Quote from: VisionStorm;1134408There wasn't. This huge-assed hardbound "adventure path" thing is a new trend that I'm still trying to figure out where da fauq it comes from, cuz adventures never used to sell this well. Adventure modules were always a loss leader, as far as I'm aware. I've never even ran one in my life and the only times I've bought one was when they included stuff that expanded on a setting.

It's only been these past few years during the 5e era that official looking hardbound monstrosities of adventures have become a thing people seem to like for some unfathomable reason. I think it's tied to a post 9/11 cultural shift where people now want to be told by some established higher authority what to do, rather than think for themselves or do their own thing. So they see a gigantic official tome of adventures direct from WotC telling them what to play and cream themselves.

I've also heard some speculate that these appeal to people who don't really play the game, and see RPGs as "storytelling games". So they like the idea of "adventures" that are basically like an extended story.

The trend started with Paizo, during PF1. 4e ignored the adventures, while Pathfinder focused on them, and Pathfinder won the war handily even with one hand tied behind their backs (for a variety of reasons). Still to this day, most of Pathfinder's revenue comes from adventures, mostly subscription adventures which are linked together for a huge number of levels, just like these big 5e adventure books.

Quote from: VisionStorm;1134408There wasn't.

Which I guess is the whole point about survey teams.

QuoteThis huge-assed hardbound "adventure path" thing is a new trend that I'm still trying to figure out where da fauq it comes from, cuz adventures never used to sell this well. Adventure modules were always a loss leader, as far as I'm aware. I've never even ran one in my life and the only times I've bought one was when they included stuff that expanded on a setting.

Maybe that was why it took a while to stumble on to the secret sauce.

Quote from: shuddemell;1134411The pandering occurs because most of the people that enter the field are hard leftists and are ideologically driven to pander to their own viewpoints.

Or...20-somethings and millennials tend to be leftists and also be the ones with the disposable cash to buy all this crap? Meanwhile based on this thread the old crowd are a bunch of cheap broke bastards who think $60 for a core RPG is overpriced and probably think a movie for a family of four is a crazy expense (it's $54 out here minimum for a new movie, plus easily another $25 for popcorn and drinks...four TWO HOURS of entertainment, not including any parking fee).

Quote from: Mistwell;1134481Or...20-somethings and millennials tend to be leftists and also be the ones with the disposable cash to buy all this crap? Meanwhile based on this thread the old crowd are a bunch of cheap broke bastards who think $60 for a core RPG is overpriced and probably think a movie for a family of four is a crazy expense (it's $54 out here minimum for a new movie, plus easily another $25 for popcorn and drinks...four TWO HOURS of entertainment, not including any parking fee).

   No, 60 is not overpriced that I saw anyone say, and certainly not me.  I said double that is over priced.  Given you buy everything from amazon, cheap bastard is insanely funny.  Do you just make stuff up?

Quote from: Pat;1134448You should edit in some quote blocks, and attribute them to Owen KC Stephens, so it's clear that's not your writing.

So far nobody has missed the context or understood that they are not my points, including you.

Quote from: Mistwell;1134481Or...20-somethings and millennials tend to be leftists and also be the ones with the disposable cash to buy all this crap? Meanwhile based on this thread the old crowd are a bunch of cheap broke bastards who think $60 for a core RPG is overpriced and probably think a movie for a family of four is a crazy expense (it's $54 out here minimum for a new movie, plus easily another $25 for popcorn and drinks...four TWO HOURS of entertainment, not including any parking fee).

Not true in my case at least. I spend far more on this hobby at my age than I could ever afford to when I started, and I got far more value out of what I spent when young than I do now. Then again I never complained about a $60 book, unless it turned out to be bad, and at that point I would complain about spending anything on it.. I am also dubious that 20 somethings are the ones with the bulk of the excess disposable income.

Yeah, $120 seems pretty expensive for a normal RPG book.  That is $186 in NZD and I am assuming does not include shipping which would push it over $200.

Quote from: oggsmash;1134482No, 60 is not overpriced that I saw anyone say, and certainly not me.  I said double that is over priced.  Given you buy everything from amazon, cheap bastard is insanely funny.  Do you just make stuff up?

If $60 is the current average (you agreed to that before, right?) and couple people in this thread said the current books are overpriced, was it really hard to connect the dots on that analysis? Did I really need to spell those two things out for you and then explain a connection? Or did you miss the people who said current books are overpriced in this thread (which is not you)?

Here, I will spoon-feed the conversation to you:

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1134287yes they are overpriced, because they inflate the page count and the fluff and I don't need all that art.

Quote from: Omega;1134346I disagree with it as well and I worked in publishing.

But.

The problem is not that the books are overprice. They are overpriced usually for a reason. A BAD one.

That being the damn push for colour art and usually lots of it and the mania that this actually sells the book. Not the game. Kill this fad off and book prices would drop. But as long as publishers keep believing this lie then the books are going to cost alot more.

And none of this covers publishers just being greedy and jacking the price because they think they can.

The other problem as was noted earlier by someone is... padding. Books are being padded with oft useless text just to up the word count because designers want to be payed per word not for the work in whole. And the more they push for this and get it the more bloated these books will be. As noted in other threads. A recurring problem with WOTC books for 5e is that they spend alot of time saying very little.

And also (though this one is a much more minor comment as he is saying they are both under and overpriced depending on the consumer type):

Quote from: Spinachcat;1134316RPG books are actually way OVERPRICED...unless you play the game. As the majority of game books are never used as games, but just toilet reading, the authors should be thankful there is an audience willing to pay $60 to read 300 pages instead of $10 paperback or $25 hardback.

So now you've seen some people say they're overpriced. Caught up?

