This is an idea I've been tossing around many times before but with very little concrete progress made on the different spins I had on this idea. Since I'm not currently outlining a specific game concept, I figured I'd post this thread in the general RPG board. Mods, if you feel this thread belongs in the Design board, feel free to move it.

Anyway, I've been getting more and more into OSR gaming as a concept lately. I recently purchased the core rules to Basic Fantasy on Amazon (I prefer hard copies to PDF's as a general rule), and I love the rules and style. Although I do like D&D 3.5/Pathfinder and 5e, I'll admit I have a soft spot for TSR-era D&D. I love OD&D and both editions of AD&D. I own the books for both 1e and 2e AD&D, and even played a 2e Ravenloft campaign DM'd by my Dad using the original Realm of Terror boxed set, and while I have never played or ran OD&D, I'd like to get into that one day. I don't have much familiarity with Basic D&D on any level, so that's why I bought Basic Fantasy. And I have to say, it's my favorite iteration of OSR D&D overall and I can't wait to try it out. But that brings me to my next point.

I have been wanting to make my own OSR game for a while now. In the past I have toyed around with ideas for anime-inspired concepts and even a survival horror idea. Sadly, the ideas pretty much died on arrival due to various factors. One of my biggest hang-ups is deciding on a system to emulate. Originally I was going to try to clone OD&D or AD&D, but Basic Fantasy has inspired me to use a system similar to Basic Fantasy/BX. However, it seems like all the systems have already been cloned, so I've not got much to set my ideas apart from the rest. What do I do?

I know the current trend is less about producing generic retro-clones and more on making unique settings or concepts within the retro-clone OSR framework. However, most of my more recent ideas have been done before. I could do my pseudo-fantasy British Isles setting but I'm pretty sure Dark Albion does it better and I don't want to step on Pundit's toes.

So, I'm thinking of starting from scratch in terms of concept, but not in terms of mechanics. For the mechanics, I want to use something as similar to Basic Fantasy's core rules as I can legally get away with. However, I do have some concepts and gimmicks stirring around in my head for these ideas. I'll keep you posted on the specific ideas as they are fleshed out.

So, I have the following specific questions for the OSR community.

How do I properly use the OGL? What are the specific terms of the license in gaming terms and do I have to actually contact anyone of any sort, if at all?

How would I go about making my B/X styled rules if I'm going off of Basic Fantasy as my frame of reference. I don't want to step on Chris Gonnerman's toes so to speak, so I'm probably going to have to essentially make a clone of a clone. How do I make the base rules legally distinct enough to be officially published. Or does the OGL have me covered in that sense too?

This next question is directed at the OSR crowd on this site, particularly Pundit and other published OSR game designers. What would you recommend in making a good OSR game and having it stand out at least a little bit in the OSR gaming community?

Comments and insight would be greatly appreciated.

Actually, a JRPG transliteration into OSR would be a very welcome addition to the setting niches. Follow that thought. (And understand that licensing could really screw you over from both tabletop & video gaming, but chase those ideas anyway.)

Which anime and/or survivor-horror were you thinking of emulating? Why do you think it would be fun to play at the table instead of watching or playing on screen? What elements are most iconic of that show's/video game's experience?

Quote from: Opaopajr;950532Actually, a JRPG transliteration into OSR would be a very welcome addition to the setting niches. Follow that thought. (And understand that licensing could really screw you over from both tabletop & video gaming, but chase those ideas anyway.)

Which anime and/or survivor-horror were you thinking of emulating? Why do you think it would be fun to play at the table instead of watching or playing on screen? What elements are most iconic of that show's/video game's experience?

Well, I want my OSR project to have cool anime artwork regardless of genre, and I'm thinking of taking motifs and tropes prevalent in seinen anime to put in my game. As for survival horror, the early PS1-era Resident Evil games would be an inspiration, even if they are modern horror and not traditional fantasy.

Genres I would like to take cues from are gritty Sword & Sorcery tales, Low Fantasy, Victorian Gothic Horror, survival horror and survival sandbox video games, and seinen anime & manga (particularly the violent fare such as Black Lagoon, Berserk, Vampire Hunter D, Hellsing, Elfen Lied, and various cheap OVA's from the 80's and 90's, etc.).

My idea for an OSR game would have to have artwork drawn in the style of Anime & Manga, as well as bleak Gothic scenery, and Halloween/Horror imagery. I may take the idea of a base generic approach to the setting (at least at first) but with a clear vision of the thematic and aesthetic details of what a typical campaign would entail.

I would love to draw influence and inspirations from my favorite D&D setting, Ravenloft. Obviously, I cannot actually make a Ravenloft OSR game, but I could make an original B/X styled OSR game that is styled in the spirit and atmosphere of early Ravenloft.

So far, my vision of an OSR game designed by me would be a gorier and more weebish spiritual successor to Ravenloft.


EDIT-I've even come up with a working title for it, the project will be called Black Castle. At least it will be if I can't come up with a better name.

