Origins of 3E D&D design concepts.

Phillip · March 15, 2011, 07:53:41 PM

I think the original "prestige class" was probably the original Paladin.

D&D Supplement I, Greyhawk:

Charisma scores of 17 or greater by fighters indicate the possibility of paladin status IF THEY ARE LAWFUL from the commencement of play for that character. If such fighters elect to they can then become paladins...

Caesar Slaad · March 15, 2011, 07:55:55 PM

Quote from: ggroy;445889Where did prestige classes come from?

(ie. Besides the bard in 1E AD&D).

Sounds like you got it in one, though a second instance of a "follow on" class appeared in the Thief-Acrobat of 1e Unearthed Arcana.

Fifth Element · March 15, 2011, 08:05:34 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit;446355Is the plan now to try to claim that not a single thing in 3e could possibly have been an original thought in Tweet & Cook's heads?

I believe it was Monte's idea to put in intentionally subpar feats to trap newbies.

Quote from: Benoist;446417J. Tweet and M. Rein*Hagen.

Rein-Hagen. You don't get to have stars or circles in your name, regardless of how artsy or painfully hip you are.

Premier · March 15, 2011, 08:24:27 PM

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;445945Both the Bard and Thief-Acrobat in 1E are sort of like PrCs, but Tweet also mentions the concept here as being from RuneQuest.

1E wasn't the only version of D&D with the concept. The idea also appears in the Companion volume of the BECMI series where fighters could become paladins, knights or avengers, clerics druids, and mages either wizards (independent, has a tower), magists (in service to a lord) or magi (wandering).Thieves could become guildmasters or wandering rogues.

Mechanically, not all options were really different from the alternatives (notable exception being the fighter variants and the druid, but the concept was clearly there.

Bloody Stupid Johnson · March 15, 2011, 11:11:31 PM

I hadn't realized PrCs would be a contentious topic....oh well.
The article I linked earlier includes Tweet saying that 'RuneQuest was the RPG that taught me how to design RPGs' and mentions RQ as having prestige classes, amongst a number of other things. He's dated RQ as 1978 there, whereas BECMI appears to be 1983. So I'd interpret RQ as being the primary influence here, even if that other examples in D&D might make it easier to get the change accepted by the other designers.

Benoist · March 15, 2011, 11:42:46 PM

Quote from: Fifth Element;446455I believe it was Monte's idea to put in intentionally subpar feats to trap newbies.

You have a source for that? In the Ivory Tower piece he is referring to "us" and "our idea" but he's not saying it was his own idea, as opposed to the others'.

Quote from: Fifth Element;446455Rein-Hagen. You don't get to have stars or circles in your name, regardless of how artsy or painfully hip you are.

You seem to give more of a shit about the dot than I do.

ggroy · March 16, 2011, 12:40:44 PM

More generally, what would be considered a "highly original" rpg mechanic these days?

Or has most of the common bases for rpg mechanics, been already covered exhaustively over the last 30-35+ years?

Omnifray · March 16, 2011, 03:11:24 PM

Quote from: Melan;445958...and Ninjae could just kill people with critical hits.

The Japanese plural of ninja is ninja. You might also be able to say ninjatachi.

The English plural of ninja is either ninja or ninjas.

Please no more ninjae, katanae or samuraie. Thank you :-)

Yours sincerely

Nitpicky the Pedantic Grammar-Nazi

Melan · March 16, 2011, 03:16:11 PM

Thank you for the information, Omnifray! :hatsoff:

Fifth Element · March 16, 2011, 09:34:47 PM

Quote from: Benoist;446481You have a source for that? In the Ivory Tower piece he is referring to "us" and "our idea" but he's not saying it was his own idea, as opposed to the others'.

Nope, just internet rumors and poking at bears.

Quote from: Benoist;446481You seem to give more of a shit about the dot than I do.

I care precisely enough to take nine seconds out of my day to type 100 characters or so, which I don't think meets the definition of a shit.

Fifth Element · March 16, 2011, 09:35:38 PM

Quote from: ggroy;446624More generally, what would be considered a "highly original" rpg mechanic these days?

Or has most of the common bases for rpg mechanics, been already covered exhaustively over the last 30-35+ years?

Wasn't there one recently that used Jenga for conflict resolution?

Peregrin · March 16, 2011, 09:36:56 PM

Quote from: ggroy;446624More generally, what would be considered a "highly original" rpg mechanic these days?

Or has most of the common bases for rpg mechanics, been already covered exhaustively over the last 30-35+ years?

In terms of what people here consider RPGs, a lot of stuff has been covered, but I'm sure there's room here or there for a few "neat ideas."

It also depends on your definition of "system." I think there are plenty of GMs/groups who have unique techniques that they use to make play more fun, a certain "flow", but those things aren't necessarily written down, even if they are paramount to how the group interfaces with the rules or the "game."

Bill White · March 16, 2011, 09:54:16 PM

Quote from: Fifth Element;446805Wasn't there one recently that used Jenga for conflict resolution?

You're thinking of Dread, a horror game.

Benoist · March 16, 2011, 10:51:09 PM

Quote from: Fifth Element;446804I care precisely enough to take nine seconds out of my day to type 100 characters or so, which I don't think meets the definition of a shit.

Hm. Good point. Obi Wan taught you well.

RPGPundit · March 17, 2011, 01:19:02 PM

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;446477I hadn't realized PrCs would be a contentious topic....oh well.
The article I linked earlier includes Tweet saying that 'RuneQuest was the RPG that taught me how to design RPGs' and mentions RQ as having prestige classes, amongst a number of other things. He's dated RQ as 1978 there, whereas BECMI appears to be 1983. So I'd interpret RQ as being the primary influence here, even if that other examples in D&D might make it easier to get the change accepted by the other designers.

"primary influence"? Let's see, 3e is a D&D game, based on D&D, imitating the style of the 1e books, full of D&D tropes, and you're trying to claim its primary influence was runequest?

Why the fuck do people hate D&D so much that they have to try to make an absurd twisted-in-knots argument to try to claim that it was runequest or ars magica or motherfucking Toon that was the main influence on Tweet and Cook, and not EARLIER EDITIONS OF D&D ITSELF, just like they claim and all logic and reason would demand?!

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