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Author Topic: Our 'killer GM'  (Read 5542 times)

Simlasa

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Our 'killer GM'
« on: February 06, 2014, 02:30:33 AM »
At tonight's Pathfinder game our GM got called away for a lengthy phone call and we players got to talking...
One guy started telling us newer players, in hushed tones, how our GM is a 'quintessential killer GM'... 'no matter what you try he'll find a way to screw you with it'.
This player happens to be the whiniest player at the table... the one most likely to use OOC knowledge or throw a rules lawyerish tantrum. He's the most into 'optimization' and got on my case for not using charisma as a 'dump stat' and for taking the 'wrong' skills.

His complaints about the GM just haven't been my experience so far... not at all... and I said as much. I might describe him as 'deadly but fair'... meaning that if we do dumb things there WILL be consequences... but really, I don't have the mindset that the GM is our adversary and the sessions I've been at haven't played that way.
He told us at the start that it's a sandbox and that not everything is balanced to our power level. The dangerous stuff is out there, so beware. Fine by me!
We've had a few TPKs and I've laughed about it, but I've played with a really bad GM or two and this guy is NOT one of them. If anything I think he's one of the better GMs I've played under in quite a while. (I also get the impression that the other players and I have very different ideas about what 'sandbox' implies).

The whole episode just reinforced my thinking that a lot of these stories of 'killer GMs' are just whiny bullshit from players who can't stand being told 'No!'
« Last Edit: February 06, 2014, 02:32:54 AM by Simlasa »

Harl Quinn

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Our 'killer GM'
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2014, 03:16:31 AM »
That's pretty much been my experience. I had to talk down a problem player twice in a D6 Star Wars campaign I ran years ago. The first time was when his character got stunned repeatedly. He whined that GM X, who was a player in my campaign, ruled in the past that multiple stun blasts can kill. It took me the better part of ten minutes trying to get through to him that I wasn't GM X and I didn't have that house rule...

The other tantrum came when I overruled his suggestion to build "lightclaws" and a weapon similar to the glaive in Krull. In the end, I talked him down from that ledge as well... Looking back, I should have just let him jump and watched as he ragequit my game...

But, hindsight's always 20/20...


Later!

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jibbajibba

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« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2014, 04:00:22 AM »
Depends what you mean by killer DM though.

I have met Railroady DMs who will threaten players with death if they step outside the bounds of the railroad, I have met DMs, usually of a similar stripe who make every bouncer or bar tender in a 10th dan bullet proof ubermensch, because they wanted the players to all be nice good guys although they never stated that explicitly, I have met DMs that interpret some rules very differently and never make that explicit until its too late, so an arrow trap that has save vs death as opposed to you getting hit with an arrow which at 6th level can have a major impact on how you approach the thing.

So I don't think its all whiney players.

Now I have to admit there might be a negative feedback loop here. I have been guilty in my younger days of driving away players that came across as whiney, self obsessed munchkins. I have occasionally employed rules in detail that I woudl normally handwave due to annoyance to rid myself of these guys, emcumbrance, rations, head attacks all being the sort of thing I am talking about. This has been rare becuase I have rarely played through clubs and have most often played with just my mates and it has been 20 years or so but mea culpa.
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ggroy

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« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2014, 05:50:14 AM »
Quote from: Simlasa;729602
The whole episode just reinforced my thinking that a lot of these stories of 'killer GMs' are just whiny bullshit from players who can't stand being told 'No!'


Do these same whiny players also play video games using cheat codes and/or "god mode"?

Shipyard Locked

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« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2014, 06:28:50 AM »
Quote from: ggroy;729613
Do these same whiny players also play video games using cheat codes and/or "god mode"?


Typically no, that's for people who just want to look at the game's design without wasting time and effort. Because the whiners can't browbeat the computer they either accept the challenge put before them or write a scathing review. Cheat codes is a bridge too far for their cognitive dissonance to handle.

Dogbert

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Our 'killer GM'
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2014, 06:48:41 AM »
Some players are just too averse to character death.

There´s nothing wrong with that, but then players who abhor death shouldn´t play games where PC death is a very real possibility. There are plenty of non-trad games where death is rare (or may not even exist).

And then there´s the issue of gaming culture.

At a table where I used to play, I was known as a "killer GM" and none of the PCs died even once, all I did was making the PCs face the consequences of their actions... still, isn´t that what ALL GMs DO? Granted, not all GMs make players "pay" for the same mistakes, because just as we (GMs) reward the playstyles we like most, by the same token, we punish those styles that displease us (once all is said and done, all GMs are meritocrats, and whoever says otherwise is lying). One table´s "clever tactician" is another table´s "sissified wuss" just like one table´s "real man" is another table´s roadkill. It all depends on each table´s gaming culture.

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« Last Edit: February 06, 2014, 06:53:41 AM by Dogbert »
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One Horse Town

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Our 'killer GM'
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2014, 07:14:48 AM »
Welcome Dogbert!

