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Author Topic: (OSR Gaming) Trying to Capture an Old-School Feel  (Read 13877 times)

Maarzan

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(OSR Gaming) Trying to Capture an Old-School Feel
« Reply #120 on: January 12, 2017, 01:39:19 PM »
Quote from: ChristopherKubasik;940193
Yes. But I believe (but maybe I'm misreading you?) you are focusing on potential problems rather than celebrating the potential for terrific play found when the rules are not there to constrain potential problems but offer freedom for creativity on the fly.

In other words -- I think -- we've got a split between "features" and "bugs" -- with my feet firmly planted on the "features" side of having a loose collection of guidelines for play.


I don´t think you are misreading me.
 
With the right people you can have a lot fun playing rather free form.
But in my experience this option comes from a long time adapting and getting to know each other in a certain similar minded group in a lot of other, more rigidly rule goverend games. So you are rather not playing free, but the sum of collected and shared experiences of the past.

And you can´t put this common history in a box, so I am quite sceptical you really can recreate a longer lasting "positive Old School feel"m especially  without also adding some more framework, at least if you are not feeding it to a complete star eyed newbie, but someone who can compare and will find the bugs much faster than the fresh starters in the past.  

So it looks a lot like Christmas in my opinion: If you want to see the spirit and wonder of Christmas again, you will have to search for its reflection in the eyes of children. You will not find it again alone.

christopherkubasik

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(OSR Gaming) Trying to Capture an Old-School Feel
« Reply #121 on: January 12, 2017, 02:17:11 PM »
Quote from: Maarzan;940197
I don´t think you are misreading me.
 
With the right people you can have a lot fun playing rather free form.
But in my experience this option comes from a long time adapting and getting to know each other in a certain similar minded group in a lot of other, more rigidly rule goverend games. So you are rather not playing free, but the sum of collected and shared experiences of the past.

And you can´t put this common history in a box, so I am quite sceptical you really can recreate a longer lasting "positive Old School feel"m especially  without also adding some more framework, at least if you are not feeding it to a complete star eyed newbie, but someone who can compare and will find the bugs much faster than the fresh starters in the past.  

So it looks a lot like Christmas in my opinion: If you want to see the spirit and wonder of Christmas again, you will have to search for its reflection in the eyes of children. You will not find it again alone.

Your fears, of course, are not something I can argue against.

All I can say is this:

I started a Lamentations of the Flame Princess campaign in the fall of 2015. I would be playing it in an Old School style.

I wanted six players. I told a few friends about it. I started a Meetup page for it.

I was explicit about the kind of game I wanted. In my emails to friends and the Meetup page I wrote:
Quote
Lamenations of the Flame Princess is part of the Old School Renaissance of RPGs. A clean and sleek version of the early Dungeons & Dragons Basic Set, the game focuses on exploration, danger, and weird fantasy. The setting will not be Tolkien-esque, but a warped 17th century Europe where the strange and magical is rare, inexplicable, and invasive.

OSR games in general, and Lamentations of the Flame Princess specifically, work from principles that are different than a lot of game in recent decades. In general…
  • The Referee has environments and situations, not a pre-planned “story” of any kind
  • Players drive things forward with their choices
  • The game is dangerous. The Referee is not there to kill your characters, but neither is he there to protect them. Dice are rolled out in the open. Death is part of the game. (Luckily, new characters are easy to roll up!)
  • The situations you encounter are not “balanced.” You might want to avoid encounters, you might want to flee encounters, and if you choose to engage them you’ll want to have the PCs manipulate the fiction toward your advantage (Short hand: Think of conflicts as asymmetrical warfare, not as engaging in a sport.)
  • In this kind of play the Referee presents the players with an environment that is as solid as possible, that would continue existing if you weren’t there.

(A more details post about these matters can be found here.)

