Writing is a hobby for most "professional" authors. The money in RPGs isn't worse than in fiction. I've known a dozen authors (some with bestsellers) who never quit their day job.  

"Doing what you love" only works for a fraction of the people who try it. For the majority, turning their Fun into Work, ruins their Fun. Only a minority seem to master the concepts of "Show" and "Business" and manage to keep their enjoyment of their fun turned work.

As for the "toxic fans", there are PLENTY of "toxic designers" out there.

RPG books are actually way OVERPRICED...unless you play the game. As the majority of game books are never used as games, but just toilet reading, the authors should be thankful there is an audience willing to pay $60 to read 300 pages instead of $10 paperback or $25 hardback.

RPGs (and other games) only become cheap over time of actual play. That's when the real ROI is achieved.

Quote from: oggsmash;1134280Well, he did say editors are the real heros of writing.  I guess he wanted to prove it.

LOL. That's painfully funny.

I agree that RPG books are largely under-priced, at least compared to other forms of entertainment. The use and enjoyment I get out of the ones I actually end up playing is worth far more than what I spend on them.
I'm also more than happy to pay for sweet artwork in "padded-out RPG manuals". I usually don't want a spartanly-designed book of text. Art helps bring the game to life in my imagination in a way that I find very satisfying indeed. That being said, bad art, or art that I dislike, detracts from my enjoyment, so perhaps it is safer to just leave it out as games like Burning Wheel largely do.

Every day some Paizo or WOTC "RPG Professional" opens their mouth; I find myself less interested in their over priced books and more concerned with the price of minis, terrain, or one of those fancy game tables only "rich players" get to afford.

I have enough rules for a lifetime at this point. And I can write my own rules without bitching about the person playing them.

Quote from: MonsterSlayer;1134331Every day some Paizo or WOTC "RPG Professional" opens their mouth; I find myself less interested in their over priced books and more concerned with the price of minis, terrain, or one of those fancy game tables only "rich players" get to afford.

I have enough rules for a lifetime at this point. And I can write my own rules without bitching about the person playing them.

I could probably use an editor though. Luckily, I married an English teacher.

First off, Owen is one of my favourite designers.

That being said, creative workers are inherently poorly paid for their work no matter what area of their creativity, and many of his observations can be explained by the Pareto distribution which roughly translates to 20% of producers getting 80% of the money.

Quote from: Shasarak;1134334First off, Owen is one of my favourite designers.

That being said, creative workers are inherently poorly paid for their work no matter what area of their creativity, and many of his observations can be explained by the Pareto distribution which roughly translates to 20% of producers getting 80% of the money.

Greetings!

Very good observation, Shasarak! I agree about Owen as well as a game designer and writer. He has created a lot of very good stuff through the years.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: jeff37923;1134289I copy and pasted them here for people to see what you were babbling about.

I'm impolite. And I don't like adding clicks to ENWorld.

Thanks for the chance to read what this virtue signaling drivel was about without having to jump off this site to give clicks to ENWorld.

Quote from: oggsmash;1134294Amazon is not retail, and Amazon uses leverage on volume to destroy brick and mortar, so their price is not relevant to what I buy.  I have several good FLGS close to where I live, and if they do not have the book I order it from them, or if it is an impulse buy I buy it from the company publishing it.   The thing you can say now is, Oh you are right, some RPGs do retail for 60 bucks.

Hey, but why do that from the get-go when you can point out discounted prices from an e-commerce tech giant that likes to push their weight around to destroy their competition and pretend those discounted prices are the actual retail value?

Quote from: Mistwell;1134271"Tabletop RPG books are not overpriced. They are specialty technical creative writing social interaction manuals. At double the current prices, they would not be overpriced. This is why most TTRPG creators leave the industry. Along with constant fan harassment."

Why do you disagree with that?

I disagree with it as well and I worked in publishing.

But.

The problem is not that the books are overprice. They are overpriced usually for a reason. A BAD one.

