When you use #OSR rules to modify #dnd for modern-setting play in a world resembling ours, do character classes even make sense?
#ttrpg

Quote from: RPGPundit on October 19, 2021, 02:06:08 AM
When you use #OSR rules to modify #dnd for modern-setting play in a world resembling ours, do character classes even make sense?
#ttrpg

Your solution sounds like a nice balance between traditional OSR concepts and skill based games like Call of Cthulhu.

The concept of gaining combat bonuses based on the number of combats you've survived is interesting, and does make sense. I mean what better way to learn than by not dying?

Quote from: Godsmonkey on October 19, 2021, 09:37:38 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on October 19, 2021, 02:06:08 AM
When you use #OSR rules to modify #dnd for modern-setting play in a world resembling ours, do character classes even make sense?
#ttrpg

Your solution sounds like a nice balance between traditional OSR concepts and skill based games like Call of Cthulhu.

The concept of gaining combat bonuses based on the number of combats you've survived is interesting, and does make sense. I mean what better way to learn than by not dying?

Yes. I'll note I was somewhat inspired by this after playing Aces & Eights.

A modern setting game with classes under OSR rules?

Not sure. I'd say have a starting kit of abilities ala Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead and just let the players develop as they go. Your "Class" is just who you were before it all went to shit, and it determines your equipment and starting skills. You might be just some guy who came to the shelter, maybe you're a meth-head in withdrawal, maybe you're a scientist who caused this mess, or maybe you're an expert martial artist.

But is that still OSR?

I'm too tired to come up with an answer.

Quote from: PsyXypher on November 11, 2021, 12:38:49 AM
A modern setting game with classes under OSR rules?

Not sure. I'd say have a starting kit of abilities ala Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead and just let the players develop as they go. Your "Class" is just who you were before it all went to shit, and it determines your equipment and starting skills. You might be just some guy who came to the shelter, maybe you're a meth-head in withdrawal, maybe you're a scientist who caused this mess, or maybe you're an expert martial artist.

But is that still OSR?

I'm too tired to come up with an answer.

Isn't that what classes are? The only difference I see is allowing everybody access to the same skills. So AD&D2e but removing the class skill restrictions.

So you learn new skills by trying to do stuff/studying/practice. "I try to ride the horse (Insert die roll here)", "okay you ride it, you have to go slower than everybody else so you find yourself often last in the group."

After this you have zero in your modifier for riding horses, making it easier next time (or maybe +1?)

After enough times of you riding a horse you rise your modifier to +2 (or take into account critical success).

Apply this for any skill you allowed in the game.

Of course in a modern setting some skills can't be learned by just trying: "Hacking" a computer, I would argue can't be learned unless you have spent some time studying how to do so or have some previous "computer skill".

So you change the class restricctions to attribute restrictions + type of skill restrictions.

This isn't really that different from RAW AD&D2e

Just started so I may say more, but...the Silk Road Crusades game sounds awesome. I'm sold on it already. For as much shit as the lefties give you, you make fun games.

Quote from: RPGPundit on October 19, 2021, 02:06:08 AM
When you use #OSR rules to modify #dnd for modern-setting play in a world resembling ours, do character classes even make sense?
#ttrpg

Answering the text instead of the video, 'cause I don't have time to sit through a video, the answer is yes.  Classes are good analogues to profession.  Being a doctor, engineer, soldier, detective, athlete, martial artist, professional driver, and so on give a pretty consistent skill set for each and each requires a time investment that precludes extensive crosstraining.  Sounds like a good fit to classes to me.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 11, 2021, 12:15:54 PMIsn't that what classes are? The only difference I see is allowing everybody access to the same skills. So AD&D2e but removing the class skill restrictions.

Classes are just skill bundles. Instead of micromanaging each individual skill, a class/level system allows you to buy skills in groups.

Quote from: finarvyn on November 11, 2021, 04:44:45 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 11, 2021, 12:15:54 PMIsn't that what classes are? The only difference I see is allowing everybody access to the same skills. So AD&D2e but removing the class skill restrictions.

Classes are just skill bundles. Instead of micromanaging each individual skill, a class/level system allows you to buy skills in groups.

They're a bit more than that.  They also bake in some limitations.  Frex, in basic D&D if you're a cleric you just can't use a sword

Quote from: Mishihari on November 11, 2021, 04:53:23 PM

Quote from: finarvyn on November 11, 2021, 04:44:45 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 11, 2021, 12:15:54 PMIsn't that what classes are? The only difference I see is allowing everybody access to the same skills. So AD&D2e but removing the class skill restrictions.

