I am just glad that I bought a copy of Primeval Thule when I did.  There's slavery all over that setting.  Slavers are one of the main antagonists.

The kind of "gamers" that WotC is bringing into the hobby have no value to the long term health of the hobby. WotC has shit the bed and now draws people who enjoy sniffing farts.

I will argue that the hobby has ALWAYS drawn in the most new good gamers by the actions of good gamers who run good games.

It's not rocket science. Get invited to a new event you never tried before and that new event turns out to be great fun with a group of fun people and...how shocking...you get excited about attending their next event, and the next, and then you want to host your own.

But that's about growing the hobby, not the industry. They are not the same, nor as intertwined as people think.

For hobbyists, we really only need the hobby to survive (and the hobby includes all the small press kids selling their homebrews).

From what I heard, Wotc is looking into some kind of lifestyle brand.
If true they may not actually care about growing the hobby we know.

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on December 24, 2021, 07:22:54 PM
I am just glad that I bought a copy of Primeval Thule when I did.  There's slavery all over that setting.  Slavers are one of the main antagonists.

My players LOVE kicking Marg around! They're about to meet that Margish princess who wants to reform the city. Will be interesting to see if they divert from their current quest (to assassinate a new Great Kal rising on the Narthan Highlands) to help her out.

Quote from: S'mon on December 25, 2021, 04:23:27 AM

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on December 24, 2021, 07:22:54 PM
I am just glad that I bought a copy of Primeval Thule when I did.  There's slavery all over that setting.  Slavers are one of the main antagonists.

My players LOVE kicking Marg around! They're about to meet that Margish princess who wants to reform the city. Will be interesting to see if they divert from their current quest (to assassinate a new Great Kal rising on the Narthan Highlands) to help her out.

I follow your blog.  It is a pleasure to read about these games you run.

I have mostly moved over to Discord these days - I can PM you a link to server if you like?

Quote from: Mind Crime on December 23, 2021, 09:54:53 PM
"Reprehensible use of magic". This reminded me of game. DM is randomly rolling for spells in the captured spellbook of a wizard.
Hold Person
Grease
Enlarge
Silence
and some others
It was basically like seeing someone at Wal-Mart buying duct tape and zip ties, mask and gloves. Yes, jokes were made and laughs were had and we are terrible people but come on.

Don't feel bad. My group would've been making all the same jokes.

Quote from: Spinachcat on December 24, 2021, 08:57:04 PM
The kind of "gamers" that WotC is bringing into the hobby have no value to the long term health of the hobby. WotC has shit the bed and now draws people who enjoy sniffing farts.

Um, wrong thread?

Quote from: Fergurg on December 24, 2021, 02:36:20 AM
I do have some good news. Erik Mona clarified his statement. It seems that what's actually happening is that products in the future will not be focusing on slavery, but that they are not going to just have it disappear; it's just going to be deep in the background.

Ahh, so they will memory hole slavery in Golarion by simply never mentioning it again, rather than go through the trouble of editing all their past material.

Given their current circumstances, I can see how they would embrace the solution that will take the least effort.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on December 24, 2021, 01:41:11 PM

Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on December 24, 2021, 01:03:53 PMIt would do more for the health of rpg's than anything else, in my opinion. Sometimes a fire in the forest is what is needed to allow new growth.

Or sometimes its like a pillar that gives out and crushes all the other tenants. Id say most people get into TRPGs from D&D name branding. Without those two, id wager the next big thing would be GW and Warhammer. Your replacing one scumcorp for another.

Although Baizuo and WotC are in the process of self-destruction, (With Baizuo seemingly the more eager of the two.) It will still take several years before we see the fruits of the seeds they are currently sowing.

GW has largely been disinterested in WFRP, farming it out to 3rd party companies and collecting the license fee's. I don't see that changing anytime in the future. (It just doesn't bring in enough mini's sales to keep them overly interested.)

I tend to believe that someone will fill that void though.

It is not obvious now who that will be, but I still think that it is more likely someone will step up rather than just walk away from a 'power vacuume' that a failed D&D would leave behind.

If even Zweihander can manage to get into book stores, there is hope for the future.

...I didn't intend to become a regular here. Retired Rafe is retired from online discussions.

