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Author Topic: Owen KC Stephens' Tabletop RPG Truths  (Read 13245 times)

Orphan81

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Owen KC Stephens' Tabletop RPG Truths
« Reply #75 on: June 17, 2020, 02:47:06 AM »
I've written as a professional Freelancer, and I've also work in the Department of Corrections..

Guess what... Working in a prison is Harder. But it sure pays me a fuck ton more and gives me great benefits.

I wrote for RPG's when I was in Grad School. I'd really like to do it again, most likely I will on my own stuff... this day and age it's so easy to just write stuff you want and put it up.

If you want to make a decent living, then take a job doing something society values more. It's as simple as that. RPGs are a niche hobby for a niche audience. Kevin Crawford has stated numerous times he's never quit his day Job, and he's massively successful as a single operation guy. Clearly he does this though for the love, not because he wanted it to become his main source of income (though kudos to him for being so successful).

I just don't have a lot of sympathy for RPG writers who complain about not getting paid enough. Maybe because I've seen it from both sides now. Yeah you bet working in a Prison is part of the reason why I'm not churning out new writing projects, but that's my own fault. At the end of the day most human beings don't get to live off of the fruits of their art... it's a hobby for them which if they're very very lucky they can make some extra scratch from. But for most of us, we have to actually work for a living.
1. Some of you culture warriors are so committed to the bit you'll throw out any nuance or common sense in fear it's 'giving in' to the other side.

2. I'm a married homeowner with a career and a child. I won life. You can't insult me.

3. I work in a Prison, your tough guy act is boring.

GeekyBugle

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Owen KC Stephens' Tabletop RPG Truths
« Reply #76 on: June 17, 2020, 09:10:06 AM »
Quote from: FelixGamingX1;1134539
Didn't read his post but there's significant harassment in this industry and I don't know why. I wrote from 2018 to 2020 and simply realized my skills can be better used elsewhere when you measure profits vs hassle. Best way to change things is to support legit indie authors like me. My first game got scrutinized for being too OSR by SJW standards. My second book is a success. Yet, people that enjoy it don't leave reviews very often. Bottom line, people love to spread negativism over positivity in the hobby, and that should change.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1134551
a) Pimp yer stuff! Links in your signature line!

b) Always ask for reviews. We install re-marketing tools for all our clients and one of the most successful tools has been an automated request for reviews. People need to be prompted to leave positive reviews. Don't tell them what to say, but express how important reviews are to small press folk and please share what you enjoy about our games.

c) The internet is so negative because the West is spoiled and ungrateful. It's not enough that I can get what I want instantly! My every whim must be fulfilled and nobody must disagree with me! It's an issue far beyond the hobby. Yelp and Amazon reviews are like mental illness on parade. Thus the need to request reviews from happy customers.

What Spinachat said times 2
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell

Zirunel

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Owen KC Stephens' Tabletop RPG Truths
« Reply #77 on: June 17, 2020, 09:32:04 AM »
Quote from: Pat;1134546
Thanks!

Interesting, those prices don't match either mine or the blog's, and it's 2–4 years after the books were initially available.

Mine weren't that cheap either, a few years earlier. I got mine, also mail order, but from gaming/wargaming stores. I suspect the price drop may have to do with a retailing shift:

either from high-overhead specialty stores in the 70s to high-volume retailers, or

from marketing to a gaming niche in the 70s to the beginnings of mass marketing to a wider public

or likely  a combination of the two.

oggsmash

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« Reply #78 on: June 17, 2020, 11:58:36 AM »
I think I paid 15 or 18 in 1981 for the MM.

ArtemisAlpha

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« Reply #79 on: June 17, 2020, 01:03:30 PM »
I was in the industry more than a decade ago, first as a writer, then as a publisher. A lot of this list would have been true then, too.

But there is one thing I wanted to respond to:

Quote from: Omega;1134346

The problem is not that the books are overprice. They are overpriced usually for a reason. A BAD one.