I gathered my six players. Of the six:
  • Two I had known for years. We had never played D&D together or any Old School play. (It had been games of Sorcerer, Burning Wheel, Primetime Adventures, Fiasco, and the like.)
  • One I knew from another Meetup group where we had played together about 10 sessions of various games (Burning Wheel, Mouse Guard, Pendragon, Dungeon World)
  • And three were total strangers pulled from the Meetup page (I asked questions via the Meetup site. Those that seemed like people I'd want to hang with were invited to my home.) These players had played (I later found out) in heavy-DM-plotted 5e games. They wanted to play D&D... just something different.)

To your point: Three utter strangers. One I did not know that well. None had played any Old School style before (they range in age from late 20s to 40s). Admittedly, some of the game referenced above demand a strong Referee and lots of creative trust.

And the result?

The game has been going gangbusters. In fact, a couple of months ago I checked in with the players: "Hey, I need to know if we want to keep doing this. is everyone having a good time?" I barely got the words out before I was hit with a unanimous and enthusiastic "Yes!" -- kind of at the level where they were wondering if I was crazy for having to ask.

Now, does this disprove your dramatic Christmas metaphor? Of course not! Because some games go bad. But I can easily state that your summation as a fact is preposterous.

Seriously. You are over reaching and asking me to believe too much.

I'm not saying you want what I want from my Monday night game. But it isn't the strange unicorn that you think it is.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2017, 02:25:33 PM by ChristopherKubasik »

Maarzan

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« Reply #122 on: January 12, 2017, 03:58:54 PM »
OK, perhaps I have the wrong (i.e. too limited ) picture of OSR gaming.

In front of my remembering eye there is the wonder of opening a box full of wonder, monsters, magic and alien lands and everything got put together wildly in a rather disorganized gonzo mix in the attempt to swallow it as fast and as much as possible and characters sometimes got numbered because they died so fast or someone tried to try something different. It was a blast and it was pure chaos.

What you describe there sounds much more like the tries to organize and improve it after the first enthusiasm calmed down a little bit and people were starting to find rough edges, started to ask questions and then either someone took up the reigns and told how things are going to work now or someone else tried to to formulate rules to bring a little bit more order to the table for everyone. With the problem that styles started to devide from each other and you can´t box the big guy ... .

Gronan of Simmerya

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(OSR Gaming) Trying to Capture an Old-School Feel
« Reply #123 on: January 12, 2017, 04:03:43 PM »
Not all of us were 11 when we started playing OD&D.  My first referee was in his mid to late 30s.
You should go to GaryCon.  Period.

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crkrueger

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(OSR Gaming) Trying to Capture an Old-School Feel
« Reply #124 on: January 12, 2017, 04:11:29 PM »
That's an interesting point, due to where you could purchase it, I doubt most of the people who got the 3 little brown books when they first came out were children or pre-teens.  Once the Boxed Sets started getting into bookstores and toystores that's something different, but that was a little later.
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christopherkubasik

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(OSR Gaming) Trying to Capture an Old-School Feel
« Reply #125 on: January 12, 2017, 04:20:06 PM »
Quote from: Maarzan;940231
OK, perhaps I have the wrong (i.e. too limited ) picture of OSR gaming.

In front of my remembering eye there is the wonder of opening a box full of wonder, monsters, magic and alien lands and everything got put together wildly in a rather disorganized gonzo mix in the attempt to swallow it as fast and as much as possible and characters sometimes got numbered because they died so fast or someone tried to try something different. It was a blast and it was pure chaos.

What you describe there sounds much more like the tries to organize and improve it after the first enthusiasm calmed down a little bit and people were starting to find rough edges, started to ask questions and then either someone took up the reigns and told how things are going to work now or someone else tried to to formulate rules to bring a little bit more order to the table for everyone. With the problem that styles started to devide from each other and you can´t box the big guy ... .

