though the fact the boxset did a fabulous job giving content to other Asian cultures other than the Fancy Asians (Chinese, Japanese, Koreans) - thanks Mike Pondsmith, the fact was it was simply cool to have a setting that wasn't the standard D&D European fare.

But here's the thing... if I'm looking for representation, *I* don't want to see a person of a different ethnicity repping a culture they're not supposed to be from as "ICONIC". I'm not saying there can't be Mexican Samurai, or Black Samurai, or whatever but there should be some serious context to that outlier.

I assume this is true for people that are of European descent too. The "problem" is that Paizo and WotC and the rest of the woke crowd want to pretend that cultures and ethnic groups all mingle in some post-modern bullshit reality which reeks of shit they would call "whitewashing" if done in reverse.

This always goes back to my claim: the dirty secret is Kara-Tur, Nyambe, Maztica, Al-Qadim didn't sell. Now we can argue about the qualitative differences between those settings, Maztica is a horrible representation of Mesoamerican fantasy which is a real shame. But Al-Qadim is ***fantastically*** good. But not enough people came out to support it.

The unshocking reality is that /gasp people like playing with what they know. Freaky old-school GM's like me will happily run a Marco Polo-esque campaign that takes everyone from Fantasy Ireland to Saudi-Arabia, to Imperial China and Japan, then landing on the Sacred Isles of the Elves and Jungle Dwarven Kingdoms without missing beat. Most GM's don't want to do that.

And these knuckleheads in Paizo and WotC want to pretend that their newfound religions explains this: people are racist.

No they're not. They're just playing a game and want to have fun. They maybe not be as ambitious, the writing of the non-European content may not be enticing enough, but rather than make a modern attempt - they insert these cardboard cutout ethnic people into their European settings and don't even bother supporting their own ethnic cultures in their own worlds.

And who is gonna argue? They keep churning out the same old vanilla-flavored shit and people keep buying.

It's easier to make a Black Female Paladin in the European mold than to make a cool Black Female Fantasy Masai-Warrior that has their own cool schtick, or might be a Paladin analog culturally, call everyone Racist that disagrees even by implication. Let's make Hovito Knights in full plate with lances etc to rep South American's, instead of fantasy Feathered Serpent Warriors with obsidian blades as hard as steel, and their own cool "thing".

Yeah "representation" my ass.

Edit: LET me be more clear. The reason they don't do these things is because THEY look down on other cultures as "sub-standard" instead of elevating them to something cool and useful. It's their own inherent bigotry that we poor people of color *need* representation rather than give everyone a good taste of something different that might analogous to non-European cultures.

I had thought while I was making my coffee...

This is really a White Liberal problem. The only "POC's" that usually agree with these bullshit concepts of "representation" are those that have been gaslit into believing White Liberal redefinitions of these terms. They've accepted it. Otherwise you're branded as "Not real <ethnicity in quesiton>". Biden said this. You have to accept their terminology or be invalidated (You can't be Latino/Latina anymore you have to be Latinx)

So in some ways Paizo and WotC have painted themselves into a corner on this issue of representation. They've trained their followers so that any real attempt at portraying a Fantasy non-European real-world analog culture will likely get attacked before long.

This is why it's much easier to just insert rando ethnic person into a fantasy setting free of context, and the proliferation of the freakshow races persists. It's easier to dodge around the issue. Of course there is going to be a lot of bowing, kneeling for the mistakes of the past and lots of memory holing to shore up their Holy Books with the current dogmas.

QuoteThis is really a White Liberal problem

DINGDINGDINGDING WE HAVE A WINNAH

I mean there are some grifters out there who push it, too.  The guy who caused the cascade of "content warnings" to be plastered on old materials sold in the D&D Classics section of DTRPG was an Asian dude.

But generally speaking, yeah, it's white liberals.

Quote from: jhkim on December 29, 2021, 01:37:37 AM
I don't think I ever played A2, but I fondly remember the tournament module A4 "In The Dungeons of the Slave Lords" -- where the characters are naked through the whole adventure. (They are technically given loincloths, but their only weapons are using the loincloths as slings.) Playing through the challenges was hilarious as we described them going through the fights with all their parts hanging out.

Nothing wrong with all-naked adventures and other material. But not every game line has to include everything. I'm pretty sure A4 would have been changed to add some clothes if it were part of BECMI or in the 2E era, for example.

Sure, I don't think everyone would argue that, for example, every comic book should include the same story elements and art styles of Heavy Metal magazine (nudity, graphic sex).  Archie can be Archie without Axa waltzing in to Riverdale and having a foursome with some characters; but leave the reading options available, says I.

Oh, I just thought of another one that would put Paizo in a tizzy: in G2 Glacial Rift of the Frost Giant Jarl, there's a storm giantess being held prisoner.  Gary mentions that the Jarl "desires her to be his leman" (the Jarl also has a wife), and is keeping her locked up denying her food and drink until she submits.  Again, another great rescue situation (although I debate the ease with which a mere Frost Giant could subdue a storm giantess in her wrath).

Another one Paizo would forbid you running.

Quote from: fixable on December 29, 2021, 04:33:36 AM
Yep,bolded. RPG publishers are listening to the needs of players. Maybe you call it woke because it doesn't directly benefit you. But for people who are into RPG gaming who come from different experiences than you it means much more. You just look at one side... just at what appeals to you. Then you criticize a game company for appealing to people not like you.

So what do you want?

RPG games should only ever appeal to your own personal tastes or the tastes that YOU personally deem appropriate?

Baizuo is re-writing their entire game world based on one anonymous letter.  Who even knows if the person who wrote the letter is a actually a player, or even if they are offended. 

It's not that the removal of slavery offends us.  It is one of the best evils to fight against.  It's right up there with human sacrifice, and cannibalism.  But the method that Baizuo uses to remove the slavery from their campaign setting is utterly laughable.  We aren't outraged at Baizuo.  We are eating popcorn and watching them self destruct...

...over one anonymous letter

Quote from: tenbones on December 29, 2021, 10:46:27 AMThe only "POC's" that usually agree with these bullshit concepts of "representation" are those that have been gaslit into believing White Liberal redefinitions of these terms.

The grifters are much older then modern white liberals. Id say the Majority is white guilters, but there is a substantial group of POCs that happily will take a check.

Quote from: tenbones on December 29, 2021, 10:19:43 AM

Quote from: Ruprecht on December 29, 2021, 08:57:00 AM

Quote from: fixable on December 29, 2021, 04:33:36 AM
Yep,bolded. RPG publishers are listening to the needs of players.

Which needs and which players?

I think the major difference in viewpoints here comes from opinions on (1) if the decision came to satisfy unrepresented black players, (2) to satisfy white players, and Piazo employees, concerned over appearing racist because of the lack of black representation, (3) or because management believed everyone outside of Seattle is racist and they hoped ride the wave of indignation to make themselves feel superior.

I think most of the folks on the board would accept (1) as valid but don't believe for a minute that was the real reason for the choice.

Ooo me! Ooo me!

Since for the vast majority of D&D's history the cultures (note: cultures not necessarily nationalities which is distinct from ethnicities) are real-world analogues that for obvious reasons mostly European.

The issue is the assumptions of writers trying to shoe-horn real world ethnicities (note: Ethnicities) into cultures (note: cultures) free of ANY context for the purposes of virtue signaling.

Now as an Asian guy, I ****DEARLY**** love Oriental Adventures when it dropped. Was it because representation? HELL NO. Though the fact the boxset did a fabulous job giving content to other Asian cultures other than the Fancy Asians (Chinese, Japanese, Koreans) - thanks Mike Pondsmith, the fact was it was simply cool to have a setting that wasn't the standard D&D European fare.

But here's the thing... if I'm looking for representation, *I* don't want to see a person of a different ethnicity repping a culture they're not supposed to be from as "ICONIC". I'm not saying there can't be Mexican Samurai, or Black Samurai, or whatever but there should be some serious context to that outlier.

I assume this is true for people that are of European descent too. The "problem" is that Paizo and WotC and the rest of the woke crowd want to pretend that cultures and ethnic groups all mingle in some post-modern bullshit reality which reeks of shit they would call "whitewashing" if done in reverse.

This always goes back to my claim: the dirty secret is Kara-Tur, Nyambe, Maztica, Al-Qadim didn't sell. Now we can argue about the qualitative differences between those settings, Maztica is a horrible representation of Mesoamerican fantasy which is a real shame. But Al-Qadim is ***fantastically*** good. But not enough people came out to support it.

The unshocking reality is that /gasp people like playing with what they know. Freaky old-school GM's like me will happily run a Marco Polo-esque campaign that takes everyone from Fantasy Ireland to Saudi-Arabia, to Imperial China and Japan, then landing on the Sacred Isles of the Elves and Jungle Dwarven Kingdoms without missing beat. Most GM's don't want to do that.

And these knuckleheads in Paizo and WotC want to pretend that their newfound religions explains this: people are racist.

No they're not. They're just playing a game and want to have fun. They maybe not be as ambitious, the writing of the non-European content may not be enticing enough, but rather than make a modern attempt - they insert these cardboard cutout ethnic people into their European settings and don't even bother supporting their own ethnic cultures in their own worlds.

And who is gonna argue? They keep churning out the same old vanilla-flavored shit and people keep buying.

It's easier to make a Black Female Paladin in the European mold than to make a cool Black Female Fantasy Masai-Warrior that has their own cool schtick, or might be a Paladin analog culturally, call everyone Racist that disagrees even by implication. Let's make Hovito Knights in full plate with lances etc to rep South American's, instead of fantasy Feathered Serpent Warriors with obsidian blades as hard as steel, and their own cool "thing".

Yeah "representation" my ass.

Edit: LET me be more clear. The reason they don't do these things is because THEY look down on other cultures as "sub-standard" instead of elevating them to something cool and useful. It's their own inherent bigotry that we poor people of color *need* representation rather than give everyone a good taste of something different that might analogous to non-European cultures.

I am deeply frustrated that these people claiming to be liberal are so racist that they don't actually give a crap about settings outside of the weird pseudo-Europe they're obsessed with. There are many thousands of unique cultures across world history that could drive whole fantasy series individually. Instead we keep getting lazy rehashes of surface-level Tolkien readings with wokeness shoehorned in.

Quote from: thedungeondelver on December 29, 2021, 11:19:27 AM

Quote from: jhkim on December 29, 2021, 01:37:37 AM
I don't think I ever played A2, but I fondly remember the tournament module A4 "In The Dungeons of the Slave Lords" -- where the characters are naked through the whole adventure. (They are technically given loincloths, but their only weapons are using the loincloths as slings.) Playing through the challenges was hilarious as we described them going through the fights with all their parts hanging out.

Nothing wrong with all-naked adventures and other material. But not every game line has to include everything. I'm pretty sure A4 would have been changed to add some clothes if it were part of BECMI or in the 2E era, for example.

Sure, I don't think everyone would argue that, for example, every comic book should include the same story elements and art styles of Heavy Metal magazine (nudity, graphic sex).  Archie can be Archie without Axa waltzing in to Riverdale and having a foursome with some characters; but leave the reading options available, says I.

Oh, I just thought of another one that would put Paizo in a tizzy: in G2 Glacial Rift of the Frost Giant Jarl, there's a storm giantess being held prisoner.  Gary mentions that the Jarl "desires her to be his leman" (the Jarl also has a wife), and is keeping her locked up denying her food and drink until she submits.  Again, another great rescue situation (although I debate the ease with which a mere Frost Giant could subdue a storm giantess in her wrath).

Another one Paizo would forbid you running.

"Taming of the Shrew", indeed!

Quote from: fixable on December 29, 2021, 04:42:02 AM
Ok lol.
But seriously, is this a forum about RPG discussion? Or is this a forum about right wing fascist racist ideologies? I mean this thread pretends to bring discussion but it seems a dissenting opinion is not tolerated here.

But I'm challenging your statement. Its ok that you decline that challenge. But it will be duly noted.. lol.

What a strange thing to say. What is your definition of tolerance?

