I've heard a lot of PC gamers expressing intense concerns about RPGs relating to non-european  cultures being rife with "orientalism".

Let me just say: I don't accept the concept of Orientalism in an academic concept (as in, I accept that there are people who get infatuated with a non-existant "mysterious east", but I soundly reject the DUMBASS Deconstructionist concept that we "can't ever possibly understand any other culture, ever"; fuck that).  So why the fuck am I going to accept it in the context of RPGs?

I mean, theres a huge difference between being a dude with prejudices (be they "good" prejudices or "bad" prejudices) about the middle east, India, or China; and with the idea that its impossible to understand these cultures.

If its impossible, then why the fuck not bother just playing up the worst aspects of one's prejudiced soul? Hell, if its impossible, then you're saying all understanding and comprehension of "the other" is utterly impossible, and thus Deconstructionism itself is incomprehensible.  The theory is self-consuming, and therefore WRONG.

Now that we have that out of the way, the question is, regarding "orientalism" in the sense of "prejudices about the east", is it even a bad thing in an RPG?

I mean, in my historical Three Kingdoms RPG I'm obviously taking great care to try my hardest to represent the realities of Chinese culture from that era, without any of the romantic notions westerners hold about ancient China (which is why I take such offense at the Deconstructionists' arguments; I know that eastern cultures can be understood because I've fucking DONE it).  On the other hand, even in that campaign, if you don't throw in a bit of kung-fu goodness, isn't it almost like you're deceiving your players as far as their expectations of what they will be able to get in the game?
I mean hell, how "orientalist" is it anyways, when you consider that most people's definitions of "kung fu goodness" these days comes right out of CHINESE films (like Hero or Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon)? If anything, these are romantic CHINESE notions that have idealized prejudices about their OWN history.  I mean hell, there's a reason why the best known historical text of the era my campaign is set in is called "Romance of the Three Kingdoms". Us evil white devils haven't got the monopoly on either historical revisionism or romantic notions.

And shit, if you're talking about a NON-Historical game, a modern game or especially a Fantasy game with a vaguely eastern setting, then what the fuck is the problem with playing out all the silly romanticized concepts about Chinese, "Arabian" or Indian societies?
Fuck, after all, what are Greyhawk or the Realms if not silly romanticized concepts of western European society? What's good for the goose...

This nonsense about orientalism, in other words, is (in the RPG context) more examples of post-modernist idiocy and shallow political correctness run amok, which ignores the central purpose of the RPG game.

RPGPundit

I appreciate your passion, but is there a recent reason?
Or is it general prevention of bullshiting?

Hmm, the Wikipedia "Orientalism" page has a link to "Veil fetishism". I heart the Internet.

It sounds like Pundit's been off reading wierd posts on RPGnet again.  A lot of that sort of overanalysis of cultural references tended to go on there, especially back when Amado G was involved.

Me I can't say as I've often been confronted with much in an RPG that was genuinely racially offensive regarding Asian cultures.  Inaccurate or romanticized sure, or spun wholly from myth even, but that doesn't really bother me that much.  I guess it just feels like the intentions are good, even if the application is a bit misguided.

Now, shit like the oWoD Gypsies book, or the constant bigotry towards Christian religion and the scientific community in the WoD series, that shit pisses me the fuck off, because there's definitely a line crossed there into negativity and slander.

Quote from: J ArcaneIt sounds like Pundit's been off reading wierd posts on RPGnet again.  A lot of that sort of overanalysis of cultural references tended to go on there, especially back when Amado G was involved.

Me I can't say as I've often been confronted with much in an RPG that was genuinely racially offensive regarding Asian cultures.  Inaccurate or romanticized sure, or spun wholly from myth even, but that doesn't really bother me that much.  I guess it just feels like the intentions are good, even if the application is a bit misguided.

Now, shit like the oWoD Gypsies book, or the constant bigotry towards Christian religion and the scientific community in the WoD series, that shit pisses me the fuck off, because there's definitely a line crossed there into negativity and slander.

I think this is the point; we can all agree that the blatant racism of the sort in the Gypsies book is utterly unacceptable.

But the question is whether there's anything inherently wrong with a fantasy setting version of China or India, ie. "Oriental Adventures", being based on the romanticized ideal of "the orient" as opposed to anything resembling reality.

My argument is that there is not, especially considering that the overwhelming majority of our fantasy worlds based on europe are ALSO based on fantasized romanticized ideas about what old europe was like.

RPGPundit

From the point of view of cultural theory (esp. in anthropology), Orientalism has its place, just as Marxism does.  However, it must be remembered that these theoretical perspectives are analytic tools lending a certain perspective to understanding other cultures and writings about other cultures, and not totalizing perspectives that can explain every aspect of a culture or the relationships between cultures.  However, any theoretical perspective can be taken to the point of absurdity, leading to the philosophical dead end of extreme postmodern philosophy, where any culture is incomprehensible.

In a more restricted mode, the deconstructionist argument becomes that a culture other than one's own can be understood, but not in the same way that a native of that culture understands it.  And that the author of any work describing another culture is not transparent.  The author's preconceptions must be taken into account, and descriptions of any culture must be read with an awareness of how the author may be misunderstanding it.

