This is a site for discussing roleplaying games. Have fun doing so, but there is one major rule: do not discuss political issues that aren't directly and uniquely related to the subject of the thread and about gaming. While this site is dedicated to free speech, the following will not be tolerated: devolving a thread into unrelated political discussion, sockpuppeting (using multiple and/or bogus accounts), disrupting topics without contributing to them, and posting images that could get someone fired in the workplace (an external link is OK, but clearly mark it as Not Safe For Work, or NSFW). If you receive a warning, please take it seriously and either move on to another topic or steer the discussion back to its original RPG-related theme.

Author Topic: OSR Skills...Proficiencies or Whatever...  (Read 4699 times)

Arkansan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1282
OSR Skills...Proficiencies or Whatever...
« Reply #15 on: April 25, 2020, 11:16:25 PM »
Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;1127895
I think the aversion to skills is mostly due to years of play experience, at this point.

As for the thief, with hindsight, I think the thief could've been better implemented by using a slightly different approach, and referring to the thief skills as class-specific "special abilities" rather than "skills."

Total agreement that the original thief could have been handled better. As you said the X in 6 mechanic is well established in the rules for exactly such situations. Off the top of my head the only other place I recall percentages are for determining monsters and treasure and the Constitution based survival tables.

Out of curiosity do we have any idea why the percentile skill system was used? It's rather fiddly and seems to clash with the rest of the game.

VisionStorm

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2184
OSR Skills...Proficiencies or Whatever...
« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2020, 02:03:18 AM »
Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1127843
The other way I can see it working is grafting a class system onto a skill system, instead of the usual other way around.  That is, in such a system, skills are common, and everyone is a skill's character for the basics.  Then they may or may not take one or more classes as bundles of special abilities.  In such a system, "fighters" (or more likely something more specific) aren't necessarily more skilled at the basics of weapon.  They hit about as accurately and hard as anyone else that has developed those skills.  However, they've got some abilities that supplement weapon use so that they are more effective in a fight.


That's somewhat how Professions work in my system. They're ability packages that determine your starting abilities to speed up character creation and ensure each character is competent in at least some type of role or function. Beyond that you can build your character however you want. But professions may also provide additional bonuses to give you a certain edge, similar to the way races in D&D grant bonuses to your ability scores. Except profession bonuses may apply to skills or certain types of rolls.

Professions can also be setting-specific and I see them as a modular addition to the system, which may be beefed up depending on how important you want professions to be in the world. But the underlying mechanics of the system are basically skill-based, with professions and other Origins being a supplementary component to add flavor and facilitate character creation.

Philotomy Jurament

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1971
  • Prisoner 24601
OSR Skills...Proficiencies or Whatever...
« Reply #17 on: April 26, 2020, 03:01:54 AM »
Quote from: Arkansan;1127908
Out of curiosity do we have any idea why the percentile skill system was used? It's rather fiddly and seems to clash with the rest of the game.
It was an addition first made in a fanzine, and Gary noted "These rules have not been tested and should be treated accordingly." That was in May of 1974. Presumably it received more play and testing by the time it made it into the Greyhawk supplement. So read into that what you will.

Some more info here: https://playingattheworld.blogspot.com/2012/08/gygaxs-thief-addition-1974.html

FWIW, I actually like %-based skill systems, in general (I find it easy to think in terms of percentages). However, for the thief abilities it seems like a strange fit with the rest of D&D. That said, my main issue with the way thief abilities were handled isn't so much about the use of percentage dice (after all, any dice ultimately produce some form of percentage), but with the way the thief subsystem seems so divorced from the rest of the system's design. I don't think it's *terrible*, but I think it could've been better integrated.
The problem is not that power corrupts, but that the corruptible are irresistibly drawn to the pursuit of power. Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito.

Graytung

  • Newbie
  • *
  • G
  • Posts: 38
OSR Skills...Proficiencies or Whatever...
« Reply #18 on: April 26, 2020, 04:44:35 AM »
Broad or abstract skills in OSR games don't exist, this is because that type of skill falls under player skill. Ability checks cover niche situations where there should still be some chance of failure, so a roll is needed. I rarely use roll equal to under ability checks myself.

When OSR class skills are employed they apply in specific situations which relate to a specific circumstance in the game. Finding a trap anyone can do. Disarming it is something only the thief can do and only when the trap is located. If the thief succeeds, no one needs to worry about setting the trap off next time they walk past it.

The reason why specificity is important is not so the player knows how to use the skills, but instead the referee knows when a player needs to make the skill check. A referee doesn't have to wait for the thief to say "I attempt to disarm the trap." Instead, the referee says "Thief, do you try to disarm the trap?". Skills are coded into the game.This is important, because that thief player is still able to immerse themselves in the game without having to reference their skill list at all.

If you want to design a skill system in an OSR sci-fi setting, think first about the modes of play that will exist in the game. Thieves fall under the Exploration sub-system. Would an Engineer class be associated with some sort of sub-system that helps to provide knowledge by hacking cameras or computer systems? Does a Pilot class associate with the ability to fly/travel/control drones in a subsystem that centers around ship to ship combat or space travel?

If you are just going to make a massive skill list and let the players work out the best time to use them, that isn't OSR, not to me anyway. I'm not saying a large and broad skill list is a bad thing either. I love the d6 system.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2020, 04:57:40 AM by Graytung »

Spinachcat

  • Toxic SocioCat
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • S
  • Posts: 14805
OSR Skills...Proficiencies or Whatever...
« Reply #19 on: April 26, 2020, 05:30:31 AM »
Quote from: David Johansen;1127886
Mechanoid Invasion Book III was such a good system.