Quote from: thedungeondelver on December 29, 2021, 11:19:27 AM

Quote from: jhkim on December 29, 2021, 01:37:37 AM
I don't think I ever played A2, but I fondly remember the tournament module A4 "In The Dungeons of the Slave Lords" -- where the characters are naked through the whole adventure. (They are technically given loincloths, but their only weapons are using the loincloths as slings.) Playing through the challenges was hilarious as we described them going through the fights with all their parts hanging out.

Nothing wrong with all-naked adventures and other material. But not every game line has to include everything. I'm pretty sure A4 would have been changed to add some clothes if it were part of BECMI or in the 2E era, for example.

Sure, I don't think everyone would argue that, for example, every comic book should include the same story elements and art styles of Heavy Metal magazine (nudity, graphic sex).  Archie can be Archie without Axa waltzing in to Riverdale and having a foursome with some characters; but leave the reading options available, says I.

Oh, I just thought of another one that would put Paizo in a tizzy: in G2 Glacial Rift of the Frost Giant Jarl, there's a storm giantess being held prisoner.  Gary mentions that the Jarl "desires her to be his leman" (the Jarl also has a wife), and is keeping her locked up denying her food and drink until she submits.  Again, another great rescue situation (although I debate the ease with which a mere Frost Giant could subdue a storm giantess in her wrath).

Another one Paizo would forbid you running.

Agreed, but sexualized violence is also a line where TSR would forbid you from running it, too. The original run of Module B3 "Palace of the Silver Princess" was recalled and copies destroyed because it had an illustrated scene of a woman tied up and threatened by a crowd of men - which turns out to be an illusion cast by a monster to draw the characters in to intervene. In the revised version, that encounter was cut along with a few other points.

Self-censorship has always been standard for mainstream game lines. If I want more edgy content than the default for a given game line, I can put it in for my own game - or just choose another game to play. B3 was more heavily self-censored since it was for the Basic Set, which was more family-friendly than AD&D. But there were still lines that AD&D wouldn't cross either.

The most edgy sexualized violence I've had in RPGs has been in Bluebeard's Bride (https://magpiegames.com/pages/bluebeards-bride) -- which is an explicitly feminist horror game.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 29, 2021, 12:49:35 PM
There are many thousands of unique cultures across world history that could drive whole fantasy series individually. Instead we keep getting lazy rehashes of surface-level Tolkien readings with wokeness shoehorned in.

Yes.

Conan went to the Black Kingdoms, Vendaya and Khitai, in the non-Howard books he made it to the new world he didn't just sit around the Hyborian Kingdoms all day.

Quote from: rytrasmi on December 29, 2021, 01:28:23 PM

Quote from: fixable on December 29, 2021, 04:42:02 AM
Ok lol.
But seriously, is this a forum about RPG discussion? Or is this a forum about right wing fascist racist ideologies? I mean this thread pretends to bring discussion but it seems a dissenting opinion is not tolerated here.

But I'm challenging your statement. Its ok that you decline that challenge. But it will be duly noted.. lol.

What a strange thing to say. What is your definition of tolerance?

Anything that echoes only his carefully constructed personal narrative in the subject.

It's funny because outside of Woke forums whenever they don't get their way and the Mods refuse to bend the knee then anyone and everyone who disagrees with them is either right wing. Or worse ( insert word ) ist or phobic. Of course anyone and everyone who disagrees is in the wrong.

I am in contact with a poster Paizo recently banned for wrongthink and he had to give away his collection of pocket editions for 2E. He was selling them at 5-10$ Below Amazon price and beyond one buyer interested in one book no one could be bothered.

Anecdotal yes but I would not be surprised if their Woke decisions kill off 2E Pathfinder. They can't stop selling 1E as they gave their word as long as they are profitable the core books filled with nasty slavery and genocide would be kept in print.

Quote from: Abraxus on December 29, 2021, 01:43:33 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on December 29, 2021, 01:28:23 PM

Quote from: fixable on December 29, 2021, 04:42:02 AM
Ok lol.
But seriously, is this a forum about RPG discussion? Or is this a forum about right wing fascist racist ideologies? I mean this thread pretends to bring discussion but it seems a dissenting opinion is not tolerated here.

But I'm challenging your statement. Its ok that you decline that challenge. But it will be duly noted.. lol.

What a strange thing to say. What is your definition of tolerance?

Anything that echoes only his carefully constructed personal narrative in the subject.

It's funny because outside of Woke forums whenever they don't get their way and the Mods refuse to bend the knee then anyone and everyone who disagrees with them is either right wing. Or worse ( insert word ) ist or phobic. Of course anyone and everyone who disagrees is in the wrong.

I see. Maybe he means "tolerance" is an end in itself (agreement), as opposed to a means (for having a discussion).

Quote from: tenbones on December 29, 2021, 10:19:43 AM
Since for the vast majority of D&D's history the cultures (note: cultures not necessarily nationalities which is distinct from ethnicities) are real-world analogues that for obvious reasons mostly European.

The issue is the assumptions of writers trying to shoe-horn real world ethnicities (note: Ethnicities) into cultures (note: cultures) free of ANY context for the purposes of virtue signaling.

While the original D&D was more narrowly Tolkienesque European -- AD&D had a lot of cultural mix from the start. The AD&D core books shoe-horned in a lot of non-European material, from Chinese monks to Egyptian mummies to Indian rakshasas to Afro-Carribean zombies -- none of which had ANY context. The cosmology mixed Nirvana and Devas with Judeo-Christian devils and others. The adventures likewise ranged all over in culture, from jungle-bound Dwellers of the Forbidden City to Near-Eastern Desert of Desolation series and so forth.

Quote from: tenbones on December 29, 2021, 10:19:43 AM
This always goes back to my claim: the dirty secret is Kara-Tur, Nyambe, Maztica, Al-Qadim didn't sell. Now we can argue about the qualitative differences between those settings, Maztica is a horrible representation of Mesoamerican fantasy which is a real shame. But Al-Qadim is ***fantastically*** good. But not enough people came out to support it.

The unshocking reality is that /gasp people like playing with what they know.

Quote from: tenbones on December 29, 2021, 10:19:43 AM
It's easier to make a Black Female Paladin in the European mold than to make a cool Black Female Fantasy Masai-Warrior that has their own cool schtick, or might be a Paladin analog culturally, call everyone Racist that disagrees even by implication. Let's make Hovito Knights in full plate with lances etc to rep South American's, instead of fantasy Feathered Serpent Warriors with obsidian blades as hard as steel, and their own cool "thing".

So you're saying that Paizo should make alternate settings like Al-Qadim, even after blatantly admitting that such settings were unsuccessful despite their quality?

Quote from: jhkim on December 29, 2021, 01:29:01 PM

Quote from: thedungeondelver on December 29, 2021, 11:19:27 AM

Quote from: jhkim on December 29, 2021, 01:37:37 AM
I don't think I ever played A2, but I fondly remember the tournament module A4 "In The Dungeons of the Slave Lords" -- where the characters are naked through the whole adventure. (They are technically given loincloths, but their only weapons are using the loincloths as slings.) Playing through the challenges was hilarious as we described them going through the fights with all their parts hanging out.

Nothing wrong with all-naked adventures and other material. But not every game line has to include everything. I'm pretty sure A4 would have been changed to add some clothes if it were part of BECMI or in the 2E era, for example.

Sure, I don't think everyone would argue that, for example, every comic book should include the same story elements and art styles of Heavy Metal magazine (nudity, graphic sex).  Archie can be Archie without Axa waltzing in to Riverdale and having a foursome with some characters; but leave the reading options available, says I.

Oh, I just thought of another one that would put Paizo in a tizzy: in G2 Glacial Rift of the Frost Giant Jarl, there's a storm giantess being held prisoner.  Gary mentions that the Jarl "desires her to be his leman" (the Jarl also has a wife), and is keeping her locked up denying her food and drink until she submits.  Again, another great rescue situation (although I debate the ease with which a mere Frost Giant could subdue a storm giantess in her wrath).

Another one Paizo would forbid you running.

Agreed, but sexualized violence is also a line where TSR would forbid you from running it, too. The original run of Module B3 "Palace of the Silver Princess" was recalled and copies destroyed because it had an illustrated scene of a woman tied up and threatened by a crowd of men - which turns out to be an illusion cast by a monster to draw the characters in to intervene. In the revised version, that encounter was cut along with a few other points.

Self-censorship has always been standard for mainstream game lines. If I want more edgy content than the default for a given game line, I can put it in for my own game - or just choose another game to play. B3 was more heavily self-censored since it was for the Basic Set, which was more family-friendly than AD&D. But there were still lines that AD&D wouldn't cross either.

The most edgy sexualized violence I've had in RPGs has been in Bluebeard's Bride (https://magpiegames.com/pages/bluebeards-bride) -- which is an explicitly feminist horror game.

Well perhaps my analogy was clumsy (including Axa everywhere in comics vs. separating them/fighting slavery in AD&D) but the point is not sexualized violence, rather, it is having truly villainous villains and villainesses to fight against.  The Slavers in the A series are bad guys.  Nothing is exalted about them, they aren't held up as grey area bad guys, there's no moral quandary "whatabout-isms" regarding them.  They.  Are.  Bad.

TSR did explicitly publish those adventures, and did explicitly publish G2, and a host of other modules with absolutely reprehensible bad guys in them.  What good is good if there's no bad guys to fight against?  The follow-ons to the G modules, the D series, has both the Kua Toa and Drow also committing such atrocities.  Take the sword to them, adventurers!

Keraptis in S2 White Plume Mountain has an entire funhouse dungeon filled with those he has enslaved: the Gynosphinx, Snarla, and the fighting-man who is in love with her, Bluto Sans Pite, and his fighting men, all are his slaves.  Whether you kill them (as you will probably have to in the case of Snarla and her lover, and given Sir Bluto's bounty and reputation, you'll want to), or liberate them, again, that's a Good Thing.  Of note the module also has a pair of Kelpies who promise pleasures of the flesh to their victims (before drowning them to eat them later).

Where I'm going with this is, in fantasy settings, the big bad evil guys, whether it's Sauron or whoever, they want power.  Lots of power.  And once they have it, short of killing to the last man, woman, and child everyone who opposed them, what do they do?  They subjugate them.  Nobody thinks this is a good act.  Nobody thinks this is awesome or fun.  Why say "The bad guys can't be that way, ever, we forbid it in your game"?  Why?  That doesn't make any sense at all.  Are they afraid that if a DM introduces a Keraptis or Slave Lords or Iuz or Drow that are evil, etc., that players will jump up and say HEY THAT'S SO COOL, I'M GLAD PAIZO GLORIFIED THIS AND WE CAN SEE HOW AWESOME THIS IS!!! and start trying to enslave people?  Or more realistically just think it's a cool thing to do?  Are they that...simple?  And I mean simple in the worst possible way.

(Interesting point: in Basic D&D, B2 has a Medusa - imprisoned in the Temple of Evil Chaos; the evil cleric there plans to "blind her, then remove her snakes, and sacrifice her to a chaotic evil god (not being above such things)."  )

I wanna toss something else in there about the 'surface level Tolkien pastiches' BCT was bitching about.

What do you think the chances are of getting something ethnically 'off the beaten path' so to speak? Especially in light of the wokescolds' tendency to scream 'cultural appropriation' over anything?

There's a reason we keep getting oatmeal. Because the worthless screaming fucks are scared of anything spicy.

Quote from: thedungeondelver on December 29, 2021, 03:47:13 PM
Where I'm going with this is, in fantasy settings, the big bad evil guys, whether it's Sauron or whoever, they want power.  Lots of power.  And once they have it, short of killing to the last man, woman, and child everyone who opposed them, what do they do?  They subjugate them.  Nobody thinks this is a good act.  Nobody thinks this is awesome or fun.  Why say "The bad guys can't be that way, ever, we forbid it in your game"?  Why?  That doesn't make any sense at all.  Are they afraid that if a DM introduces a Keraptis or Slave Lords or Iuz or Drow that are evil, etc., that players will jump up and say HEY THAT'S SO COOL, I'M GLAD PAIZO GLORIFIED THIS AND WE CAN SEE HOW AWESOME THIS IS!!! and start trying to enslave people?  Or more realistically just think it's a cool thing to do?  Are they that...simple?