There's a lot crammed into that post, but I'll say two things:

1. Old School requires someone take the reigns and organizes it. That's a given, not an odd exception.
2. By playing LotFP scenarios the strangeness and wonder is back. As a player said: "I know we're playing D&D... but this isn't like any D&D I've ever played. There's no elves, no dwarves. We haven't fought a single orc or goblin. We're battling death cults and alien invaders form alternate dimensions in 17th Century Europe."
And I'm like, "Exactly. That's what makes it D&D."
« Last Edit: January 12, 2017, 04:27:36 PM by ChristopherKubasik »

christopherkubasik

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« Reply #126 on: January 12, 2017, 04:23:16 PM »
Quote from: CRKrueger;940235
That's an interesting point, due to where you could purchase it, I doubt most of the people who got the 3 little brown books when they first came out were children or pre-teens.  Once the Boxed Sets started getting into bookstores and toystores that's something different, but that was a little later.

It's a vital point as to the expectations of play.

The games were written by adults for adults. That allowed a lot more leeway in terms of rules (or lack thereof), interoperation, and trust at the table.

Later, TSR wanted to sell to children. That dictated different expectations for rules and play. Much more structured, no interpretation required.

Mordred Pendragon

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(OSR Gaming) Trying to Capture an Old-School Feel
« Reply #127 on: January 12, 2017, 06:12:02 PM »
Wow, this thread has grown greatly.

Now I want to revisit my idea of running an old-school play by post campaign on here. Will probably do OD&D by way of either Microlite74 Basic or Delving Deeper.

Anyone interested?
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Eric Diaz

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(OSR Gaming) Trying to Capture an Old-School Feel
« Reply #128 on: January 12, 2017, 11:11:46 PM »
Quote from: Doc Sammy;889057
As a 22-year old gamer who originally missed the boat on old-school D&D and whose first RPG was D&D 3.5e, and whose primary experiences are with new-school D&D, White Wolf, and BESM, tell me and show me how best to capture the old-school atmosphere and style of OD&D, 1e, and 2e respectively. Any help or advice would be appreciated.

The meaning of "old school" is different for different people.

I started a thread here about this:

http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?32897-What-is-old-school

And here are some of my opinions, things I learned from that discussion and other things. I changed my mind about some stuff but it might be useful.

Play Now, Story Later
http://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com.br/2015/11/old-school-ramblings-1-play-now-story.html

Your character isn't special
http://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com.br/2015/11/old-school-ramblings-2-your-character.html

But what about Conan?; or: Appendix N characters are uninteresting
http://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com.br/2015/11/old-school-ramblings-3-but-what-about.html

Stop looking at the character sheet
http://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com.br/2016/06/old-school-ramblings-4-stop-looking-at.html
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Methods & Madness - my  D&D 5e / Old School / Game design blog.

Omega

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(OSR Gaming) Trying to Capture an Old-School Feel
« Reply #129 on: January 13, 2017, 12:52:04 AM »
Quote from: Black Vulmea;940046
No.

Just fucking no.


Yes. Fucking yes.

Its useful when you want some random, or a basic idea on the spot. "Does my character know that? uh... have no clue..." and roll it.

Omega

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(OSR Gaming) Trying to Capture an Old-School Feel
« Reply #130 on: January 13, 2017, 12:57:21 AM »
Quote from: CRKrueger;940235
That's an interesting point, due to where you could purchase it, I doubt most of the people who got the 3 little brown books when they first came out were children or pre-teens.  Once the Boxed Sets started getting into bookstores and toystores that's something different, but that was a little later.

The boxed sets showed up in department stores too. BX in particular. Though that was substantially later.

Shemek hiTankolel

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(OSR Gaming) Trying to Capture an Old-School Feel
« Reply #131 on: January 13, 2017, 01:27:27 PM »
Quote from: ChristopherKubasik;940242
There's a lot crammed into that post, but I'll say two things:

1. Old School requires someone take the reigns and organizes it. That's a given, not an odd exception.
2. By playing LotFP scenarios the strangeness and wonder is back. As a player said: "I know we're playing D&D... but this isn't like any D&D I've ever played. There's no elves, no dwarves. We haven't fought a single orc or goblin. We're battling death cults and alien invaders form alternate dimensions in 17th Century Europe."
And I'm like, "Exactly. That's what makes it D&D."