I might even take some cues from Dark Albion and make fictionalized dark fantasy versions of Europe and Japan for the setting. Unlike Dark Albion, I'm not too focused on historical accuracy, although the way I'm envisioning Black Castle as its developing in my head means that Humans will probably be the only playable race for now.

Expect a full thread for Black Castle in the Design board pretty soon.

UPDATE: The Design thread for Black Castle is up.

http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?36274-Black-Castle-A-Long-Term-OSR-Project&p=950536#post950536

Most of the current OSR games (like Lamentations and ACKS) are based on Basic Fantasy's text. Everything in it is OGL. Just change what you want to change and add it to the OGL statement.

Quote from: quozl;950541Most of the current OSR games (like Lamentations and ACKS) are based on Basic Fantasy's text. Everything in it is OGL. Just change what you want to change and add it to the OGL statement.

Sounds good to me. I'm already making my modifications to it, as seen in the official Black Castle thread.

The vast majority of OSR Games are written using the Open Gaming License.

Using that, you can literally copy any open gaming content (you just have to put the section 15 of the source of the material you used, in your product's section 15). But make sure it's open content. There should be a statement in the book which declares what content is open and what isn't (called product identity). Some products are deliberately vague about this (OSRIC most notably among OSR games) in order so you won't do this. However, I was under the impression that Basic Fantasy was completely open (and even made available in word processor format. (Labyrinth Lord and Swords & Wizardry are also like this in that regardi

However, you don't actually have to. Some games are not. Many of Kevin Crawford's games for instance, but don't use the OGL, both are still essentially D&D based (Spears of the Dawn for instance). He's a smart guy who knows what he's doing though.

Anyway, the OGL itself is pretty simply written and fairly easy to understand. But the point of it was to let 3rd parties make D&D material but limiting their ability to use the D&D name (they made a separate, now defunct, license for that, but the OGL itself cannot be revoked).  So you can't ever refer to your game as being compatible with D&D or any other product, but have to use vague terms like "Original Edition of the World's First Fantasy RPG" or "Advanced Edition of the World's Most Popular Fantasy RPG".

Quote from: JeremyR;950544The vast majority of OSR Games are written using the Open Gaming License.

Using that, you can literally copy any open gaming content (you just have to put the section 15 of the source of the material you used, in your product's section 15). But make sure it's open content. There should be a statement in the book which declares what content is open and what isn't (called product identity). Some products are deliberately vague about this (OSRIC most notably among OSR games) in order so you won't do this. However, I was under the impression that Basic Fantasy was completely open (and even made available in word processor format. (Labyrinth Lord and Swords & Wizardry are also like this in that regardi

However, you don't actually have to. Some games are not. Many of Kevin Crawford's games for instance, but don't use the OGL, both are still essentially D&D based (Spears of the Dawn for instance). He's a smart guy who knows what he's doing though.

Anyway, the OGL itself is pretty simply written and fairly easy to understand. But the point of it was to let 3rd parties make D&D material but limiting their ability to use the D&D name (they made a separate, now defunct, license for that, but the OGL itself cannot be revoked).  So you can't ever refer to your game as being compatible with D&D or any other product, but have to use vague terms like "Original Edition of the World's First Fantasy RPG" or "Advanced Edition of the World's Most Popular Fantasy RPG".

Thank you for the information. This will prove valuable in my development of Black Castle.

There is an Anime Hack built for the excellent Black Hack that you should look at.

I'd suggest going back to the sources and read B/X and BECMI (available complete in the Rules Cyclopedia) and build your system from there rather than just cut and paste from the original rules or Basic Fantasy.

I'm a bit confused by your intention to use Anime art and gothic/Ravenloft setting but it could work.

I like the name Black Castle personally.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;950528How do I properly use the OGL? What are the specific terms of the license in gaming terms and do I have to actually contact anyone of any sort, if at all?

OGL allows the content of products to divided into two halves; open content and product identity. Open content means anybody can use the material in their own work provided that make that open content as well. Product Identity is a fancy way of saying that section is still under the author's copyright and can't be used unless you have a specific agreement. In some cases there will be a trademark that product identity but will have a separate trademark license that you can use with some conditions (usually minor). For example you can indicated compatibility with Swords & Wizardry if all your stat blocks indicate Armor Class like this: 8[11]. With the 8 being the old style descending AC and the what in the bracket the new style ascending AC.

As for contacting anybody, legally no. As a matter of social courtesy I would recommend it specially if you major sections of their work. Part of what makes the OSR the OSR is while it a bunch of one man publishing houses people come together for various projects or help each other with art, maps, editing, etc. While there is a profit to be had a major reward is the adulation of one's customers and fellow gamers. In short it a courtesy that has major benefits but you shouldn't beat yourself up over the issue. Just talk with folks about what you are doing and they will either chime in or not. Either way it shows you making an effort and that is enough.