That being the damn push for colour art and usually lots of it and the mania that this actually sells the book. Not the game. Kill this fad off and book prices would drop. But as long as publishers keep believing this lie then the books are going to cost alot more.


So, I had the opportunity to partner with a company that did two versions of their products, one with full color art, and one that was a plain text, well laid out version of the rules, but with no art. The page count on the latter was often up to 25% less. The quality of cover, paper, binding were the same - they came from the same printer. The cover of the black and white version was, if I recall, 2 color rather than 4 color.

Anyway, even though the artless version was significantly less expensive, the full color version sold tons better. I can only speak to convention sales, but our restocks for the full color version were about five times the restocks for the artless version.

And that 'fad' is why RPG books are full color - they sell better. A lot better. While you may not want them, in general, RPG purchasers do.

Zalman

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Owen KC Stephens' Tabletop RPG Truths
« Reply #80 on: June 17, 2020, 01:07:52 PM »
Quote from: ArtemisAlpha;1134654
I was in the industry more than a decade ago, first as a writer, then as a publisher. A lot of this list would have been true then, too.

But there is one thing I wanted to respond to:



So, I had the opportunity to partner with a company that did two versions of their products, one with full color art, and one that was a plain text, well laid out version of the rules, but with no art. The page count on the latter was often up to 25% less. The quality of cover, paper, binding were the same - they came from the same printer. The cover of the black and white version was, if I recall, 2 color rather than 4 color.

Anyway, even though the artless version was significantly less expensive, the full color version sold tons better. I can only speak to convention sales, but our restocks for the full color version were about five times the restocks for the artless version.

And that 'fad' is why RPG books are full color - they sell better. A lot better. While you may not want them, in general, RPG purchasers do.

Hm, "color art" vs "no art" seems like it's about the presence of art more than it is about the presence of color. Do you have any experience with how well books stuffed with high-quality black-and-white art sell? Would high-quality black-and-white art cost significantly less than color art of the same quality?
Old School? Back in my day we just called it "School."

oggsmash

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« Reply #81 on: June 17, 2020, 01:15:29 PM »
Quote from: Zalman;1134655
Hm, "color art" vs "no art" seems like it's about the presence of art more than it is about the presence of color. Do you have any experience with how well books stuffed with high-quality black-and-white art sell? Would high-quality black-and-white art cost significantly less than color art of the same quality?

  Being a DCC fan, I wonder about this as well.  No art is well....not to my liking.   I feel the color thing has been researched enough, they do it for good reason, at least the big dogs.   The BEST reason to do it if you are the big dog, is to set a new precedent for minimal expectations that your competitors can not match though.   I wonder if D&D switched to a presentation similar to DCC, with good art, but all Black and white and no slick paper if it would hurt their sales a lot, or hurt sales a little in increase bottom line significantly.  I think they are doing well enough not to bother trying to fix what is not broken.

Shrieking Banshee

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Owen KC Stephens' Tabletop RPG Truths
« Reply #82 on: June 17, 2020, 02:14:04 PM »
Quote from: hedgehobbit;1134273
"The majority of TTRPG professionals--staffers, freelancers, owners, et al., are substantially underpaid for their skills."  


Ah, I see why social justice has done so well with sticking TTRPGs comrade. Seize the means of production and redistribute them to the proletariate writers!
I feel RPGs most directly follow commercial patterns. TTRPGs don't have unions and its not a hobby that requires a license or much skill for changing stuff or getting in. Its probably one of the purest capitalist creative industries out there.

I see tabletop RPGs as an awesome hobby where you can occasionally get paid as a cherry on top (and I'm a freelance TTRPG writer). If you wanna get paid more owens make less garbage.

GeekyBugle

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« Reply #83 on: June 17, 2020, 02:27:12 PM »
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1134663
Ah, I see why social justice has done so well with sticking TTRPGs comrade. Seize the means of production and redistribute them to the proletariate writers!
I feel RPGs most directly follow commercial patterns. TTRPGs don't have unions and its not a hobby that requires a license or much skill for changing stuff or getting in. Its probably one of the purest capitalist creative industries out there.