This, exactly!

Shemek.
Don't part with your illusions. When they are gone you may still exist, but you have ceased to live.
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Maarzan

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(OSR Gaming) Trying to Capture an Old-School Feel
« Reply #132 on: January 13, 2017, 03:30:57 PM »
Quote from: ChristopherKubasik;940242
There's a lot crammed into that post, but I'll say two things:

1. Old School requires someone take the reigns and organizes it. That's a given, not an odd exception.


Ok, as this seems to be taken as standard, I stand corrected and had the wrong idea regarding "Old school".

But if the fitting GM is a so big part of the parcel, it will be hard to recreate for a newbie from a rules system alone.

christopherkubasik

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(OSR Gaming) Trying to Capture an Old-School Feel
« Reply #133 on: January 13, 2017, 03:55:56 PM »
Quote from: Maarzan;940452
Ok, as this seems to be taken as standard, I stand corrected and had the wrong idea regarding "Old school".

But if the fitting GM is a so big part of the parcel, it will be hard to recreate for a newbie from a rules system alone.

I agree... with two caveats.

1. The early days of the hobby were built by people (designers and players) with heads stuffed with SF and Fantasy novels and stories. These were the original sourcebooks of the hobby and people could roll out the monsters and environments they'd read about with their friends. (I have this theory that novels and stories provided better inspiration for such play than movies and TV, but it's just a gut hunch, and I can't justify it at all. My bad.)

2. The hobby grew out of a larger hobby of miniature enthusiasts and war gamers cross-pollinating with fans of SF and Fantasy. That is, the first players (at least the DMs, if not the Players as well) of OD&D, original Traveller, and other games were not starting "cold." Not only where the first RPGs an outgrowth of a hobby already in full swing, but the players were part of that hobby as well... with practical and cultural support for understanding and playing RPGs already in place. (I touch on these ideas somewhat in this post.)

So, yes, it would be difficult for a a "newbie" approaching OD&D from the rules alone. But most people in the first years were not approaching the rules alone -- they were approaching them with an entire hobby and culture of play supporting them.

Later games would (in my view) shift in this regard. They become more and more independent of the war-game/referee-driven/reading-driven play of the early years. These games were more self-contained, with the rules nailing down what would previously been assumptions of how to play and developing setting and adventure material built specifically for the game.

[Edited to Add: I'm not saying this shift was good or bad. I'm saying it happened. That is all.]
« Last Edit: January 13, 2017, 04:11:39 PM by ChristopherKubasik »

Black Vulmea

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(OSR Gaming) Trying to Capture an Old-School Feel
« Reply #134 on: January 13, 2017, 04:10:59 PM »
Quote from: ChristopherKubasik;940454
1. The early days of the hobby were built by people (designers and players) with heads stuffed with SF and Fantasy novels and stories. These were the original sourcebooks of the hobby and people could roll out the monsters and environments they'd read about with their friends. (I have this theory that novels and stories provided better inspiration for such play than movies and TV, but it's just a gut hunch, and I can't justify it at all. My bad.)

2. The hobby grew out of a larger hobby of miniature enthusiasts and war gamers cross-pollinating with fans of SF and Fantasy. That is, the first players (at least the DMs, if not the Players as well) of OD&D, original Traveller, and other games were not starting "cold." Not only where the first RPGs an outgrowth of a hobby already in full swing, but the players were part of that hobby as well... with practical and cultural support for understanding and playing RPGs already in place. (I touch on these ideas somewhat in this post.)

So, yes, it would be difficult for a a "newbie" approaching OD&D from the rules alone. But most people in the first years were not approaching the rules alone -- they were approaching them with an entire hobby and culture of play supporting them.
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Quote from: ChristopherKubasik;940454
I have this theory that novels and stories provided better inspiration for such play than movies and TV, but it's just a gut hunch, and I can't justify it at all.
Perhaps because reading requires you to visualize a scene rather than view it?
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