Back to the topic of RPGs, however.  Anybody who thinks Orientalism should be applied to an RPG is taking the game too fucking seriously.  No rpg is ever going to be an accurate representation of a culture.  Every rpg representation of any culture will be a sweeping generalization that obscures details.  I won't even go into the conceptual morass that goes into even defining a specific culture, or drawing boundaries around what belongs to one culture and what belongs to another.

An RPG representation will never have the depth of a real culture (especially while the world-building knobs continue to chant their mantras that fantasy religions and cultures need to be internally consistent), nor should it.  If I'm running a game which includes even a fictionalized version of an Australian Aboriginal culture, I may borrow certain ideas or concepts, but I wouldn't dream of trying to run the entire game without using any verb tenses so that I could more accurately represent Dreamtime.  

The representations in an RPG can be blatantly offensive (KKK: the Gathering), but invoking the fact that the representation is not accurate is missing the point of playing an RPG, and makes about as much sense as complaining that Monopoly does not accurately represent SEC regulations.

We use generalizations and stereotypes and cliches in RPGs not because they pretend to illuminate or are gateways to the Truth of how other people live or think, but because they're enjoyable to play.  Thinking of them otherwise is, quite frankly, fucking retarded.

On RPGpundit's side-topic of the use of self-romanticised sources, try reading James Clavell's Shogun and Eiji Yoshikawa's Musashi back to back.  Both novels are romanticized views of the same period in Japanese history, but the focus is drastically different.  Shogun romanticizes the culture as the exotic mystery of the Other, while Yoshikawa's romanticizes the period as a defining time of Japanese identity and culture.  Which version is a more accurate representation really only matters in how the representation will be used.  For an academic dissertation, the representation matters.  For an RPG, it doesn't.

Hmm, it's a touchy subject.

On the one hand, there's a lot of good material to be mined from, as Pundit notes, romantic myths and versions of a culture.  Deadlands treated Native American customs and beliefs with more fairness and respect than I've yet seen, yet you still had the opportunity to play magic-slinging shaman and braves on the warpath.

But they mined the actual customs, rituals, and myths of the plains indians to get there.  Which is a far cry from the fu manchu chinaman petting a sinuous dragon in an opium den with a little toy hat.

It all amounts to respect.  Whether you're paying it to the culture as you mine into it for awesome gaming, or whether you run roughshod over it with callous disregard for an entire ethniticity.

Quote from: RPGPunditNow that we have that out of the way, the question is, regarding "orientalism" in the sense of "prejudices about the east", is it even a bad thing in an RPG?

Depends. Whether it's the good prejudice or the bad prejudice. Because you know being romanticized is way easier to handle than being demonized.

Unless the game in question prides itself on being authentic - which I suppose, translates to giving a nuanced overview of the culture in question - I think that most games are just flights of fantasy, and should be treated as such.

Sure individual gamers and designers may inject some substance into their games, that's good too, but overall most rpgs should not be exposed to the often times abstract academic scrutiny, other media are exposed to.

QuoteI mean, in my historical Three Kingdoms RPG I'm obviously taking great care to try my hardest to represent the realities of Chinese culture from that era, without any of the romantic notions westerners hold about ancient China (which is why I take such offense at the Deconstructionists' arguments; I know that eastern cultures can be understood because I've fucking DONE it).  

(Emphasis mine) :teehee:

Ok so lets take a European fantasy Medieval RPG: Does it romanticise the west? Say Ars Magica? High Medieval? Likely it does! Because they are fantasy games, and the real world negative things of those locations during the era the games are set in create a barrier to interesting fantasy play. Now if you are doing historical accurate, then the fantasy aspects (romanticism or not) is an issue to address.

However on about the use of a katana in a modern special ops game--probably is a case of Orientiliphilia/ism. A katana is a sword---some were good, some were not--of course the good ones survived longer but they aren't uber-special weapons that can cut tanks in half. (Nor are they innately superior by reason of name and design than other swords)

All I want to know is if in RPGPundit's campaign I can play a lesbianstripperninja.

Quote from: JimBobOzAll I want to know is if in RPGPundit's campaign I can play a lesbianstripperninja.

Yes. I think so, but it must be a romanticized version. Unless you are playing in my campaign. Then I want a little more nuance.

Regards,
David R

Where's this Orient place, then?

Quote from: the BromgrevWhere's this Orient place, then?

Over there of course.

I don't do subtle or nuanced in my games.  If I run a game set in Japan it will feature ninjas and katanas and geishas and sumo wrestlers and sushi.  But if I run a game set in the Old West it would feature gunslingers and shotguns and painted jezebels and big guys named Hoss and whisky.  No big whup.

Quote from: jrientsI don't do subtle or nuanced in my games.  If I run a game set in Japan it will feature ninjas and katanas and geishas and sumo wrestlers and sushi.  But if I run a game set in the Old West it would feature gunslingers and shotguns and painted jezebels and big guys named Hoss and whisky.  No big whup.

Ditto.

Keep the fun bits, discard the remainder, stir briskly, serve entertainment while still warm.