Classes are just skill bundles. Instead of micromanaging each individual skill, a class/level system allows you to buy skills in groups.

They're a bit more than that.  They also bake in some limitations.  Frex, in basic D&D if you're a cleric you just can't use a sword

Something I never understood.

In my "modern" game my "totally not a Cleric" can use the exact same type of weapons as my "totally not a Warrior" only restricted to the heavy ones, because of training (and such restriction is really a -1 (or thereabouts) mod to the to hit roll.

But you can totally buy the training to remove the -1 or even get a possitive mod.

Untrained -1, Trained 0, Expert +1, Especialist +2

Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 11, 2021, 04:59:40 PM

Quote from: Mishihari on November 11, 2021, 04:53:23 PM

Quote from: finarvyn on November 11, 2021, 04:44:45 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 11, 2021, 12:15:54 PMIsn't that what classes are? The only difference I see is allowing everybody access to the same skills. So AD&D2e but removing the class skill restrictions.

Classes are just skill bundles. Instead of micromanaging each individual skill, a class/level system allows you to buy skills in groups.

They're a bit more than that.  They also bake in some limitations.  Frex, in basic D&D if you're a cleric you just can't use a sword

Something I never understood.

In my "modern" game my "totally not a Cleric" can use the exact same type of weapons as my "totally not a Warrior" only restricted to the heavy ones, because of training (and such restriction is really a -1 (or thereabouts) mod to the to hit roll.

But you can totally buy the training to remove the -1 or even get a possitive mod.

Untrained -1, Trained 0, Expert +1, Especialist +2

With respect to the design process, it lets you put disadvantages in classes as well as advantages.  This makes classes a bit more interesting and gives another tool to balance the strength of the classes.

With respect to this particular limitation, the most entertaining rationale I've heard is that it is intended to illustrate the hypocrisy of certain groups.  They're forbidden to "shed blood" so they take it literally and kill with blunt weapons instead.

That's not to say that I particularly care for that specific limitation, but there are reasons.

Quote from: Jason Coplen on November 11, 2021, 12:17:57 PM
Just started so I may say more, but...the Silk Road Crusades game sounds awesome. I'm sold on it already. For as much shit as the lefties give you, you make fun games.

Thank you!

Quote from: Mishihari on November 11, 2021, 04:53:23 PM

Quote from: finarvyn on November 11, 2021, 04:44:45 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 11, 2021, 12:15:54 PMIsn't that what classes are? The only difference I see is allowing everybody access to the same skills. So AD&D2e but removing the class skill restrictions.

Classes are just skill bundles. Instead of micromanaging each individual skill, a class/level system allows you to buy skills in groups.

They're a bit more than that.  They also bake in some limitations.  Frex, in basic D&D if you're a cleric you just can't use a sword

Which is where your argument that "doctor, lawyer, etc" are a good equivalent to D&D classes falls apart. But you'd know that if  you'd had time to watch the video.

I think this sounds like a better approach to classes in general. I'd be inclined to carry it back to the sword and sorcery systems. I've never really liked the traditional D&D style class framework.

I am thinking of the modern games I have played that used classes. 

Top Secret(1e) had three classes: assassin, confiscator, and investigator.  Gangbusters had classes based on profession as well, Criminal, cop, reporter, etc. cyberpunk did also, though that wasn't modern when it came out.  Other "modern" type settings had classes based on what type of person you were. Star Frontiers had people who were good at tech, good at fighting, and good at interpersonal stuff.  Gangbusters B/X has Brutish, Educated, Connected, and Street Smart, all denoting more of a personality or background that shaped a character, than actual skillset. 

Finally, there was D20 Modern (not Old School I know, but worth a mention strictly for analysis sake) which had a class based on each attribute: Strong hero (good at fighting), Smart Hero (thinker), Wise hero (basically a healer), Fast hero (dexterous guy), Tough hero (can take a beating but not as good a fighter as Strong hero), and Charismatic hero (the leader/face).  D20M had skills that were easier to buy if it fit your archetype, but you could basically have any skill. Other than that, the system was a hot mess.

So let's look at what the Classes are supposed to do.  They help each player determine what role they would play on a team. 

It would be easier for everyone involved to have classes associated with role in the group or profession as that would help a player fill that role and act in ways that played to their strengths, this way you don't have the skinny smart guy with mo martial skills trying to go toe-to-toe with thugs while the big hairy stevedore who competes in prize fights, tries to disarm a bomb. 

A more complex game would allow players to choose "whatever they want" or have some die rolls assign weird skillsets to simulate their previous lives prior to becoming adventurers.  This would increase character creation time and facillitate more investment  into a character.  It might detract from a game with a high turnover (death) rate.