I'm not a Pathfinder player and don't have any inside information to the authors' views, but here's what they say in the rules:

QuoteThe Pathfinder Baseline
You might find that your players don't have much to say on the topic of objectionable content, and just assume that general societal mores will keep the most uncomfortable topics out of the game. That's not always enough, as that approach relies on shared assumptions that aren't always accurate. The following is a set of basic assumptions that works for many groups, which you can modify to fit your preferences and those of the other players.
...

So, they explicitly say that people can modify the assumptions to fit their preferences. If a group prefers to have rape in their games, or graphic descriptions of gore, then they are free to do so. The assumptions are put as a baseline, and groups can change that by agreeing. The baseline is just there for if the players haven't made a separate agreement.

In my experience, nobody thinks that rape is a good act, either - but nevertheless many gaming groups avoid even having villains engage in it, because it makes some players uncomfortable. The reason isn't out of fear that if fictional rape happens that the players will become real-life rapists. It's possible to have a scene where the players interrupt some villains who are in the act of raping some victims. That can make for a powerful expression of their evil. However, most fantasy groups prefer to avoid that, as it makes the game less fun for them. I don't care to psychologize about why, but I have observed it in many groups. In real life, rape is more common as a crime than torture or slavery -- and it was even more common in historical times.

Is an issue that you can understand groups avoiding having rape happen in-game -- but that you consider slavery to be fundamentally different, and that it's less uncomfortable to appear than rape?

Those who preach tolerance, are usually the least tolerant of all.

They are also incapable of creating good gaming content.

Quote from: Jaeger on December 25, 2021, 04:18:29 PM
GW has largely been disinterested in WFRP, farming it out to 3rd party companies and collecting the license fee's. I don't see that changing anytime in the future. (It just doesn't bring in enough mini's sales to keep them overly interested.)

I tend to believe that someone will fill that void though.

I don't think WFRP needs anything beyond 1e, but if you're looking for a new RPG that has leaped into that genre, I highly suggest checking out MORK BORG because they have achieved dark-gonzo-fantasy nirvana where like early Warhammer, knew that it's over the top grimdark existed for an element of humor and "little victories against massive evil" was their niche.

Though Mork Borg has chosen an artpunk style that is especially jarring on purpose. For me, it works to differentiate their "brand of fantasy" from all others on the market which is smart, but artpunk is clearly not going to appeal to everyone.

Quote from: Jam The MF on December 29, 2021, 05:41:08 PM
Those who preach tolerance, are usually the least tolerant of all.

They are also incapable of creating good gaming content.

"There's only two things I can't stand in this world. People who are intolerant of other people's cultures... and the Dutch." -Nigel Powers

Quote from: jhkim on December 29, 2021, 02:55:01 PM

While the original D&D was more narrowly Tolkienesque European -- AD&D had a lot of cultural mix from the start. The AD&D core books shoe-horned in a lot of non-European material, from Chinese monks to Egyptian mummies to Indian rakshasas to Afro-Carribean zombies -- none of which had ANY context. The cosmology mixed Nirvana and Devas with Judeo-Christian devils and others. The adventures likewise ranged all over in culture, from jungle-bound Dwellers of the Forbidden City to Near-Eastern Desert of Desolation series and so forth.

I'm not disputing these claims you're citing, I'll circle back with that on you later. BUT do you think this counts as "representation" as demanded by the current devs at Paizo/WotC? I agree with you that those non-European elements existed and I'll go you one further, they did so for a specific potential purpose.

Quote from: jhkim on December 29, 2021, 02:55:01 PMSo you're saying that Paizo should make alternate settings like Al-Qadim, even after blatantly admitting that such settings were unsuccessful despite their quality?

I'm saying: They didn't even try.

It's much easier to pretend everyone else is racist for not accepting the odd non-contextual race-into-culture appearances and pass it off as "representation".

I'm saying in good faith that the very people that currently run Paizo, hired me back in the 3.e era to produce Al-Qadim content officially for 3e in Dragon Magazine, and I went hog-wild giving them tons of material, more than they asked for (which they even talked about in their Editorial columns) and they ended up publishing maybe 1/3rd of it. Contextually I gave them enough material for the purposes of introducing Eurocentric traditional Realms characters to Zakhara. Much of that was left on the cutting-room floor. (Ironically - some of it ended up in Best of Dragon).

The larger point being is that you have to have people invested in actual representation of a culture and DO it in good faith. There is no intention of that here.

So why claim everyone is racist without trying? Because as you damn well know (and this is where I would normally accuse you of playing stupid) they don't really care about "representation" they care about the virtue signaling and pretending to "care". And yes, as far back as 3e they were doing it.

I was pushing to do entire themed issues about getting Eurocentric Realms characters to go to Maztica, Kara-Tur, and Al-Qadim from the start... and the one venue where such content and adventures would have worked would have been in Dragon. But the current liberal SJW's that run Paizo *now* are the same ones that bitched out then long before it was stylish.

If you make a movie where everyone is rich, gay, 28, and from Singapore you can't get any more diverse than that. 

It is known.

Why should the more popular and the scrappy wanna be try hard garage rpgs be any different?

Signal is more important than reception and to feel is more important than to think or to demonstrate so WE MUST REPEAT!

A world that hates reality (or else) and only rewards (sanctified compelled) acting out will not tolerate random non astro-turfed bullshit from backsliders and free riding gudano trash. The past must be torn down after being strip mined and clipped and the results endlessly xeroxed so the new restrictive paradigm will be extruded per the transmitted fore-ordained approved whims of the designated bien pensant of the moment. The not-revolution will be corporatized. We must all be free to only ever repeat the recitation. Because Lovecraft is the KKK and rape. It is current year!

Quote from: tenbones on December 29, 2021, 10:19:43 AM

Ooo me! Ooo me!

Since for the vast majority of D&D's history the cultures (note: cultures not necessarily nationalities which is distinct from ethnicities) are real-world analogues that for obvious reasons mostly European.

The issue is the assumptions of writers trying to shoe-horn real world ethnicities (note: Ethnicities) into cultures (note: cultures) free of ANY context for the purposes of virtue signaling.

Now as an Asian guy, I ****DEARLY**** love Oriental Adventures when it dropped. Was it because representation? HELL NO. Though the fact the boxset did a fabulous job giving content to other Asian cultures other than the Fancy Asians (Chinese, Japanese, Koreans) - thanks Mike Pondsmith, the fact was it was simply cool to have a setting that wasn't the standard D&D European fare.

But here's the thing... if I'm looking for representation, *I* don't want to see a person of a different ethnicity repping a culture they're not supposed to be from as "ICONIC". I'm not saying there can't be Mexican Samurai, or Black Samurai, or whatever but there should be some serious context to that outlier.

I assume this is true for people that are of European descent too. The "problem" is that Paizo and WotC and the rest of the woke crowd want to pretend that cultures and ethnic groups all mingle in some post-modern bullshit reality which reeks of shit they would call "whitewashing" if done in reverse.

This always goes back to my claim: the dirty secret is Kara-Tur, Nyambe, Maztica, Al-Qadim didn't sell. Now we can argue about the qualitative differences between those settings, Maztica is a horrible representation of Mesoamerican fantasy which is a real shame. But Al-Qadim is ***fantastically*** good. But not enough people came out to support it.

The unshocking reality is that /gasp people like playing with what they know. Freaky old-school GM's like me will happily run a Marco Polo-esque campaign that takes everyone from Fantasy Ireland to Saudi-Arabia, to Imperial China and Japan, then landing on the Sacred Isles of the Elves and Jungle Dwarven Kingdoms without missing beat. Most GM's don't want to do that.

And these knuckleheads in Paizo and WotC want to pretend that their newfound religions explains this: people are racist.

No they're not. They're just playing a game and want to have fun. They maybe not be as ambitious, the writing of the non-European content may not be enticing enough, but rather than make a modern attempt - they insert these cardboard cutout ethnic people into their European settings and don't even bother supporting their own ethnic cultures in their own worlds.

And who is gonna argue? They keep churning out the same old vanilla-flavored shit and people keep buying.

It's easier to make a Black Female Paladin in the European mold than to make a cool Black Female Fantasy Masai-Warrior that has their own cool schtick, or might be a Paladin analog culturally, call everyone Racist that disagrees even by implication. Let's make Hovito Knights in full plate with lances etc to rep South American's, instead of fantasy Feathered Serpent Warriors with obsidian blades as hard as steel, and their own cool "thing".

Yeah "representation" my ass.

Edit: LET me be more clear. The reason they don't do these things is because THEY look down on other cultures as "sub-standard" instead of elevating them to something cool and useful. It's their own inherent bigotry that we poor people of color *need* representation rather than give everyone a good taste of something different that might analogous to non-European cultures.

I'm always very impressed by the eloquence of your posts, tenbones. This one hits the nail on the head so precisely it caused the nail to come out the other end of the board.

I have my moments.  :P

^ the quality of that smack down was of epic proportions. I salute you sir!

This is the sort of thing I hate for so many reasons.

It's such childish, immature, stupid thinking. To think that representing something as evil in a game somehow promotes it is absolute insanity. This is just a repeat of the Satanic panic but with people that are even MORE out of touch with reality. Not only does this undermine the framework of a lot of different monsters, it also destroys lore for other beings that have had to contend with the predilections of evil races.

What is even more insidious, however, is the unintended consequences I think. The thing about the people making these sorts of decisions at Paizo is that they are not intelligent. Flat-out. I went to school with these sorts of people (so much so that I had acquaintances at WoTC) and interacted with them. They're foolish, hyper-emotional, childish folk. They cannot cope with life. Then again, how would you expect them to when they make it obvious they cannot even cope with fiction?

And so, having accrued the results of a lifetime of bad choices which they will complain about endlessly while forever avoiding the mere possibility that these outcomes could be the results of their decisions (Perish the thought! It is forever and always the fault of some OTHER that has perpetrated this misery on them), they make further bad decisions because decisions are made without concept of the future...because they lack accurate knowledge of the past or, really, even a cogent awareness of present reality.

Stripping all these sorts of things from evil races & creatures (just as Wizards is now doing with their revisions) does nothing but serve to undermine the heroic narrative that BRINGS people to tabletop gaming.

No longer are Fire Giants evil slavers that must be stopped. No longer are Mind Flayers abominations to be routed. No longer is SLAVERY an evil to be curtailed since it simply doesn't exist.

Your "heroic" characters will find themselves without villains.

Tabletop gaming is a fictional construct that all but hinges on ludicrous, absurd, mountainous, brobdingnagian amounts of violence. If one were to objectively step away and look at the actions of regular PCs across tabletop gaming they would find themselves looking at individuals with bodycounts beneath their belts that would beggar belief.

How?

Why?

That's the thing...all this gaming psychologically relies on the existence of evil. TRUE evil. The sort of evil that is destroyed without much hesitation because destroying evil is just. Destroying evil is right. It's good.

When the fictional construct conjures up a being, a culture, a race that is truly evil, there doesn't have to be tedious reflection upon culling them. There doesn't have to be boring, self-involved, BORING navel-gazing. Might that sort of thing work in a book? In a movie? Etc? Yeah sure, of course...because those things are narratives only...but tabletop is a game and the grinder needs meat. The hero needs foes.

Otherwise it all comes to a stop.

Otherwise it becomes all a bit monstrous.

If there are no slavers to stop eventually there will be no kidnappers to stop. No pillagers. No killers.

No monsters.

Then what are you as a hero? Are you stopping every single moment to consider the full ramifications of killing that orc before you? Is it not as valid as you? What are its motivations? What brought it to this moment? When even a Beholder might be kind and innocent with the flip of a coin, how can you EVER be sure you're righteous?

You can't because you aren't. If you proceed...if you rack up that body count and allow yourself even a moment of self-awareness you'd realize you are the monster because you've killed scores of 'not-necessarily-evil-did-you-check-your-privilege-before-initiative' beings.