Quote from: Shasarak;1134504Yeah, $120 seems pretty expensive for a normal RPG book.  That is $186 in NZD and I am assuming does not include shipping which would push it over $200.

Living in New Zealand must be hard on the pocketbook for RPGs. Both for the direct money, and the shipping charges.

Quote from: Mistwell;1134478The trend started with Paizo, during PF1. 4e ignored the adventures, while Pathfinder focused on them, and Pathfinder won the war handily even with one hand tied behind their backs (for a variety of reasons). Still to this day, most of Pathfinder's revenue comes from adventures, mostly subscription adventures which are linked together for a huge number of levels, just like these big 5e adventure books.

Quote from: Shasarak;1134479

Quote from: VisionStorm;1134408There wasn't. This huge-assed hardbound "adventure path" thing is a new trend that I'm still trying to figure out where da fauq it comes from, cuz adventures never used to sell this well. Adventure modules were always a loss leader, as far as I'm aware. I've never even ran one in my life and the only times I've bought one was when they included stuff that expanded on a setting.

Maybe that was why it took a while to stumble on to the secret sauce.

*reads up on Pathfinder Adventure Paths*

Ahh, that helps explain why they sell better. Though, I still find it weird that people would be lining up to buy snippets of game world content baked into sequential modules, rather than buy campaign supplements and expansions directly. And 4e/Pathfinder was also post-9/11, so there might still be something to my tinfoil theory.

But maybe a setting expansion/adventure matchup works better as a product, since setting expansions alone weren't that hot during TSR era D&D either.

Quote from: Shasarak;1134479Which I guess is the whole point about survey teams.

I guess it depends on what they're surveying. The old adventure modules really didn't sell that much and adventure paths follow a different, more in-depth approach that seems to have made "adventures" more marketable. They're essentially a different product even if they deal with the same type of topic. In a way old adventure modules were more like samplers, while adventure paths are a more refined and complete product. And who wants to throw their money at some sampler?

So by way of context, I reckon the AD&D players handbook, when it came out in 1978, cost the equivalent of $40 in 2020 dollars: a perfect-bound hardback with full colour boards and b&w interior, considered an extremely high end gaming product at the time. The Empire of the Petal Throne boxed game, also high production values for it's time (not so much today), cost the equivalent of $125 in 2020 dollars if purchased in 1978.

Quote from: VisionStorm;1134513*reads up on Pathfinder Adventure Paths*

Ahh, that helps explain why they sell better. Though, I still find it weird that people would be lining up to buy snippets of game world content baked into sequential modules, rather than buy campaign supplements and expansions directly. And 4e/Pathfinder was also post-9/11, so there might still be something to my tinfoil theory.

But maybe a setting expansion/adventure matchup works better as a product, since setting expansions alone weren't that hot during TSR era D&D either.

Paizo does not just do adventure paths, they also have plenty of setting expansion books, and extra class books, and extra race books and plushy goblins and flip mats and miniatures and pawns and bestiaries and other merch.

Quote from: jeff37923;1134485So far nobody has missed the context or understood that they are not my points, including you.

They're still misattributed, and they make your post harder to parse than necessary. But do what you will; it was just a recommendation.

Quote from: Zirunel;1134516So by way of context, I reckon the AD&D players handbook, when it came out in 1978, cost the equivalent of $40 in 2020 dollars: a perfect-bound hardback with full colour boards and b&w interior, considered an extremely high end gaming product at the time.

I think my copy was priced at $12, which puts it closer to $50 (I used 2019, to avoid any COVID-related weirdness). Which is probably a decent average for the 1e PH, MM, and DMG (stagflation added up quickly over the last years of the 1970s, despite the higher nominal price for the latter). And it's not perfect bound, which is a cheap form of binding. The early TSR books were smyth-sewn, which is a much more durable binding, and is why those books have a reputation for being indestructible. There also weren't any colored boards, just colored end papers in some of the early printings. But while they were black and white and mostly text (except the MM), those books were built to last.

I'm happy being a cheap bastard. It goes well with my big nose and love of latkes, bagels and knishes! :eek:

Everyone values their disposable income differently. Since I can create RPG settings easily, I don't value splatbooks. Why learn their setting when I could write my own and have fun doing it? I also don't value new things, so I'd rather pay half for used. Yes, I'm a terrible consumer.

And I'm all about getting a great deal so paying retail is painful. The only exception regarding hobby stuff is Kickstarter where I know I am helping a hobbyist get their dream produced. I should feel the same way about DriveThruRPG stuff, but I rarely do so I'm doubly cheap about PDFs.

Quote from: Shasarak;1134334First off, Owen is one of my favourite designers.

His name didn't ring a bell for me. Which of Owen's games have you played the most?

Quote from: SHARK;1134337He has created a lot of very good stuff through the years.

Same with you. Which of Owen's games have you played the most?

Quote from: Mistwell;1134348WOTC did pretty extensive surveying on the topic and did find it was important to their customers.

Was this survey published online?

Do we know the breakdown between actual players vs. non-playing customers?

Here's my problem with believing that art sells games. Why doesn't the lack of art affect sales of fiction novels? If people need pretty pictures and glossy full color pages to enjoy a setting, you would think graphic novels would dominate over paperback novels. YA lit in paperback are huge sellers and  they have nothing but a cover picture.

And the full color art demand doesn't fit either considering the sales of manga which is not just black and white, but mostly printed on rough pages of ground up bark. Zero gloss, zero color, high sales...to the same demographic as young gamers.

To me, it seems that many people are buying RPG art books with little pretense about actually ever playing the game.

Quote from: S'mon;1134369The first truth: No one owes you a living.

Damn S'mon! No wonder people think we're an alt-right extremist forum!