I see tabletop RPGs as an awesome hobby where you can occasionally get paid as a cherry on top (and I'm a freelance TTRPG writer). If you wanna get paid more owens make less garbage.

Or publish your own stuff instead of writing for others, of course that has way more risks than being a paid drone but the fruits will be yours and yours alone.

Take a page out of Grim, Pundit and many others, look at what many are now doing with comics, selling one GN and making One Million Dollars!
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell

Shrieking Banshee

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Owen KC Stephens' Tabletop RPG Truths
« Reply #84 on: June 17, 2020, 02:33:17 PM »
As for UBI, I worry much more about the social effects moreso then if it's really possible (which I doubt). No Universal Basic Income system will ever be Universal or Basic or a type of Income.

I think a better catchphrase might be 'Conditional Beurocratic Welfare'. And Id say humanity being at the point of needing a CBW is more of a horrific outcome then a solution.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2020, 02:36:10 PM by Shrieking Banshee »

Ratman_tf

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Owen KC Stephens' Tabletop RPG Truths
« Reply #85 on: June 17, 2020, 02:37:07 PM »
Quote from: ArtemisAlpha;1134654
I was in the industry more than a decade ago, first as a writer, then as a publisher. A lot of this list would have been true then, too.

But there is one thing I wanted to respond to:



So, I had the opportunity to partner with a company that did two versions of their products, one with full color art, and one that was a plain text, well laid out version of the rules, but with no art. The page count on the latter was often up to 25% less. The quality of cover, paper, binding were the same - they came from the same printer. The cover of the black and white version was, if I recall, 2 color rather than 4 color.

Anyway, even though the artless version was significantly less expensive, the full color version sold tons better. I can only speak to convention sales, but our restocks for the full color version were about five times the restocks for the artless version.

And that 'fad' is why RPG books are full color - they sell better. A lot better. While you may not want them, in general, RPG purchasers do.


I like art. I like color, when appropriate. I like how Dungeon Crawl Classics is mostly black and white art reminiscent of the old D&D books. I like Pathfinder/Starfinder full color art on every other page.
I hate RPGs that have no art. My eyes need a break from the Wall Of Text once in a while.
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Loz

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« Reply #86 on: June 17, 2020, 02:51:30 PM »
Quote
Would high-quality black-and-white art cost significantly less than color art of the same quality?

Usually, yes. It depends on the artist, obviously; but usually colour art is about twice the price for the same piece of black and white art from the same artist.
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Pat
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« Reply #87 on: June 17, 2020, 02:56:56 PM »
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1134675
I hate RPGs that have no art. My eyes need a break from the Wall Of Text once in a while.
Do you feel the same when reading novels?

oggsmash

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« Reply #88 on: June 17, 2020, 03:08:14 PM »
Quote from: Pat;1134679
Do you feel the same when reading novels?

  Rpg books do not read anything like novels.  They are more like text books.  Or Encyclopedias, or Books about Dinosaurs.

WillInNewHaven

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Owen KC Stephens' Tabletop RPG Truths
« Reply #89 on: June 17, 2020, 03:12:54 PM »
Quote from: Spinachcat;1134316
Writing is a hobby for most "professional" authors. The money in RPGs isn't worse than in fiction. I've known a dozen authors (some with bestsellers) who never quit their day job.  

"Doing what you love" only works for a fraction of the people who try it. For the majority, turning their Fun into Work, ruins their Fun. Only a minority seem to master the concepts of "Show" and "Business" and manage to keep their enjoyment of their fun turned work.


C.J. Carella was fairly prominent in gaming and started writing novels, "in order to make a living." He seems to be doing OK. His newest novel was released this week.
He hasn't stopped gaming. In fact, he is running a game for us right now and will play in my campaign tomorrow.