You are the monster. Self-flagellate. De-colonize your mind. Repent. Beg for forgiveness. Feel terrible. Feel as terrible as the people that make these changes feel every moment of their miserable, anxiety-ridden, train-wreck, dumpster-fire lives. Share in their misery and self-loathing.

They do not believe in heroes so they must make sure you cannot feel like one.

The game has collapsed because the fictional underpinnings it relied on have been stripped away by short-sighted idiots that typically use game-night as an excuse to gossip and whine rather than game.

This will fail.

This sort of thing always fails.

Of course, they'll blame someone else when it does...but it doesn't matter to those that see the charade for the exercise in self-indulgent mental illness it is.

Headline: Paizo cancels slavery in their fictional construct, gamers with common sense least affected.

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on December 29, 2021, 11:37:13 AMBaizuo is re-writing their entire game world based on one anonymous letter.  Who even knows if the person who wrote the letter is a actually a player, or even if they are offended.

I just (after sifting to the general information available on this new mental trainwreck) had a thought: Could it be that this is some kind of Astroturfing? That Paizo manufactured this opportunity for a display of righteousness by creating a "voice from the community" that they could "responsibly react" to? I don't know, just a thought.  ???

QuoteIt's not that the removal of slavery offends us.  It is one of the best evils to fight against.  It's right up there with human sacrifice, and cannibalism.  But the method that Baizuo uses to remove the slavery from their campaign setting is utterly laughable.  We aren't outraged at Baizuo.  We are eating popcorn and watching them self destruct...

TBH, depending on the setting, it's not even that. For a setting with a strong historical vibe, a straight-up historical setting, or those with an archaic or "dark" feel, it may be just a more or less normal background feature. An ancient Greek or Rome settings with or without the serial numbers filed off would simply feel nonsensical without slavery, as would a Viking setting.

I also get the distinct feeling that the folks at Paizo, like so many others, perceive everything through a narrow lense specific to US history. The various forms of servitude that persisted through all the historical eras that ostensibly influenced modern fantasy settings are not the same as Antebellum Southern US slavery. You can opine that they were morally the same (though I'd disagree), but you cannot opine that they were socially and materially the same because that is not an opinion but a falsification of facts.

P.S.: This reminds of the "scandal" when the PC RPG "Kingdom come" dared not to include black people in its 15th-century Bohemia setting. These criticisms were made by similar online activists (and their mindless sockpuppets) who similarly knew nothing of marginalized and discriminated groups that actually existed in the place and time the game was set in.
The difference was, of course, that the European developer basically told the critics to go f*ck themselves and went to rake in a massive amount of sales regardless.  8)

P.P.S.: One response supportive of Paizo seemed to be a good example of this, but maybe I read too much into it. It claimed that "cruel nobles" and "conquering warlords" would still be available as suitable villains even if "slavers" no longer were. And I had to ask myself (didn't respond, it was on reddit or something): What exactly do "cruel nobles" do? Not force their(!) peasants to work without recompensation, I assume? Nor take the fruits of their labor? Nor hurt, injure, even kill them without legal repercussions?
And "conquerors" do what with the conquered population? Plant a brutal-looking flag on city hall and then start hiring local laborers for freely negotiated wages, while leaving in place the local judiciary and administration as preferred by the local populace?
As I said, I might be overthinking this, but OTOH I believe that Paizo and their claqueurs are seriously underthinking it. Unless it is really only about forms of unfree labor that basically mimick those of 19th-century America, but what would be the point of that?

Quote from: Gog to Magog on January 05, 2022, 05:57:28 AM


That's the thing...all this gaming psychologically relies on the existence of evil. TRUE evil. The sort of evil that is destroyed without much hesitation because destroying evil is just. Destroying evil is right. It's good.

I really liked this part. I noticed that Basic Fantasy doesn't have alignment, and I didn't like that. It always seemed like ... a bit of a liberal cop-out. I prefer OSR games that keep alignment -- good and evil clearly defined.

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on December 29, 2021, 11:37:13 AM
Baizuo is re-writing their entire game world based on one anonymous letter.  Who even knows if the person who wrote the letter is a actually a player, or even if they are offended. 

What are the odds this leads to republishing 'clean' versions of everything allowing them to get a sales bump off of otherwise stagnant product.

A more important question is this:

Who among you will, knowing all this and ostensibly not liking it, buy it anyhow?

This will go for whatever passes as "evolved" DnD.

If you like this stuff, then it doesn't matter.

Quote from: tenbones on January 05, 2022, 02:48:58 PM
A more important question is this:

Who among you will, knowing all this and ostensibly not liking it, buy it anyhow?

This will go for whatever passes as "evolved" DnD.

If you like this stuff, then it doesn't matter.

"Buy."


Heh. Heh heh.

Quote from: Ruprecht on December 22, 2021, 08:26:30 PM
This reminds me of TSR removing demons & devils when Gygax should have gone offensive and told the ignorant religious folks that the demons & devils are bad guys intended to be defeated and only an idiot would think it was otherwise.

Wasn't that one of Lorraine's big ideas to "fix" the game? She has done too many stuff to remember everything...

The best (worst) part is that I'm currently playing a PF1 AP that literally starts with the party being slaves to pirates, and the first module is escaping said slavery. "Slavery is non-relevant" my ass.

Quote from: tenbones on January 05, 2022, 02:48:58 PM
A more important question is this:

Who among you will, knowing all this and ostensibly not liking it, buy it anyhow?

My sophisticated algorithm has calculated the chance I am going to purchase any current or future Paizo products as -2%, with a 2% margin of error.

I am really wondering what the endgame is, though. I can imagine a world in which all the bad things - oppression, slavery, discrimination, violence etc. - are fringe phenomenons only perpetrated by a small number of incorrigible insolents, and in which the PC heroes' (of any alignment? Whatever, standard PCs are good!) role is to put down these insurgents who are irrelevant to the world at large.

But is that a heroic game? To my mind, it is not. It's ironic, because in discussions about Traveller, I have always defended the Zhodani consulate as a viable, even enviable Sci-Fi picture of a human society. But I would never have recommended, or even allowed, Zhodani PCs - because a setting in which morally correct behaviour is universal and only small, similarly universally abhorred, pockets of deviance exist, simply does not allow for adventures in any sense I can think of.

If orcs are now racist stereotypes of black people according to wokism, who can be surprised at this?

Well, since Paizo wants to virtue signal....

Just as WOTC has Volo's Guide to Monsters; Paizo has the Monster Codex, for Pathfinder 1E.  It has a good long full page of lore expansion for each monstrous race, at the beginning of each race section.  They even used small type, to fit more lore content on the page.  They have a good write up about each "race" of monstrous humanoids.  Then they stat out several examples of each "race".  I have a hard copy, but I don't have access to it right now.  Of course, Orcs and Drow are included.  I bet there are some juicy nuggets there to be found.  And the Yuan-ti are in there, too.

Quote from: tenbones on January 05, 2022, 02:48:58 PM
A more important question is this:

Who among you will, knowing all this and ostensibly not liking it, buy it anyhow?

Not a chance in hell. I stopped giving Marvel and DC money years ago...neither Paizo nor WoTC get a dime from me either

Quote from: Gog to Magog on January 05, 2022, 05:57:28 AM
Your "heroic" characters will find themselves without villains.

At least we can still do fetch quests.

Maybe kill some boars.

Do a fishing mini-game.

The folks at Paizo are ashamed of slavery. 
It seems they must have had a huge part in it.

QuoteTabletop gaming is a fictional construct that all but hinges on ludicrous, absurd, mountainous, brobdingnagian amounts of violence.

Only... not? I mean sure D&D as derived from wargames is definitely violence prone, and people raised on video games are even more used to casual hack&slash, but there are wide arrays of Tabletop RPG's that does not hinges on absurd amounts of violences.

QuoteThat's the thing...all this gaming psychologically relies on the existence of evil. TRUE evil. The sort of evil that is destroyed without much hesitation because destroying evil is just. Destroying evil is right. It's good.

I'd say destroying evil because evil is like in bottom three of most boring aspects of gaming. I mean sure high tactical wargaming is cool - but do you really need some very thin veiled pretentious faux morality to engage in deadly combat? I mean sword & sorcery heroes were quite often ambiguous guys fighting other ambigous guys and it was damn cool.

QuoteTBH If those potential players love reckless violence so much... why not play video games really? Then what are you as a hero? Are you stopping every single moment to consider the full ramifications of killing that orc before you? Is it not as valid as you? What are its motivations? What brought it to this moment? When even a Beholder might be kind and innocent with the flip of a coin, how can you EVER be sure you're righteous?

And why do you need to feel righteous in elf-game, my friend? I mean did Conan has such needs? Or Fafhrd? I mean you know there are quite easy ways to achieve certain level of certainity without you know easy boxes. In fact I'd say most of fantasy and most of film with clear evil and good works quite fine without members of irreversibly evil races.
Trick is - it's of course mostly on GM side - you are either under unjust external attack as team (and then you know maybe it's just misunderstanding, but ultimately you are in right to defend itself), then there is defending others, and then there is avenging evil-doers that did something terrible. I mean if band of raiders burned a village, and kidnapped children to sell to slavers, does it matter for your heroes whether they are "always CE" horde of orcs wanting to sell to "always LE" fire giants, or maybe "any alignment" human raiders wanting to sell to "any alignment" human slavers.

Now of course you are right that removing various atrocities to fight is bad design for heroic game, and woke foolishness, but that's like another pair of shoes from always evil orc.

Quote
You are the monster. Self-flagellate. De-colonize your mind. Repent. Beg for forgiveness. Feel terrible. Feel as terrible as the people that make these changes feel every moment of their miserable, anxiety-ridden, train-wreck, dumpster-fire lives. Share in their misery and self-loathing.

They do not believe in heroes so they must make sure you cannot feel like one.

The game has collapsed because the fictional underpinnings it relied on have been stripped away by short-sighted idiots that typically use game-night as an excuse to gossip and whine rather than game.

I must say generally watching some D&D streams run mostly by woke streamers I see no such attitude. Sure there is removing racial alignments and so on, but those are still usually combat heavy games where diverse team of players destroy some Evil - like you now fantasy equivalent of Donald Trump and Proud Boys, let's say, but still - overall scheme is contained - you smack those who are considered evildoers in your game.

QuoteI really liked this part. I noticed that Basic Fantasy doesn't have alignment, and I didn't like that. It always seemed like ... a bit of a liberal cop-out. I prefer OSR games that keep alignment -- good and evil clearly defined.

Problem is alignment - just not racial alignment - is much better for woke games, with their moral puritan attitude and consantly treating anyone un-Woke as Evil.
It's much less suitable for Sword & Sorcery - which is rogue fantasy about thieving barbarian wanderers.

And let's be clear - alignment debate is quite ancient, and for most cases anti-alignment team has not been attacking alignment because of woke reasons, but because it's clunky, boring, and philosophically just ridiculous as basics of cosmology. That is something generally opposed to woke-ism (because strict alignement rules suits woke very well - with all Republicans as LE bigots, and all libertarians as CE tax-dodging child diddlers.).

QuoteJust as WOTC has Volo's Guide to Monsters; Paizo has the Monster Codex, for Pathfinder 1E.  It has a good long full page of lore expansion for each monstrous race, at the beginning of each race section.  They even used small type, to fit more lore content on the page.  They have a good write up about each "race" of monstrous humanoids.  Then they stat out several examples of each "race".  I have a hard copy, but I don't have access to it right now.  Of course, Orcs and Drow are included.  I bet there are some juicy nuggets there to be found.

PAIZO quite cleverly made drows to be result of curse so elf can drow-himself if he is evil enough, and good drow will de-drow. That with more hellish and less-black purple skin, and their curse being result of demon worship, allows basically to play drows as morally responsible for being drows not elves.
Their orcs on the other hand... XD

Quote from: Wrath of God on January 05, 2022, 09:36:07 PM

QuoteTabletop gaming is a fictional construct that all but hinges on ludicrous, absurd, mountainous, brobdingnagian amounts of violence.