Nexus

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« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2014, 08:03:03 AM »
Funny some what on topic bit posted elsewhere (not mind, credit to the OP) that I ran across looking for info on Ice-T's D and D audiobook

Quote from: Blacky the Blackball;17607325
Killer DM, yeah

I got my DMG out
I got my dungeon out
I got my dee-twenty out
This shits gone South

I got my figures dusted off
I got my traps going off
I'm 'bout to bust some shots off
I'm 'bout to dust some PCs off

I'm a killer DM, better you than me
Killer DM, fuck player agency
Killer DM, I know your player's grieving
(Fuck 'em)
Killer DM, but tonight we get even, ha ha

I'm gonna kill you all
This ain't no Monty Haul
I got this +3 knife
And your character looks just right

My adrenalines pumpin'
I got my dice all bumpin'
I'm 'bout to kill me somethin'
The PCs won't get nuthin'

I'm a killer DM, better you than me
Killer DM, fuck player agency
Killer DM, I know your player's grieving
(Fuck 'em)
Killer DM, but tonight we get even, yeah

Die, die, die PC, die

Fuck the PCs
Fuck the PCs
Fuck the PCs
Fuck the PCs

Fuck the PCs
Fuck the PCs
Fuck the PCs
Fuck the PCs, yeah

I'm a killer DM, better you than me
Killer DM, fuck player agency
Killer DM, I know your player's grieving
(Fuck 'em)
Killer DM, but tonight we get even, ha ha ha ha, yeah

Fuck the PCs
Fuck the PCs
Fuck the PCs
Fuck the PCs

Fuck the PCs
Fuck the PCs
Fuck the PCs
Fuck the PCs, break it down

Fuck the PCs, yeah
Fuck the PCs, for Acererak
Fuck the PCs, for Tiamat
Fuck the PCs, for my dead monsters

Fuck the PCs, for your freedom
Fuck the PCs, don't be a pussy
Fuck the PCs, have some muthafuckin' courage
Fuck the PCs, sing along

Killer DM
Killer DM
Killer DM
Killer DM

Killer DM, whaddyou wanna be when you grow up?
Killer DM, good choice
Killer DM, I'm a muthafuckin'
Killer DM

I'm a killer DM, better you than me
Killer DM, fuck player agency
Killer DM, I know your player's grieving
(Fuck 'em)
Killer DM, but tonight we get even
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Shawn Driscoll

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Our 'killer GM'
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2014, 08:57:03 AM »
Why is that player in the game?

Bill

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« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2014, 09:25:24 AM »
Quote from: Simlasa;729602
At tonight's Pathfinder game our GM got called away for a lengthy phone call and we players got to talking...
One guy started telling us newer players, in hushed tones, how our GM is a 'quintessential killer GM'... 'no matter what you try he'll find a way to screw you with it'.
This player happens to be the whiniest player at the table... the one most likely to use OOC knowledge or throw a rules lawyerish tantrum. He's the most into 'optimization' and got on my case for not using charisma as a 'dump stat' and for taking the 'wrong' skills.

His complaints about the GM just haven't been my experience so far... not at all... and I said as much. I might describe him as 'deadly but fair'... meaning that if we do dumb things there WILL be consequences... but really, I don't have the mindset that the GM is our adversary and the sessions I've been at haven't played that way.
He told us at the start that it's a sandbox and that not everything is balanced to our power level. The dangerous stuff is out there, so beware. Fine by me!
We've had a few TPKs and I've laughed about it, but I've played with a really bad GM or two and this guy is NOT one of them. If anything I think he's one of the better GMs I've played under in quite a while. (I also get the impression that the other players and I have very different ideas about what 'sandbox' implies).

The whole episode just reinforced my thinking that a lot of these stories of 'killer GMs' are just whiny bullshit from players who can't stand being told 'No!'


My experience is similar. A small number of players hate for even the tiniest bad things to happen to their character, and 'blame' the gm.

I can think of two 'ruthless but fair' gm's I have played with, but I can't think of any 'ruthless and unfair' gm's. Presumably they are also 'Bad' gm's, and bad gm's lose their players.

Bill

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Our 'killer GM'
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2014, 09:32:35 AM »
Quote from: Dogbert;729619
Some players are just too averse to character death.

There´s nothing wrong with that, but then players who abhor death shouldn´t play games where PC death is a very real possibility. There are plenty of non-trad games where death is rare (or may not even exist).

And then there´s the issue of gaming culture.

At a table where I used to play, I was known as a "killer GM" and none of the PCs died even once, all I did was making the PCs face the consequences of their actions... still, isn´t that what ALL GMs DO? Granted, not all GMs make players "pay" for the same mistakes, because just as we (GMs) reward the playstyles we like most, by the same token, we punish those styles that displease us (once all is said and done, all GMs are meritocrats, and whoever says otherwise is lying). One table´s "clever tactician" is another table´s "sissified wuss" just like one table´s "real man" is another table´s roadkill. It all depends on each table´s gaming culture.

P.D: Hello, RPGsite.


I have some sympathy for character death, but I also have seen a few players that are averse to being scratched.

Like a Dwarven warrior that was  a bucket of hp and high AC running from battle because he took a few points of damage. This was the player, not roleplay of a cowardly warrior.