Now the warning, remember the OGL is a COPYRIGHT GRANT. Whatever opinions you have about the morality or specifics of copyright, your golden rule as an authors unless there is an EXPLICIT permission don't use it. The best documents for this are the various System Reference Documents. Next best are stuff like my Blackmarsh that declare the text (and maps) as open content leaving only the trademarks, logos, and art under product identity. Following that are the books like my Majestic Wilderlands which clearly designate which sections are open content (the first two in my supplement) and which is Product identity (the last section). The worse are those books that go "Everything is product identity except the stuff derived from the SRD". Adventures in Middle Earth is like that. Now to be fair adventure modules are also like that but in my opinion that OK because of the fact they are adventures and 100% open content adventure for the most part is not that useful.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;950528How would I go about making my B/X styled rules if I'm going off of Basic Fantasy as my frame of reference. I don't want to step on Chris Gonnerman's toes so to speak, so I'm probably going to have to essentially make a clone of a clone. How do I make the base rules legally distinct enough to be officially published. Or does the OGL have me covered in that sense too?

The OGL has you covered. The Basic Fantasy text is open content so you are good there. They have a trademark license as well. In short I think the expect people to be doing what you are planning to do. But still you want as broad an audience as possible so email the authors and explain what you will doing so they can help you.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;950528This next question is directed at the OSR crowd on this site, particularly Pundit and other published OSR game designers. What would you recommend in making a good OSR game and having it stand out at least a little bit in the OSR gaming community?

It needs to reflect you vision and be written in your voice. The base has been covered .... a lot. What people want is a distinct voice that brings a new prespective. Don't just present new mechanics explain why are using those mechanics. How they make for a different style of campaign.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;950528Comments and insight would be greatly appreciated.

What a great informative thread! I was wondering why some d20/D&D-compatible books have an OGL page and others don't, like AiME. And I didn't know Basic Fantiasy is 100% open content. That's pretty cool.

BTW Estar, I used Blackmarsh as a significant location and hex-crawl in my last campaign. Thanks for that one!

Quote from: estar;950609OGL allows the content of products to divided into two halves; open content and product identity. Open content means anybody can use the material in their own work provided that make that open content as well. Product Identity is a fancy way of saying that section is still under the author's copyright and can't be used unless you have a specific agreement. In some cases there will be a trademark that product identity but will have a separate trademark license that you can use with some conditions (usually minor). For example you can indicated compatibility with Swords & Wizardry if all your stat blocks indicate Armor Class like this: 8[11]. With the 8 being the old style descending AC and the what in the bracket the new style ascending AC.

As for contacting anybody, legally no. As a matter of social courtesy I would recommend it specially if you major sections of their work. Part of what makes the OSR the OSR is while it a bunch of one man publishing houses people come together for various projects or help each other with art, maps, editing, etc. While there is a profit to be had a major reward is the adulation of one's customers and fellow gamers. In short it a courtesy that has major benefits but you shouldn't beat yourself up over the issue. Just talk with folks about what you are doing and they will either chime in or not. Either way it shows you making an effort and that is enough.

Now the warning, remember the OGL is a COPYRIGHT GRANT. Whatever opinions you have about the morality or specifics of copyright, your golden rule as an authors unless there is an EXPLICIT permission don't use it. The best documents for this are the various System Reference Documents. Next best are stuff like my Blackmarsh that declare the text (and maps) as open content leaving only the trademarks, logos, and art under product identity. Following that are the books like my Majestic Wilderlands which clearly designate which sections are open content (the first two in my supplement) and which is Product identity (the last section). The worse are those books that go "Everything is product identity except the stuff derived from the SRD". Adventures in Middle Earth is like that. Now to be fair adventure modules are also like that but in my opinion that OK because of the fact they are adventures and 100% open content adventure for the most part is not that useful.




The OGL has you covered. The Basic Fantasy text is open content so you are good there. They have a trademark license as well. In short I think the expect people to be doing what you are planning to do. But still you want as broad an audience as possible so email the authors and explain what you will doing so they can help you.



It needs to reflect you vision and be written in your voice. The base has been covered .... a lot. What people want is a distinct voice that brings a new prespective. Don't just present new mechanics explain why are using those mechanics. How they make for a different style of campaign.

Duly noted. I will take these words to heart in my development of Black Castle.

All the stuff that you hate with the burning fury of a thousand suns and can't wait to put on paper and share with the world...don't.  Your "voice" doesn't mean all your pet peeves, petty hatreds, and psychological peccadillos.  Leave that shit at home.

Don't create a new game at all. There are plenty already out on the market, most of them interchangeable and forgettable. Just pick one close to what you want and write adventures that include a short section on rules modifications for it instead.

Quote from: jeff37923;950764Don't create a new game at all. There are plenty already out on the market, most of them interchangeable and forgettable. Just pick one close to what you want and write adventures that include a short section on rules modifications for it instead.

I guess I could do that, but I really want to get Black Castle published in some form. I'm not trying to make a profit off of it or anything, it's a just for fun thing. But I think it would be cool to be able to say that I published my own OSR RPG, even if it's a small and obscure game like Black Castle will inevitably be.

Seconding what CRKrueger said. Nothing worse than someone slamming another game or gaming style in their material or intro and telling you how much better their game is.