Only... not? I mean sure D&D as derived from wargames is definitely violence prone, and people raised on video games are even more used to casual hack&slash, but there are wide arrays of Tabletop RPG's that does not hinges on absurd amounts of violences.

QuoteThat's the thing...all this gaming psychologically relies on the existence of evil. TRUE evil. The sort of evil that is destroyed without much hesitation because destroying evil is just. Destroying evil is right. It's good.

I'd say destroying evil because evil is like in bottom three of most boring aspects of gaming. I mean sure high tactical wargaming is cool - but do you really need some very thin veiled pretentious faux morality to engage in deadly combat? I mean sword & sorcery heroes were quite often ambiguous guys fighting other ambigous guys and it was damn cool.

QuoteTBH If those potential players love reckless violence so much... why not play video games really? Then what are you as a hero? Are you stopping every single moment to consider the full ramifications of killing that orc before you? Is it not as valid as you? What are its motivations? What brought it to this moment? When even a Beholder might be kind and innocent with the flip of a coin, how can you EVER be sure you're righteous?

And why do you need to feel righteous in elf-game, my friend? I mean did Conan has such needs? Or Fafhrd? I mean you know there are quite easy ways to achieve certain level of certainity without you know easy boxes. In fact I'd say most of fantasy and most of film with clear evil and good works quite fine without members of irreversibly evil races.
Trick is - it's of course mostly on GM side - you are either under unjust external attack as team (and then you know maybe it's just misunderstanding, but ultimately you are in right to defend itself), then there is defending others, and then there is avenging evil-doers that did something terrible. I mean if band of raiders burned a village, and kidnapped children to sell to slavers, does it matter for your heroes whether they are "always CE" horde of orcs wanting to sell to "always LE" fire giants, or maybe "any alignment" human raiders wanting to sell to "any alignment" human slavers.

Now of course you are right that removing various atrocities to fight is bad design for heroic game, and woke foolishness, but that's like another pair of shoes from always evil orc.

Quote
You are the monster. Self-flagellate. De-colonize your mind. Repent. Beg for forgiveness. Feel terrible. Feel as terrible as the people that make these changes feel every moment of their miserable, anxiety-ridden, train-wreck, dumpster-fire lives. Share in their misery and self-loathing.

They do not believe in heroes so they must make sure you cannot feel like one.

The game has collapsed because the fictional underpinnings it relied on have been stripped away by short-sighted idiots that typically use game-night as an excuse to gossip and whine rather than game.

I must say generally watching some D&D streams run mostly by woke streamers I see no such attitude. Sure there is removing racial alignments and so on, but those are still usually combat heavy games where diverse team of players destroy some Evil - like you now fantasy equivalent of Donald Trump and Proud Boys, let's say, but still - overall scheme is contained - you smack those who are considered evildoers in your game.

QuoteI really liked this part. I noticed that Basic Fantasy doesn't have alignment, and I didn't like that. It always seemed like ... a bit of a liberal cop-out. I prefer OSR games that keep alignment -- good and evil clearly defined.

Problem is alignment - just not racial alignment - is much better for woke games, with their moral puritan attitude and consantly treating anyone un-Woke as Evil.
It's much less suitable for Sword & Sorcery - which is rogue fantasy about thieving barbarian wanderers.

And let's be clear - alignment debate is quite ancient, and for most cases anti-alignment team has not been attacking alignment because of woke reasons, but because it's clunky, boring, and philosophically just ridiculous as basics of cosmology. That is something generally opposed to woke-ism (because strict alignement rules suits woke very well - with all Republicans as LE bigots, and all libertarians as CE tax-dodging child diddlers.).

QuoteJust as WOTC has Volo's Guide to Monsters; Paizo has the Monster Codex, for Pathfinder 1E.  It has a good long full page of lore expansion for each monstrous race, at the beginning of each race section.  They even used small type, to fit more lore content on the page.  They have a good write up about each "race" of monstrous humanoids.  Then they stat out several examples of each "race".  I have a hard copy, but I don't have access to it right now.  Of course, Orcs and Drow are included.  I bet there are some juicy nuggets there to be found.

PAIZO quite cleverly made drows to be result of curse so elf can drow-himself if he is evil enough, and good drow will de-drow. That with more hellish and less-black purple skin, and their curse being result of demon worship, allows basically to play drows as morally responsible for being drows not elves.
Their orcs on the other hand... XD

The Yuan-ti are in there, too.

Please do not defame name of proud Ydersius' children with comparisons with those half-Human, half-Chinese, mutant abominations from Faerun :P

Quote from: Wulfhelm on January 05, 2022, 01:07:49 PM

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on December 29, 2021, 11:37:13 AMBaizuo is re-writing their entire game world based on one anonymous letter.  Who even knows if the person who wrote the letter is a actually a player, or even if they are offended.

I just (after sifting to the general information available on this new mental trainwreck) had a thought: Could it be that this is some kind of Astroturfing? That Paizo manufactured this opportunity for a display of righteousness by creating a "voice from the community" that they could "responsibly react" to? I don't know, just a thought.  ???

Considering how many other companies do this. Its very possible.

The other option is that they are copying WOTC and baiting for outrage marketing. Tell people one thing to get them to scream. Rake in free advertising. Then the actual product is just another Candlekeep.

Quote from: Wrath of God on January 05, 2022, 09:36:07 PM

QuoteJust as WOTC has Volo's Guide to Monsters; Paizo has the Monster Codex, for Pathfinder 1E.  It has a good long full page of lore expansion for each monstrous race, at the beginning of each race section.  They even used small type, to fit more lore content on the page.  They have a good write up about each "race" of monstrous humanoids.  Then they stat out several examples of each "race".  I have a hard copy, but I don't have access to it right now.  Of course, Orcs and Drow are included.  I bet there are some juicy nuggets there to be found.

PAIZO quite cleverly made drows to be result of curse so elf can drow-himself if he is evil enough, and good drow will de-drow. That with more hellish and less-black purple skin, and their curse being result of demon worship, allows basically to play drows as morally responsible for being drows not elves.
Their orcs on the other hand... XD

Baizuo has been so weird about this I wonder if they have some kind of institutional schizophrenia.

The phenomenon of an elf 'falling' and becoming a drow is a thing in PF, but it's usually (a) plot device, and (b) it is not ICly well known at all. It's a HUGE thing in the Second Darkness path because the PCs witness it and it can cause a bit of consternation among those elf rulers who DO know about it.

And that's okay. It's like a call back to how the drow in Dragonlance work.

This same campaign also hangs a big ol' lampshade on Drizzt and straight up says, 'drow who don't conform to the usual modes of evil are thought to have some kind of mental issue -- sometimes their society tries an intervention or even therapy, but if that doesn't work the poor fucker gets to be guest of honor at the next sacrificial rite to the patron demon'.

(Part of me wonders how therapy to make you properly evil would work. I am a bit amused.)

I can't help but think that Baizuo was trying to grab a little attention away from WotC with the slavery announcement.

I think it was a second attempt at smoke and mirrors to deflect the attention of one of their own Doxxing a poster if you count using a poster real first name as doxxing. With the allegations that they were Transphobic because one employee refused to sleep in the same room as a Transperson.

They tried virtue signalling celebrating every and any ethnic flavour of the month and the perpetual victim trans fans were having none of it. Then they tried appealing to their self-righteous outrage with slavery and it worked. Being of a continual mindset of being a victim they either did not realizes they were conned and well pasted by Paizo or don't care. Remember many of them think it's good and right to treat others poorly because they were in the part for whatever carefully constructed personal narrative. Yeah the hypocrisy and irony is outstanding.

So I will give credit to Paizo for pulling it off as it is working so far.

QuoteWith the allegations that they were Transphobic because one employee refused to sleep in the same room as a Transperson.

Other way round. Girl employee and transgirl employee wanted to share a room during business trip, and company said no.

It is also worth noting that the hotel room situation occurred before Washington state law and by extension, their liability insurance considered that individual to be anything other than a biological male.

The company made the right business decision to reduce the potential risk of lawsuits regardless of if the two friends wanted to stay together but the fucking rabid wokescold brain-damaged activist stanbase that rallies behind the WORST fucking influencers and hypocrites imaginable couldn't wrap their mind around the fact that the company had no other choice but to say no, especially since one of the two were the others superior in the chain of command.

Don't worry though, Book of the Dead is going to drop as it was written before the whole JP scandal and slavery avoi-dance started and since it is centrally themed around the evilest and corrupt nations and individuals/actions in the setting it's bound to trigger plenty of folks yet again in order to inflate the egos and ratio-hunger of the same crowd that wants to control the company.

In this case don't feel sorry one bit for Paizo as they allowed and still allow them to be biullied by the immature mentally deranged SJWs.

They came off and still  come off as abject spineless pathetic cowards simply because they fear being seen as not Woke.

When they had the AP where players took the role as police they came off as a low level mob flunky apologizing to the Mob boss simply for including them. Again coming off as scared cowards.

When they were accused of transphobia and doxxing they let the same mentally deranged Wokescolds just run rampant for months in their forum. Again because for fear of not being Woke and cowards

A close friend in my gaming circle tried to explain it as them living in Seattle yet even then do because they live in one of the Woke Capitals in the world they have no self-respect as individuals or as a company.

So fuck them they reap what they sow. 

Quote from: Ghostmaker on December 28, 2021, 03:29:26 PM

Quote from: thedungeondelver on December 28, 2021, 02:49:22 PM
"Owning slaves or profiting from the slave trade
Reprehensible uses of mind-control magic
Villains might engage in such acts, but they won't happen "on-screen" or won't be described in detail. Many groups choose to not have villains engage in these activities at all, keeping these reprehensible acts out of mind entirely."

Somebody better never tell these frail, shirking daisies that the "A" series exists or else they'll all die of The Vapors.  Quick, get the fainting couches!

In case you're curious, in A2, there's a whole dungeon area where we meet up with Markessa, an elven magic-user who is fucked up six ways from Sunday.  She force-breeds different races together and accidentally created the Boggle from her experiments, she has labs full of surgery disasters and cast-offs, she has repeatedly (via magic) erased and rewritten the mind of a female slave who is not an elf but she has surgically altered (not Polymorph...no, she cut the woman up) to look like an elf, specifically her, to work as a body double - and she (Markessa) isn't even Drow.  She's just that fucked up.

She is a villainess and killing her should be a crowning achievement for the party, as well as liberating and healing those she's hurt.  But I guess in Paizo's universe that is nicht gerwehr and not permitted.

Anyway, pinkos, eat your own.  I'll be pointing and laughing.

Holy shit. I gotta find that module.

The whole "A" series is good (Against the Slave Lords).

Quote from: Abraxus on January 07, 2022, 09:18:13 AM
In this case don't feel sorry one bit for Paizo as they allowed and still allow them to be biullied by the immature mentally deranged SJWs.

They came off and still  come off as abject spineless pathetic cowards simply because they fear being seen as not Woke.

When they had the AP where players took the role as police they came off as a low level mob flunky apologizing to the Mob boss simply for including them. Again coming off as scared cowards.

When they were accused of transphobia and doxxing they let the same mentally deranged Wokescolds just run rampant for months in their forum. Again because for fear of not being Woke and cowards

A close friend in my gaming circle tried to explain it as them living in Seattle yet even then do because they live in one of the Woke Capitals in the world they have no self-respect as individuals or as a company.

So fuck them they reap what they sow.

They remind me of John Cena apologizing to China about his recognizing Taiwan.

Quote from: HappyDaze on January 07, 2022, 10:18:27 AM

Quote from: Abraxus on January 07, 2022, 09:18:13 AM
In this case don't feel sorry one bit for Paizo as they allowed and still allow them to be biullied by the immature mentally deranged SJWs.

They came off and still  come off as abject spineless pathetic cowards simply because they fear being seen as not Woke.

When they had the AP where players took the role as police they came off as a low level mob flunky apologizing to the Mob boss simply for including them. Again coming off as scared cowards.