It's still IS a great system! It's the raw core of the Palladium system, and so easy to modify.

RPGPundit

  • Administrator - The Final Boss of Internet Shitlords
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 48855
    • http://therpgpundit.blogspot.com
OSR Skills...Proficiencies or Whatever...
« Reply #20 on: April 27, 2020, 11:16:20 PM »
My OSR skill system is very simple and D20 based. You get a D20+ skill bonus + ability score + miscellaneous against a difficulty level.
LION & DRAGON: Medieval-Authentic OSR Roleplaying is available now! You only THINK you've played 'medieval fantasy' until you play L&D.


My Blog:  http://therpgpundit.blogspot.com/
The most famous uruguayan gaming blog on the planet!

NEW!
Check out my short OSR supplements series; The RPGPundit Presents!


Dark Albion: The Rose War! The OSR fantasy setting of the history that inspired Shakespeare and Martin alike.
Also available in Variant Cover form!
Also, now with the CULTS OF CHAOS cult-generation sourcebook

ARROWS OF INDRA
Arrows of Indra: The Old-School Epic Indian RPG!
NOW AVAILABLE: AoI in print form

LORDS OF OLYMPUS
The new Diceless RPG of multiversal power, adventure and intrigue, now available.

Pat
BANNED

  • BANNED
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • ?
  • Posts: 5252
  • Rats do 0 damage
OSR Skills...Proficiencies or Whatever...
« Reply #21 on: April 28, 2020, 09:51:38 PM »
I like the system in Searchers of the Unknown. The combat system is 1d20 <= your level + your opponent's AC (descending), while the stunt system (sneaking, climbing, whatever) inverts that to 1d20 <= your level + your own AC. It looks a little different, but it is equivalent to the combat system in old school versions of D&D -- it just moves the terms around. But by switching to roll under, it allows the game to easily represent Conan wanting as much armor as possible when on the battlefield, but wearing nothing but a loincloth and oil when sneaking in to steal a gem from a sorcerer's tower. Doesn't have a defined skill list, it assumes the PCs are competent.

Aglondir

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • A
  • Posts: 1592
OSR Skills...Proficiencies or Whatever...
« Reply #22 on: April 30, 2020, 11:59:30 PM »
Quote from: Pat;1128193
I like the system in Searchers of the Unknown. The combat system is 1d20 <= your level + your opponent's AC (descending), while the stunt system (sneaking, climbing, whatever) inverts that to 1d20 <= your level + your own AC. It looks a little different, but it is equivalent to the combat system in old school versions of D&D -- it just moves the terms around. But by switching to roll under, it allows the game to easily represent Conan wanting as much armor as possible when on the battlefield, but wearing nothing but a loincloth and oil when sneaking in to steal a gem from a sorcerer's tower. Doesn't have a defined skill list, it assumes the PCs are competent.

That's a cool idea. Would this work for Roll-over:

1. Ascending AC
2. Attack roll = d20 + Level >= 10 + defender's AC
3. Stunt roll = d20 + Level >= 10 - your AC
« Last Edit: May 01, 2020, 12:01:13 AM by Aglondir »

Eric Diaz

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1115
    • http://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com.br/
OSR Skills...Proficiencies or Whatever...
« Reply #23 on: May 03, 2020, 05:39:11 PM »
My B/X homage Dark Fantasy Basic has about 10 skills... Including combat, thievery, spell-casting, athletics (climb etc.), lore...

TBH I've been reconsidering the whole idea of skills in D&d... AND classes. Maybe some backgrounds and "there is always a chance) would be enough if everyone is an adventurer.

Like this:

Quote from: Pat;1128193
I like the system in Searchers of the Unknown. The combat system is 1d20 <= your level + your opponent's AC (descending), while the stunt system (sneaking, climbing, whatever) inverts that to 1d20 <= your level + your own AC. It looks a little different, but it is equivalent to the combat system in old school versions of D&D -- it just moves the terms around. But by switching to roll under, it allows the game to easily represent Conan wanting as much armor as possible when on the battlefield, but wearing nothing but a loincloth and oil when sneaking in to steal a gem from a sorcerer's tower. Doesn't have a defined skill list, it assumes the PCs are competent.


Yeah, good point.
Chaos Factory Books  - Dark fantasy RPGs and more!

Methods & Madness - my  D&D 5e / Old School / Game design blog.

Jaeger

  • That someone better.
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1536
OSR Skills...Proficiencies or Whatever...
« Reply #24 on: May 05, 2020, 04:49:35 PM »
Quote from: arcanuum;1127836
Jaeger, that is exactly how I think I will do skills for my Post Apocalyptic OSR Game. That reminds me that I should really get back to that project.


Thanks! And your welcome.  To be honest I'm sure someone must have hit on this idea before, it is just merging two different systematic bits that are already in games. All PC's get a broad general "Skill" list and the ability to specialize without having to add more math.

No having to remember if you have a +1 or 2 in this or that - just grab the extra die.

To me it is a natural direction to take when you have advantage/disadvantage in a D&D game.

Playing 5e now, I feel that the ad/disad mechanic should have been implemented far more thoroughly through its core system than it is.
"The envious are not satisfied with equality; they secretly yearn for superiority and revenge."