That being the damn push for colour art and usually lots of it and the mania that this actually sells the book. Not the game. Kill this fad off and book prices would drop. But as long as publishers keep believing this lie then the books are going to cost alot more.

And none of this covers publishers just being greedy and jacking the price because they think they can.

The other problem as was noted earlier by someone is... padding. Books are being padded with oft useless text just to up the word count because designers want to be payed per word not for the work in whole. And the more they push for this and get it the more bloated these books will be. As noted in other threads. A recurring problem with WOTC books for 5e is that they spend alot of time saying very little.

Quote from: Omega;1134346I disagree with it as well and I worked in publishing.

But.

The problem is not that the books are overprice. They are overpriced usually for a reason. A BAD one.

That being the damn push for colour art and usually lots of it and the mania that this actually sells the book. Not the game. Kill this fad off and book prices would drop. But as long as publishers keep believing this lie then the books are going to cost alot more.

And none of this covers publishers just being greedy and jacking the price because they think they can.

The other problem as was noted earlier by someone is... padding. Books are being padded with oft useless text just to up the word count because designers want to be payed per word not for the work in whole. And the more they push for this and get it the more bloated these books will be. As noted in other threads. A recurring problem with WOTC books for 5e is that they spend alot of time saying very little.

No. Thank you. Color art and descriptions which go beyond the mechanics are there because people want it to be there. Because there is more to the game than just mechanics.The expansive color art and descriptions is what brings the setting alive for the reader.

WOTC did pretty extensive surveying on the topic and did find it was important to their customers.

Quote from: Mistwell;1134348WOTC did pretty extensive surveying on the topic and did find it was important to their customers.

Was that the same survey team that told WotC everybody would love the changes in D&D 4E?

For a lot of  people, visual images are necessary for them to visualize the setting.  It's easier if they've seen a movie or TV show with the characters.  Personally books have gotten too expensive and it makes it harder to sell them but there is a psychological state where if they won't pay $50 they won't pay $5.  That's why I suspect downloading isn't quite the sales issue people in the industry think it is.  They aren't really losing sales to people who wouldn't have bought the book anyhow.

I also suspect that one of the draws of full colour books for publishers is that they are harder to scan, make larger files, more expensive to print and so forth.  Even back in the day, photocopying books was pretty common.  Heck, at one of my early Warhammer 40000 games back in the Rogue Trader days I played a guy who had copied out the rules by hand to avoid buying the book.

People have this price point in their head that varies.  $100 for example, is a very serious break point in most consumer's thinking.  But for some people that break point is $20.  I personally have trouble paying more than $5 for a miniature.  I know that a figure that was $1.00 back when I was twelve is probably $4.00 now when adjusted for inflation but in my mind, plastic should be cheaper than metal.  It's just psychology, I'm getting to where I understand why old people are cranky about prices I guess.

Quote from: jeff37923;1134363Was that the same survey team that told WotC everybody would love the changes in D&D 4E?

Was that the same survey team that told WotC that there was no money in writing adventures?

RPG writing is (partly) a form of artistic expression. It's your imagination "made real" into a game. Thing is, the artist never, ever decides how much people will pay for their art. In the past, decent artists would be given commissions to paint a portrait or make a statue - these days we have commissions to make a splat-book or module. But the vast majority of freelancers can only be paid what the market will bear. There is no "right" to a decent wage if you're an artist. You can try unionising or going on strike, but I doubt you'll get very far!
   
So no, RPGs are not inherently under or overpriced. How much would a previously-unseen AD&D Gygax module retail for? Whatever the market would bear. That might be $5 or $50 or even $500 if they limited the print run. But there is no guaranteed market out there for anyone's RPG work, however good it might be.

The first truth: No one owes you a living.

Quote from: S'mon;1134369The first truth: No one owes you a living.

Nobody besides your employer, anyway. I mean, if your job isn't paying you a living wage, why work for them, right?