When they were accused of transphobia and doxxing they let the same mentally deranged Wokescolds just run rampant for months in their forum. Again because for fear of not being Woke and cowards

A close friend in my gaming circle tried to explain it as them living in Seattle yet even then do because they live in one of the Woke Capitals in the world they have no self-respect as individuals or as a company.

So fuck them they reap what they sow.

They remind me of John Cena apologizing to China about his recognizing Taiwan.

I heard he changed his name to John Xi-na

Quote from: Wrath of God on January 06, 2022, 02:58:00 PM

QuoteWith the allegations that they were Transphobic because one employee refused to sleep in the same room as a Transperson.

Other way round. Girl employee and transgirl employee wanted to share a room during business trip, and company said no.

I know some companies have rules like that for safety/legal reasons. "No male and female sharing a room." and a trans would fall under that from one or the other angle. Assuming Paizo really said such a thing it is not surprising they would adapt that rule as well. Odds are WOTC does as well because that was the leverage the women used way back to take over the company.

So Paizo might have actually been doing exactly what feminists and SJWs have been demanding. Making the workplace "safe" for women. But of course that is good only till a woman doesnt want to. Then its bad.

But who knows what Paizo was up to. Sane decisions are not something they are renowned for anymore.

Well yes, that was probably it, and if given trans-employee was not formally re-assigned in documents then by law (and common sense) she was a dude.

Quote from: Wrath of God on January 08, 2022, 05:12:02 AM
Well yes, that was probably it, and if given trans-employee was not formally re-assigned in documents then by law (and common sense) she was a dude.

How dare they not protect that woman and even ignored the local law while doing so!

How dare those transphobes act bigoted against that wonderful and flawless transwoman!

Damned if they do, damned if they don't...and utterly deserving of it.

I love when they eat their own.

Quote from: Wrath of God on January 08, 2022, 05:12:02 AM
Well yes, that was probably it, and if given trans-employee was not formally re-assigned in documents then by law (and common sense) she was a dude.

This is quite literally exactly what happened. The individual was not legally, in their birth state, on their birth cert, on their Washington state ID, nor in on the Paizo payroll as anything other than a male. They identified as trans-female but there wasn't actually any functional legal path yet laid out where they could formally have their gender identity changed at that point as the laws in that state as well as where they were born had not been updated/changed to the point where the reassignment could exist in legal terms.

If this person would have been sentenced to prison (not saying they ever broke any laws that would ever warrant that nor deserve to be imprisoned at all btw) they would have been thrown in with all other biological men for at two full years after this incident took place as they weren't legally female in the eyes of the law, biologically, nor had this person been able to afford or otherwise get approved for gender reassignment surgery.

Paizo made the right move but because the story broke AFTER the law changed the brainless tweetlord cultural and legal presentist activist Jessica Price stan-base didn't give a flying fuck about the reality of things. Oh, and it's also worth mentioning that this individual was ALSO fired around the same time as JP for being a toxic and unproductive piece of shit as well, go figure.

QuoteThis is quite literally exactly what happened. The individual was not legally, in their birth state, on their birth cert, on their Washington state ID, nor in on the Paizo payroll as anything other than a male. They identified as trans-female but there wasn't actually any functional legal path yet laid out where they could formally have their gender identity changed at that point as the laws in that state as well as where they were born had not been updated/changed to the point where the reassignment could exist in legal terms.

I mean it's hard for me to believe that liberal cesspit that is State of Washington had not proper reassignment legal procedure existing at least since 80's? That's sound insane considering whole correction thing was legal in even conservative European countries for decades.

QuotePaizo made the right move but because the story broke AFTER the law changed the brainless tweetlord cultural and legal presentist activist Jessica Price stan-base didn't give a flying fuck about the reality of things. Oh, and it's also worth mentioning that this individual was ALSO fired around the same time as JP for being a toxic and unproductive piece of shit as well, go figure.

I mean I thought it was case with this whole Crystal something dude-ette? AFAIK he left on her own... and there was lot of books they authored. I mean of course woke as hell, but as someone regularly skimming through PF adventures for ideas to appropriate for my un-woke campaings, xer name was one of few I recognised as regular.

Quote from: Wrath of God on January 08, 2022, 05:53:25 PM


I mean I thought it was case with this whole Crystal something dude-ette? AFAIK he left on her own... and there was lot of books they authored. I mean of course woke as hell, but as someone regularly skimming through PF adventures for ideas to appropriate for my un-woke campaings, xer name was one of few I recognised as regular.

I love how you mixed up all the pronouns up here: he, her, they, xer

I can't stop laughing.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on January 06, 2022, 08:44:13 AM

Quote from: Wrath of God on January 05, 2022, 09:36:07 PM

QuoteJust as WOTC has Volo's Guide to Monsters; Paizo has the Monster Codex, for Pathfinder 1E.  It has a good long full page of lore expansion for each monstrous race, at the beginning of each race section.  They even used small type, to fit more lore content on the page.  They have a good write up about each "race" of monstrous humanoids.  Then they stat out several examples of each "race".  I have a hard copy, but I don't have access to it right now.  Of course, Orcs and Drow are included.  I bet there are some juicy nuggets there to be found.

PAIZO quite cleverly made drows to be result of curse so elf can drow-himself if he is evil enough, and good drow will de-drow. That with more hellish and less-black purple skin, and their curse being result of demon worship, allows basically to play drows as morally responsible for being drows not elves.
Their orcs on the other hand... XD

Baizuo has been so weird about this I wonder if they have some kind of institutional schizophrenia.

The phenomenon of an elf 'falling' and becoming a drow is a thing in PF, but it's usually (a) plot device, and (b) it is not ICly well known at all. It's a HUGE thing in the Second Darkness path because the PCs witness it and it can cause a bit of consternation among those elf rulers who DO know about it.

And that's okay. It's like a call back to how the drow in Dragonlance work.

This same campaign also hangs a big ol' lampshade on Drizzt and straight up says, 'drow who don't conform to the usual modes of evil are thought to have some kind of mental issue -- sometimes their society tries an intervention or even therapy, but if that doesn't work the poor fucker gets to be guest of honor at the next sacrificial rite to the patron demon'.

(Part of me wonders how therapy to make you properly evil would work. I am a bit amused.)

I can't help but think that Baizuo was trying to grab a little attention away from WotC with the slavery announcement.

Wait... so in Pathfinder if an elf acts too evil then they develop black skin? Wow. That sounds super racist. /s

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 09, 2022, 06:43:06 PMWait... so in Pathfinder if an evil acts too evil then they develop black skin? Wow. That sounds super racist.

And your a super moron. Dark = Evil is a thing in every goddam culture because humans are not nocturnal.
Black people don't relate themselves to demons or orcs because 'Wow their black just like us!'.

You fucking love just finding basic universal elements in fiction and screaming 'racist' because it makes you feel smart or enlightened.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on January 09, 2022, 06:58:17 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 09, 2022, 06:43:06 PMWait... so in Pathfinder if an evil acts too evil then they develop black skin? Wow. That sounds super racist.

And your a super moron. Dark = Evil is a thing in every goddam culture because humans are not nocturnal.
Black people don't relate themselves to demons or orcs because 'Wow their black just like us!'.

You fucking love just finding basic universal elements in fiction and screaming 'racist' because it makes you feel smart or enlightened.

I was being sarcastic. I should have put some /s in there.

But to be fair, "cursed with black skin for sinning" is an actual thing that some racists used to believe about black people in real life. Some still believe it.

I find it ironic that a progressive outlet would use this in their work.

What is the grammar for a non-binary singular they pronoun?

"You see a cleric, they has no sword."

Cleric used to imply someone with no sword.  TEEHEE

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 09, 2022, 08:01:00 PMI was being sarcastic. I should have put some /s in there.

Then I apologize. The nature of prog arguments makes it very hard to distinguish satire from true belief.

QuoteBut to be fair, "cursed with black skin for sinning" is an actual thing that some racists used to believe about black people in real life. Some still believe it.

Meh. I feel people are too caught up in fringe beliefs.

QuoteI find it ironic that a progressive outlet would use this in their work.

Past Paizo wasn't as prog as they are now.

I guess you could interpret it as racist, if you were a paint-chip eating SJW.

Also, Second Darkness discusses what it takes for an elf to fall (and remember, as GM you don't even have to run the Second Darkness AP). Typically just being evil won't cut it. It has to be a betrayal of your very ideals -- something that would cause, in OSR terms, a full on alignment shift. There are plenty of evil elves in Golarion who haven't become drow.

It's very similar to a paladin falling from grace and becoming a blackguard.

A guard of color.

QuoteWait... so in Pathfinder if an elf acts too evil then they develop black skin? Wow. That sounds super racist. /s

More dark purple. But... yes :3

QuoteBut to be fair, "cursed with black skin for sinning" is an actual thing that some racists used to believe about black people in real life. Some still believe it.

Ah, yes. Mark of Cain presbies.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 09, 2022, 06:43:06 PM
Wait... so in Pathfinder if an elf acts too evil then they develop black skin? Wow. That sounds super racist. /s

Its even worse, they turn into PoCs!

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on January 09, 2022, 09:17:14 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 09, 2022, 08:01:00 PMI was being sarcastic. I should have put some /s in there.

Then I apologize. The nature of prog arguments makes it very hard to distinguish satire from true belief.

It's called Poe's law. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law)

I checked with my agents in Libya, and so far the slave markets have not shown any decrease in sales, so thus far, Paizo's efforts have not affected the actual slave-trade.

I'll keep everyone notified of any changes or good deals I hear about.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on January 09, 2022, 09:40:45 PM
I guess you could interpret it as racist, if you were a paint-chip eating SJW.

Also, Second Darkness discusses what it takes for an elf to fall (and remember, as GM you don't even have to run the Second Darkness AP). Typically just being evil won't cut it. It has to be a betrayal of your very ideals -- something that would cause, in OSR terms, a full on alignment shift. There are plenty of evil elves in Golarion who haven't become drow.

It's very similar to a paladin falling from grace and becoming a blackguard.

Blackguards don't become literally black-skinned as a result of falling, tho. They wear black spiky outfits more for the cool factor than anything else.

Come to think of it, I suppose that in the world of White Man's Burden (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Man%27s_Burden_(film)), D&D's elves are normally pointy-eared black african-featured, the drow were cursed with white skin (but still afro-featured), and SJWs complain about how racist this is against white people (and albinos and people with vitiligo) and that we need better white representation in fantasy. Also, orcs are a racist caricature of white people and other non-African indigenous peoples. Can you imagine?

Sounds great BCT - write this setting, I'm gonna play hell in it.

Quote from: Wrath of God on January 10, 2022, 05:21:19 PM
Sounds great BCT - write this setting, I'm gonna play hell in it.

I'm not comfortable with writing a setting like that because it feels racist against white people. I get enough "whitey bad!" from watching the mainstream media.

Im not sure SJWs acknowledge racism against white people. But albinism maybe.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 10, 2022, 01:19:18 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on January 09, 2022, 09:40:45 PM
I guess you could interpret it as racist, if you were a paint-chip eating SJW.

Also, Second Darkness discusses what it takes for an elf to fall (and remember, as GM you don't even have to run the Second Darkness AP). Typically just being evil won't cut it. It has to be a betrayal of your very ideals -- something that would cause, in OSR terms, a full on alignment shift. There are plenty of evil elves in Golarion who haven't become drow.

It's very similar to a paladin falling from grace and becoming a blackguard.

Blackguards don't become literally black-skinned as a result of falling, tho. They wear black spiky outfits more for the cool factor than anything else.

Come to think of it, I suppose that in the world of White Man's Burden (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Man%27s_Burden_(film)), D&D's elves are normally pointy-eared black african-featured, the drow were cursed with white skin (but still afro-featured), and SJWs complain about how racist this is against white people (and albinos and people with vitiligo) and that we need better white representation in fantasy. Also, orcs are a racist caricature of white people and other non-African indigenous peoples. Can you imagine?

I have no idea what you're trying to argue here.

I would like to note that drow and orcs are not black people, and if you are trying to equate them you are super fucking racist.