You make an interesting point that some people may interpret realistic results for ones actions as 'mean gm'

ggroy

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Our 'killer GM'
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2014, 09:48:44 AM »
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;729615
Because the whiners can't browbeat the computer they either accept the challenge put before them or write a scathing review.

Wonder how often gaming companies issue software patches to correct video games that are deemed "too hard" or "too easy", and how much fallout occurs subsequently from the whiners.

pspahn

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« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2014, 11:10:40 AM »
Quote from: Simlasa;729602
At tonight's Pathfinder game our GM got called away for a lengthy phone call and we players got to talking...
One guy started telling us newer players, in hushed tones, how our GM is a 'quintessential killer GM'... 'no matter what you try he'll find a way to screw you with it'.
This player happens to be the whiniest player at the table... the one most likely to use OOC knowledge or throw a rules lawyerish tantrum. He's the most into 'optimization' and got on my case for not using charisma as a 'dump stat' and for taking the 'wrong' skills.

His complaints about the GM just haven't been my experience so far... not at all... and I said as much. I might describe him as 'deadly but fair'... meaning that if we do dumb things there WILL be consequences... but really, I don't have the mindset that the GM is our adversary and the sessions I've been at haven't played that way.
He told us at the start that it's a sandbox and that not everything is balanced to our power level. The dangerous stuff is out there, so beware. Fine by me!
We've had a few TPKs and I've laughed about it, but I've played with a really bad GM or two and this guy is NOT one of them. If anything I think he's one of the better GMs I've played under in quite a while. (I also get the impression that the other players and I have very different ideas about what 'sandbox' implies).

The whole episode just reinforced my thinking that a lot of these stories of 'killer GMs' are just whiny bullshit from players who can't stand being told 'No!'


Looking back, the only time I felt like I was an adversary GM was when running the dreaded Vampire the Masquerade. I almost feel like the game is built for that, with almost everything the characters do having the potential to be part of some far reaching antediluvian plot. Campaign last for over a year, but there was so much backstabbing, distrust, and inter-party dissent that two of the guys still hold grudges and won't game together.
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Brad

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Our 'killer GM'
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2014, 11:45:37 AM »
Quote from: Simlasa;729602
The whole episode just reinforced my thinking that a lot of these stories of 'killer GMs' are just whiny bullshit from players who can't stand being told 'No!'


In my experience, I'd say that's probably true in about 95% of the cases. The only DM I've ever gamed with who "had it out for the players" was the one for a 3rd edition campaign I played back in grad school. He was very adversarial and didn't like it when the players figured out ways to "beat his monsters". He would also arbitrarily change rules whenever something annoyed him, but stick to extreme BtB rulings at all other times. The biggest gripe I had, and why I ended up quitting the game, was him directly fucking with my character. I had a bard and started spending a lot of skill points in languages. The DM didn't like that whatsoever (no idea why) and told me I had to instead spend more skill points for each language. I told him, BtB, bards got languages more cheaply because that's sort of their shtick. So he decided to randomly impose a ridiculous gold piece cost with learning a new language (2000 or something). He also didn't like my use of quick draw to immediately have access to weapons. Never could figure out that one...instead of saying, "I don't allow quick draw in my game", he just nerfed it to the point where it was entirely useless to me. And of course I couldn't retroactively pick another feat.

That sort of shit is not the same as being told no, it's just someone getting annoyed that you're "beating" his game.
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Benoist

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« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2014, 11:56:27 AM »
Quote from: Simlasa;729602
At tonight's Pathfinder game our GM got called away for a lengthy phone call and we players got to talking...
One guy started telling us newer players, in hushed tones, how our GM is a 'quintessential killer GM'... 'no matter what you try he'll find a way to screw you with it'.
This player happens to be the whiniest player at the table... the one most likely to use OOC knowledge or throw a rules lawyerish tantrum. He's the most into 'optimization' and got on my case for not using charisma as a 'dump stat' and for taking the 'wrong' skills.

His complaints about the GM just haven't been my experience so far... not at all... and I said as much. I might describe him as 'deadly but fair'... meaning that if we do dumb things there WILL be consequences... but really, I don't have the mindset that the GM is our adversary and the sessions I've been at haven't played that way.
He told us at the start that it's a sandbox and that not everything is balanced to our power level. The dangerous stuff is out there, so beware. Fine by me!
We've had a few TPKs and I've laughed about it, but I've played with a really bad GM or two and this guy is NOT one of them. If anything I think he's one of the better GMs I've played under in quite a while. (I also get the impression that the other players and I have very different ideas about what 'sandbox' implies).

The whole episode just reinforced my thinking that a lot of these stories of 'killer GMs' are just whiny bullshit from players who can't stand being told 'No!'
Cool beans. I'm sure quite a few of the popular "killer DM" stories are in fact accounts of failed communication or indeed completely one-sided arguments to the effect of "I couldn't get what I want so of course the DM sucks".

There are actually terrible DMs out there, but they aren't nearly as common as the stories on the internet would have us believe. Hence the really dumb move IMO to "fix" the games via their rules and set the bar at the lowest common denominator of game design thinking these types of people are actually common place. That's the internet echo chamber at work right here.