...That said, the stupidity of this topic makes my fingers itch:

https://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo6shvp&page=17?Paizo-Leadership-Team-Update#815

So, I don't play PF, and I only have very cursory knowledge of the setting. From what I learned in the above link and in other similar sources, the core problem seems to have been this:

An adventure (or Adventure Path) seems to have featured a scenario in which slaves first rise up against their masters, but then make their peace with them, and take over the defense of the city in exchange for their legal freedom. Spartacus fights Rome first, and with all the fervor from the raunchy TV series from a few years ago, but then decides to make a deal, voluntarily puts himself and his troops back into the service of the former slavers again (like, back to full we-are-not-people-we-are-things-status) and only then proceeds to fight the nasty enemy of the slavers for them. The return to slavery is a constituting element of the story as presented. (Haven't found out how the story is supposed to end, yet.)

...And that, if true, is just AMAZING. Current US political issues notwithstanding, I can hardly think of a more stupid way to treat the topic in a PG-13 sword-and-sorcery setting. Like, holy shit.

Imagine being the standard DM, and having to sell this idea to your Black girlfriend, roomie, gym pal, or whatever. That gaming group is probably not gonna last very long after that, as are your relationships to those people. Again: Hooooly shit. Paizo doesn't make games that interest me, usually. But they have experienced pros in command, usually. How in all the hells could this happen?

In the 1980s, Robert Asprin created "Thieves' World", and slavery and people being objectified is a big thing there. And guess what? - Half through the books, the city is overrun by an enemy army, and the former slavers get their payback this way. Brilliant, nuanced, pitch-black dark way of treating the topic. 35 years later, we get this shit. What has happened to the hobby, my-oh-my?!

Quote from: Rafael on December 25, 2021, 04:28:58 PM
...I didn't intend to become a regular here. Retired Rafe is retired from online discussions.

...That said, the stupidity of this topic makes my fingers itch:

https://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo6shvp&page=17?Paizo-Leadership-Team-Update#815

So, I don't play PF, and I only have very cursory knowledge of the setting. From what I learned in the above link and in other similar sources, the core problem seems to have been this:

An adventure (or Adventure Path) seems to have featured a scenario in which slaves first rise up against their masters, but then make their peace with them, and take over the defense of the city in exchange for their legal freedom. Spartacus fights Rome first, and with all the fervor from the raunchy TV series from a few years ago, but then decides to make a deal, voluntarily puts himself and his troops back into the service of the former slavers again (like, back to full we-are-not-people-we-are-things-status) and only then proceeds to fight the nasty enemy of the slavers for them. The return to slavery is a constituting element of the story as presented. (Haven't found out how the story is supposed to end, yet.)

...And that, if true, is just AMAZING. Current US political issues notwithstanding, I can hardly think of a more stupid way to treat the topic in a PG-13 sword-and-sorcery setting. Like, holy shit.

Imagine being the standard DM, and having to sell this idea to your Black girlfriend, roomie, gym pal, or whatever. That gaming group is probably not gonna last very long after that, as are your relationships to those people. Again: Hooooly shit. Paizo doesn't make games that interest me, usually. But they have experienced pros in command, usually. How in all the hells could this happen?

In the 1980s, Robert Asprin created "Thieves' World", and slavery and people being objectified is a big thing there. And guess what? - Half through the books, the city is overrun by an enemy army, and the former slavers get their payback this way. Brilliant, nuanced, pitch-black dark way of treating the topic. 35 years later, we get this shit. What has happened to the hobby, my-oh-my?!

I wonder if they were trying to go for something akin to how black troops were recruited during the American Civil War?

Still, boy howdy I'd hate to try and sell that plotline to ANYONE.

Oh no!  Who will my PCs fight if they cant fight evil white female slavers?

One start to think what the end-goal of the woke products will be if there are no antagonists, no monsters, no conflicts.

Are the Players adventurers whose greatest deeds will be to save kittens down from trees?

Quote from: Wntrlnd on December 25, 2021, 07:41:07 PM
One start to think what the end-goal of the woke products will be if there are no antagonists, no monsters, no conflicts.

Are the Players adventurers whose greatest deeds will be to save kittens down from trees?

The adventurers that find common ground with the misunderstood bad guy and solve the problem peacefully and equitably are the true heroes!

Quote from: hedgehobbit on December 25, 2021, 07:49:34 PM

Quote from: Wntrlnd on December 25, 2021, 07:41:07 PM
One start to think what the end-goal of the woke products will be if there are no antagonists, no monsters, no conflicts.

Are the Players adventurers whose greatest deeds will be to save kittens down from trees?

The adventurers that find common ground with the misunderstood bad guy and solve the problem peacefully and equitably are the true heroes!

Unless the bad guys are "oppressors", in which case all bets are off.