Try actually telling most POC they look like Drow and Orcs and wonder why they yell at you or worse kick your ass. I notice many of them say it though never to a POC directly.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on January 11, 2022, 09:04:00 AM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 10, 2022, 01:19:18 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on January 09, 2022, 09:40:45 PM
I guess you could interpret it as racist, if you were a paint-chip eating SJW.

Also, Second Darkness discusses what it takes for an elf to fall (and remember, as GM you don't even have to run the Second Darkness AP). Typically just being evil won't cut it. It has to be a betrayal of your very ideals -- something that would cause, in OSR terms, a full on alignment shift. There are plenty of evil elves in Golarion who haven't become drow.

It's very similar to a paladin falling from grace and becoming a blackguard.

Blackguards don't become literally black-skinned as a result of falling, tho. They wear black spiky outfits more for the cool factor than anything else.

Come to think of it, I suppose that in the world of White Man's Burden (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Man%27s_Burden_(film)), D&D's elves are normally pointy-eared black african-featured, the drow were cursed with white skin (but still afro-featured), and SJWs complain about how racist this is against white people (and albinos and people with vitiligo) and that we need better white representation in fantasy. Also, orcs are a racist caricature of white people and other non-African indigenous peoples. Can you imagine?

I have no idea what you're trying to argue here.

I would like to note that drow and orcs are not black people, and if you are trying to equate them you are super fucking racist.

It was a tangent on the universality of human psychology. I'm not trying to equate anything, so kindly get thee behind me there Adversary.

Anyway, people are going to see racist parallels in works that weren't intended to be racist tracts. I doubt Gygax was intentionally invoking the Curse of Ham when he wrote the drow (e.g. racists tracts don't draw the minorities they hate to look like supermodels), but people are going to see the resemblance and they are going to take offense even if none was intended.

That's why I try to take pains not to accidentally offend marketable demographics. I may disagree with different political views or fail to understand why so and so minority takes offense at something, but I still want their views and monies. Is it annoying to have to steer clear of certain topics like people being cursed with a particular skin color for the sins of their ancestors? Fuck yeah, but I value my livelihood more than my artistic integrity.

Quote from: Abraxus on January 11, 2022, 09:27:35 AM
Try actually telling most POC they look like Drow and Orcs and wonder why they yell at you or worse kick your ass. I notice many of them say it though never to a POC directly.

I've seen plenty of PoC say it on Twitter. I don't see the resemblance. Intentional racist caricatures try to make real people look as ugly as possible for obvious reasons, but modern art draws all drow and around half of orcs as desirable supermodels. That number increases to about 99% of orcs if we include erotic artwork.

Also, if you look closely at typical drow and orc art... whenever their features are comparable to human faces they invariably have Caucasoid features. I have never seen art of orcs with dreadlocks that didn't draw them like sexy hunky romance novel heroes.

You guys don't understand. Someone once made a racist comment, and made certain allusions as part of that comment (black Africans were cursed with dark skin because they fell from grace), that means any superficially similar allusions (a fictional race of fantasy people became black because they're evil) are the same and objectively racist. And the only interpretations that can ever arise from such allusions can only be racist, because someone made a racist comment one day. So other interpretations (black is the color of night and darkness, and universally associated with evil across all cultures around the world, which is why dark elves are also black in Norse mythology) can never be valid, and the only interpretation we can accept is that it's racist and therefore objectively offensive.

You racists.

Quote from: VisionStorm on January 11, 2022, 10:07:30 AM
You guys don't understand. Someone once made a racist comment, and made certain allusions as part of that comment (black Africans were cursed with dark skin because they fell from grace), that means any superficially similar allusions (a fictional race of fantasy people became black because they're evil) are the same and objectively racist. And the only interpretations that can ever arise from such allusions can only be racist, because someone made a racist comment one day. So other interpretations (black is the color of night and darkness, and universally associated with evil across all cultures around the world, which is why dark elves are also black in Norse mythology) can never be valid, and the only interpretation we can accept is that it's racist and therefore objectively offensive.

You racists.

You made a couple mistakes in your research:

Black is not universally associated with evil. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheSacredDarkness

There's no evidence that dark elves in Norse myth were literally black-skinned. Or even what we would think of as elves, since they were dwarves. They also weren't evil. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svart%C3%A1lfar

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 11, 2022, 12:15:52 PMBlack is not universally associated with evil. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheSacredDarkness

Ah, TV tropes, the ultimate source of knowledge. Alongside wikapedia, the great bearers of wisdom. Use better sources.

Also our understanding of Norse Mythology isn't fully complete because it was relayed by christian monks observing a culture mostly dead at the time, after it underwent subjegation by romans. Thats why the difference between dwarves or elves is fuzzy and incomplete. How in some they are fine craftsmen, and in others they are greedy and cruel.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on January 11, 2022, 12:47:17 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 11, 2022, 12:15:52 PMBlack is not universally associated with evil. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheSacredDarkness

Ah, TV tropes, the ultimate source of knowledge. Alongside wikapedia, the great bearers of wisdom. Use better sources.

Aside from tvtropes there are no essays on how blackness is not seen as universally evil in world cultures. I guess nobody thought it was important enough to write about.

Here's a better source: Nyx and Erebus are the primordial deities of night and darkness in Greek myth and they aren't evil. The yin force in Taoism is associated with darkness and isn't evil. So no, blackness is not universally associated with evil in human culture worldwide.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on January 11, 2022, 12:47:17 PM
Also our understanding of Norse Mythology isn't fully complete because it was relayed by christian monks observing a culture mostly dead at the time, after it underwent subjegation by romans. Thats why the difference between dwarves or elves is fuzzy and incomplete. How in some they are fine craftsmen, and in others they are greedy and cruel.

So it can't be used to argue that Norse mythology had black-skinned elves who were black because they were evil.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 11, 2022, 12:15:52 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on January 11, 2022, 10:07:30 AM
You guys don't understand. Someone once made a racist comment, and made certain allusions as part of that comment (black Africans were cursed with dark skin because they fell from grace), that means any superficially similar allusions (a fictional race of fantasy people became black because they're evil) are the same and objectively racist. And the only interpretations that can ever arise from such allusions can only be racist, because someone made a racist comment one day. So other interpretations (black is the color of night and darkness, and universally associated with evil across all cultures around the world, which is why dark elves are also black in Norse mythology) can never be valid, and the only interpretation we can accept is that it's racist and therefore objectively offensive.

You racists.

You made a couple mistakes in your research:

Black is not universally associated with evil. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheSacredDarkness

There's no evidence that dark elves in Norse myth were literally black-skinned. Or even what we would think of as elves, since they were dwarves. They also weren't evil. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svart%C3%A1lfar

Positive (or neutral) depictions of Darkness also exist, therefore negative depictions of darkness cannot be found the world over?

Shrieking Banshee already covered issues about dark elves.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 11, 2022, 01:13:24 PM

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on January 11, 2022, 12:47:17 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 11, 2022, 12:15:52 PMBlack is not universally associated with evil. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheSacredDarkness

Ah, TV tropes, the ultimate source of knowledge. Alongside wikapedia, the great bearers of wisdom. Use better sources.

Aside from tvtropes there are no essays on how blackness is not seen as universally evil in world cultures. I guess nobody thought it was important enough to write about.

Here's a better source: Nyx and Erebus are the primordial deities of night and darkness in Greek myth and they aren't evil. The yin force in Taoism is associated with darkness and isn't evil. So no, blackness is not universally associated with evil in human culture worldwide.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on January 11, 2022, 12:47:17 PM
Also our understanding of Norse Mythology isn't fully complete because it was relayed by christian monks observing a culture mostly dead at the time, after it underwent subjegation by romans. Thats why the difference between dwarves or elves is fuzzy and incomplete. How in some they are fine craftsmen, and in others they are greedy and cruel.

So it can't be used to argue that Norse mythology had black-skinned elves who were black because they were evil.

The Yin and Yang represent polarity of forces where Yin (Black) represents the negative side. And it's not exclusively evil and the Yin Yang symbol represents a balance of forces, and such matters are complex in Eastern traditions, but it still uses black to represent Yin/Negative for a reason.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 11, 2022, 01:13:24 PMHere's a better source

Also taken from TV tropes. Il hand it to you and say its not a purely universal thing. But its like pitbulls. Not all pitbulls are universally more aggressive. But as a rule they are (and nothing against pitbulls, it just means you need more experience as a owner).
Kali for instance is a nuanced goddess with elements of death, and life (depends on the instance). Order and chaos. But she was a goddess of dark complexion that came about after another goddess purged darkness that came to be her skin after she absorbed a demon.
So black skin = evil isn't an uncommon mythological element even if there is nuance involved. It warrants no apologies or take-backs if ever included.

QuoteSo it can't be used to argue that Norse mythology had black-skinned elves who were black because they were evil.

Yes. You are correct.

Okay then.

In the event that the SJWs create those hypothetical white drow I mentioned earlier (they've done crazier shit already so I wouldn't put it past them, especially as white people become a persecuted minority in western countries), if you guys complain that it's racist then I will write a strongly worded letter expressing my indignation.

A lot of bickering here hinging on the word "universal."

Nothing cultural is absolutely universal, but often cultural ideas or practices are universal enough to register as significant. There. Are we all good now?

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 11, 2022, 05:10:32 PM
Okay then.

In the event that the SJWs create those hypothetical white drow I mentioned earlier (they've done crazier shit already so I wouldn't put it past them, especially as white people become a persecuted minority in western countries), if you guys complain that it's racist then I will write a strongly worded letter expressing my indignation.

Your hypothetical white drow with black African looking elves is such an obvious inversion it would come off as SJW cringe. But I could definitely see a race of European looking evil creatures cursed with "deathly paleness" as a sign of their evil. Maybe make them vampires or something. Evil bloodsucking "deathly pale" white devils that come from the abyssal depths of the earth!

Quote from: VisionStorm on January 11, 2022, 06:48:10 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 11, 2022, 05:10:32 PM
Okay then.

In the event that the SJWs create those hypothetical white drow I mentioned earlier (they've done crazier shit already so I wouldn't put it past them, especially as white people become a persecuted minority in western countries), if you guys complain that it's racist then I will write a strongly worded letter expressing my indignation.

Your hypothetical white drow with black African looking elves is such an obvious inversion it would come off as SJW cringe. But I could definitely see a race of European looking evil creatures cursed with "deathly paleness" as a sign of their evil. Maybe make them vampires or something. Evil bloodsucking "deathly pale" white devils that come from the abyssal depths of the earth!

Some scholars have seriously proposed that Dracula is Slavophobic and Nosferatu is antisemitic (altho there's little evidence the parallels were intentional, since Stoker was Irish and several of Murnau's actors were Jewish). So it's a small leap to anti-white.

Quote from: VisionStorm on January 11, 2022, 06:48:10 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 11, 2022, 05:10:32 PM
Okay then.

In the event that the SJWs create those hypothetical white drow I mentioned earlier (they've done crazier shit already so I wouldn't put it past them, especially as white people become a persecuted minority in western countries), if you guys complain that it's racist then I will write a strongly worded letter expressing my indignation.

Your hypothetical white drow with black African looking elves is such an obvious inversion it would come off as SJW cringe. But I could definitely see a race of European looking evil creatures cursed with "deathly paleness" as a sign of their evil. Maybe make them vampires or something. Evil bloodsucking "deathly pale" white devils that come from the abyssal depths of the earth!

Mystara actually has that, i forget the name its like Schatenalfen

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 11, 2022, 08:38:06 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on January 11, 2022, 06:48:10 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 11, 2022, 05:10:32 PM
Okay then.

In the event that the SJWs create those hypothetical white drow I mentioned earlier (they've done crazier shit already so I wouldn't put it past them, especially as white people become a persecuted minority in western countries), if you guys complain that it's racist then I will write a strongly worded letter expressing my indignation.

Your hypothetical white drow with black African looking elves is such an obvious inversion it would come off as SJW cringe. But I could definitely see a race of European looking evil creatures cursed with "deathly paleness" as a sign of their evil. Maybe make them vampires or something. Evil bloodsucking "deathly pale" white devils that come from the abyssal depths of the earth!

Some scholars have seriously proposed that Dracula is Slavophobic and Nosferatu is antisemitic (altho there's little evidence the parallels were intentional, since Stoker was Irish and several of Murnau's actors were Jewish). So it's a small leap to anti-white.

Some scholars are seriously idiotic and want to figure out ways to be offended by everything. This is why Academia has turned into a fart smelling exercise.

Quote from: Slambo on January 11, 2022, 08:38:15 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on January 11, 2022, 06:48:10 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 11, 2022, 05:10:32 PM
Okay then.

In the event that the SJWs create those hypothetical white drow I mentioned earlier (they've done crazier shit already so I wouldn't put it past them, especially as white people become a persecuted minority in western countries), if you guys complain that it's racist then I will write a strongly worded letter expressing my indignation.

Your hypothetical white drow with black African looking elves is such an obvious inversion it would come off as SJW cringe. But I could definitely see a race of European looking evil creatures cursed with "deathly paleness" as a sign of their evil. Maybe make them vampires or something. Evil bloodsucking "deathly pale" white devils that come from the abyssal depths of the earth!

Mystara actually has that, i forget the name its like Schatenalfen

Figured someone would have beat me to it. There's probably other settings with similar stuff.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 11, 2022, 05:10:32 PM
Okay then.

In the event that the SJWs create those hypothetical white drow I mentioned earlier (they've done crazier shit already so I wouldn't put it past them, especially as white people become a persecuted minority in western countries), if you guys complain that it's racist then I will write a strongly worded letter expressing my indignation.

Shadar-Kai?
"They had dusky gray skin and colorless complexions that varied from alabaster to dark gray", described as cold, emotionless and un-empathetic.
They also serve the Raven Queen, who is not Lolth, but also not a creature of Good or Light either.
To be featured in the upcoming Mordenkainen's rehash of playable races and monsters with problematic lore excised. Coming this spring.

Is that white enough or pseudo-Drow enough?  IDK, but it's something that comes to mind.

Quote from: DM_Curt on January 12, 2022, 07:57:30 AM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 11, 2022, 05:10:32 PM
Okay then.

In the event that the SJWs create those hypothetical white drow I mentioned earlier (they've done crazier shit already so I wouldn't put it past them, especially as white people become a persecuted minority in western countries), if you guys complain that it's racist then I will write a strongly worded letter expressing my indignation.

Shadar-Kai?
"They had dusky gray skin and colorless complexions that varied from alabaster to dark gray", described as cold, emotionless and un-empathetic.
They also serve the Raven Queen, who is not Lolth, but also not a creature of Good or Light either.
To be featured in the upcoming Mordenkainen's rehash of playable races and monsters with problematic lore excised. Coming this spring.

Is that white enough or pseudo-Drow enough?  IDK, but it's something that comes to mind.

Yeesh. I imagine WotC will play up the "evil white people" stuff even though they said it's racist to make so and so races inherently evil.

Also, has anyone else noticed that every major shadar-kai and drow character in the fiction is typically some sexy hero or sexy villainess that falls in love with the hero/ine and gets redeemed by love if they weren't already? In BG2 you actually rescue an innocent drow from a hate crime.

I get where PoC gamers are coming from when they say they don't like the Curse of Ham rehash, but it's hard to stay sympathetic to that when D&D fiction focuses so much on heroic or redeemed drow and playing up the whole "drow may be evil, but they're sexy and stylish and mary sues who are chaotic evil but magically maintain a strong hierarchical civilization and blah blah blah."

Nothing makes sense to me! At this point I'm convinced Corellon cursed them with black skin because he was a racist misogynist who hated black women but also found them irresistibly beautiful and hates Lolth because she dumped him for being an incel.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 12, 2022, 10:57:34 AM
At this point I'm convinced Corellon cursed them with black skin because he was a racist misogynist who hated black women but also found them irresistibly beautiful and hates Lolth because she dumped him for being an incel.

IMC this is pretty much the Drow version of the Corellon-Lolth creation myth!

The drow tell the legend of how the Great Mother was betrayed by the Traitor Lover. So Lolth cast Corellon out from the Bosom of the Earth, where he and all his children would be cursed forever by the burning flames of the sun, bleached until their flesh was pale as bone.

Quote from: S'mon on January 12, 2022, 11:01:34 AM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 12, 2022, 10:57:34 AM
At this point I'm convinced Corellon cursed them with black skin because he was a racist misogynist who hated black women but also found them irresistibly beautiful and hates Lolth because she dumped him for being an incel.

IMC this is pretty much the Drow version of the Corellon-Lolth creation myth!

The drow tell the legend of how the Great Mother was betrayed by the Traitor Lover. So Lolth cast Corellon out from the Bosom of the Earth, where he and all his children would be cursed forever by the burning flames of the sun, bleached until their flesh was pale as bone.

LOL. Reminds me of black liberation theology and the hallucinations about Yakub.

Also, BCT needs to stop eating crayons. The 'innocent drow' in BG2 he references is Viconia, an outcast drow priestess of Shar and very distinctly NOT innocent.

Not really a hate crime when the victim is a devotee of a goddess who's caused no small amount of trouble in the FR setting.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 12, 2022, 10:57:34 AM

Quote from: DM_Curt on January 12, 2022, 07:57:30 AM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 11, 2022, 05:10:32 PM
Okay then.

In the event that the SJWs create those hypothetical white drow I mentioned earlier (they've done crazier shit already so I wouldn't put it past them, especially as white people become a persecuted minority in western countries), if you guys complain that it's racist then I will write a strongly worded letter expressing my indignation.

Shadar-Kai?
"They had dusky gray skin and colorless complexions that varied from alabaster to dark gray", described as cold, emotionless and un-empathetic.
They also serve the Raven Queen, who is not Lolth, but also not a creature of Good or Light either.
To be featured in the upcoming Mordenkainen's rehash of playable races and monsters with problematic lore excised. Coming this spring.

Is that white enough or pseudo-Drow enough?  IDK, but it's something that comes to mind.

Yeesh. I imagine WotC will play up the "evil white people" stuff even though they said it's racist to make so and so races inherently evil.

Also, has anyone else noticed that every major shadar-kai and drow character in the fiction is typically some sexy hero or sexy villainess that falls in love with the hero/ine and gets redeemed by love if they weren't already? In BG2 you actually rescue an innocent drow from a hate crime.

I get where PoC gamers are coming from when they say they don't like the Curse of Ham rehash, but it's hard to stay sympathetic to that when D&D fiction focuses so much on heroic or redeemed drow and playing up the whole "drow may be evil, but they're sexy and stylish and mary sues who are chaotic evil but magically maintain a strong hierarchical civilization and blah blah blah."

Nothing makes sense to me! At this point I'm convinced Corellon cursed them with black skin because he was a racist misogynist who hated black women but also found them irresistibly beautiful and hates Lolth because she dumped him for being an incel.

All roads lead to bigotry. This is what happens when you lack nuanced thinking or the ability to recognize that multiple (seemingly contradictory, but not mutually exclusive) things can be true at once. Or that actual bigotry is reliant on context and not content—specially superficial similarities between things subjectively considered "bigoted" in specific contexts and other things that share neither the context nor the exact contents.

Just because one group of people once used a myth (that wasn't even originally bigoted from what I've read of it) to justify bigoted views, that doesn't mean that all myths or pseudo-mythical fantasy write ups that even remotely resemble that coopted myth must also be bigoted or share bigoted purposes or intentions.

Context matters, and superficially similar things aren't the same content, even if context was irrelevant. Which it isn't.

(And this isn't even touching on whether "PoC" actually say any of this stuff, as opposed to just people of a particular political persuasion, or out of touch "academics" high in their own farts).

Quote from: Ghostmaker on January 12, 2022, 11:33:49 AM

Quote from: S'mon on January 12, 2022, 11:01:34 AM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 12, 2022, 10:57:34 AM
At this point I'm convinced Corellon cursed them with black skin because he was a racist misogynist who hated black women but also found them irresistibly beautiful and hates Lolth because she dumped him for being an incel.

IMC this is pretty much the Drow version of the Corellon-Lolth creation myth!

The drow tell the legend of how the Great Mother was betrayed by the Traitor Lover. So Lolth cast Corellon out from the Bosom of the Earth, where he and all his children would be cursed forever by the burning flames of the sun, bleached until their flesh was pale as bone.

LOL. Reminds me of black liberation theology and the hallucinations about Yakub.

Also, BCT needs to stop eating crayons. The 'innocent drow' in BG2 he references is Viconia, an outcast drow priestess of Shar and very distinctly NOT innocent.

Not really a hate crime when the victim is a devotee of a goddess who's caused no small amount of trouble in the FR setting.

Yeah Viconia is the kind of drow your mother warned you about.

Quote from: horsesoldier on January 12, 2022, 03:01:08 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on January 12, 2022, 11:33:49 AM

Quote from: S'mon on January 12, 2022, 11:01:34 AM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 12, 2022, 10:57:34 AM
At this point I'm convinced Corellon cursed them with black skin because he was a racist misogynist who hated black women but also found them irresistibly beautiful and hates Lolth because she dumped him for being an incel.

IMC this is pretty much the Drow version of the Corellon-Lolth creation myth!

The drow tell the legend of how the Great Mother was betrayed by the Traitor Lover. So Lolth cast Corellon out from the Bosom of the Earth, where he and all his children would be cursed forever by the burning flames of the sun, bleached until their flesh was pale as bone.

LOL. Reminds me of black liberation theology and the hallucinations about Yakub.

Also, BCT needs to stop eating crayons. The 'innocent drow' in BG2 he references is Viconia, an outcast drow priestess of Shar and very distinctly NOT innocent.

Not really a hate crime when the victim is a devotee of a goddess who's caused no small amount of trouble in the FR setting.

Yeah Viconia is the kind of drow your mother warned you about.

Absolute freak in the sack though :D

It also not helped that she is an NPC who can be recruited yet of an evil alignment in both versions of BG. Which also causes friction between party members and a 2 point loss in reputation in the BG1.

You guys are aware that you're ragging on an empowered she-elf of colour from a persecuted religious minority, right?

Ray cist AF!  >:(

Quote from: Ghostmaker on January 12, 2022, 11:33:49 AM

Quote from: S'mon on January 12, 2022, 11:01:34 AM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 12, 2022, 10:57:34 AM
At this point I'm convinced Corellon cursed them with black skin because he was a racist misogynist who hated black women but also found them irresistibly beautiful and hates Lolth because she dumped him for being an incel.

IMC this is pretty much the Drow version of the Corellon-Lolth creation myth!

The drow tell the legend of how the Great Mother was betrayed by the Traitor Lover. So Lolth cast Corellon out from the Bosom of the Earth, where he and all his children would be cursed forever by the burning flames of the sun, bleached until their flesh was pale as bone.

LOL. Reminds me of black liberation theology and the hallucinations about Yakub.

Also, BCT needs to stop eating crayons. The 'innocent drow' in BG2 he references is Viconia, an outcast drow priestess of Shar and very distinctly NOT innocent.

Not really a hate crime when the victim is a devotee of a goddess who's caused no small amount of trouble in the FR setting.

It's been decades since I played. My memory is spotty.

The problem with innocent drow is that no matter how inanely convoluted their background may be, they walk under a piercer and TWAK that's it.
(https://i.imgur.com/8h5UNqi.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/fPcmEb8.png)

Quote from: Wrath of God on January 10, 2022, 05:21:19 PM
Sounds great BCT - write this setting, I'm gonna play hell in it.

Its called Zootopia.  8)

So how can you have a game where the idea is to rescue a slave or help fight it like Spartacus?

Quote from: Redwanderer on January 14, 2022, 02:30:26 PM
So how can you have a game where the idea is to rescue a slave or help fight it like Spartacus?

You can't. That's against the rules. Not that rules have ever stopped gamers from playing their own way.

Well, at least they won't be ripping off Against the Slave Lords

It's "Against the FireSpray Gunship Lords" now.