They had the Rules Compendium, and Heroes of the Fallen Land available at my local bookstore...

Really liked the digest sized books, the clearly readable fonts, and the layout.

+1 for actually having a table of contents.

Some additional observations...

Character progression is very fast from levels 1-10 for all character classes. All the core classes were represented though. With Essentials, you'll hit level 10 by gaining around 20,000 experience points. With original D&D that's gets you a 5th level character.

A 10th level mage only has nine spells that they can cast each day. 3 of these spells are per encounter. 3 can be cast once daily, and 3 are Utility, whatever that means (Can't be used for combat?). Mages must have magic items for sustained campaigns to stay on par with other classes.

At every level, the character receives either a class power, or an attribute bump. Attribute bumps are inline with 0D&D and occur (with fighters at least) at 4th,and 8th level, I would presume that continues up to 20 just like with original D&D.

With Rules Compendium, skills have been further refined resulting in even fewer skills that cover a broader spectrum of tasks. The emphasis remains focused on combat, and that emphasis is only enhanced with this version.

In summary, looks like a fastplay version of 4e. The notation on BAB for attacks was cryptic (1w + Str Mod)(2w +Str Mod) at 20th level, and in the short time that I looked it over, I couldn't determine to hit values for any character over 1st level. There were no notes with the character classes on how combat actually worked so it appeared confusing and would require rooting around in the book some to figure out how this works.

The focus away from roleplaying and the continued fragmentation  or modularization of character classes makes this a no-buy book for me.

Quote from: GameDaddy;456369The notation on BAB for attacks was cryptic (1w + Str Mod)(2w +Str Mod) at 20th level, and in the short time that I looked it over, I couldn't determine to hit values for any character over 1st level.

Quick correction: those weird figures you mention aren't BAB values; they're damage values.  The W stands for Weapon, so 2w+Str mod would mean 2d8 + str if you were using, say, a longsword.

Overall I like the organization and feel of the Essentials books more than the regular 4E hardbacks, but I still think the rules are too "wordy" somehow. I have the Essentials books side-by-side with my OD&D boxed set and just can't believe the difference in page-count between the two.

Quote from: GameDaddy;456369In summary, looks like a fastplay version of 4e. The notation on BAB for attacks was cryptic (1w + Str Mod)(2w +Str Mod) at 20th level, and in the short time that I looked it over, I couldn't determine to hit values for any character over 1st level.

QuoteThat's because you're looking at the wrong line. That's damage. The to-hit value is listed as "stat vs. defense".

QuoteThere were no notes with the character classes on how combat actually worked so it appeared confusing and would require rooting around in the book some to figure out how this works.

Are you actually complaining that you'd have to read the book to learn how to play?

QuoteThe focus away from roleplaying and the continued fragmentation  or modularization of character classes makes this a no-buy book for me.

Roleplaying is a function of the players, not the game. Hate to break that to you.

Quote from: GameDaddy;456369They had the Rules Compendium, and Heroes of the Fallen Land available at my local bookstore...
 
Really liked the digest sized books, the clearly readable fonts, and the layout.

Yeah, that's the biggest reason I'd consider getting them. I really like the form factor.
 

QuoteA 10th level mage only has nine spells that they can cast each day. 3 of these spells are per encounter. 3 can be cast once daily, and 3 are Utility, whatever that means (Can't be used for combat?). Mages must have magic items for sustained campaigns to stay on par with other classes.

Utility from what I've seen are spells that are useful but don't actualy do damage. Stuff like dimension door, non-combat healing, magical lights and that sort of thing.
 

QuoteIn summary, looks like a fastplay version of 4e. The notation on BAB for attacks was cryptic (1w + Str Mod)(2w +Str Mod) at 20th level, and in the short time that I looked it over, I couldn't determine to hit values for any character over 1st level. There were no notes with the character classes on how combat actually worked so it appeared confusing and would require rooting around in the book some to figure out how this works.
 
The focus away from roleplaying and the continued fragmentation or modularization of character classes makes this a no-buy book for me.

4e compendium is a no-buy for me too. But I think you may be judging the modularization too harshly. Although it's true that 4e is super modularized, I can tell that someone with a clue has clustered those bits to achieve the same sort of distinction of class that say, 3.x or Pathfinder has. I prefer Pathfinder's approach of simply putting the distinctness in each class writeup but the equivalent is hidden in 4e as well.
 
Although old school roleplaying is definitely missing from 4e, the younger folks I play with don't miss it at all. If anything they think that preference to carry torches, rope, shovels and rations is a bizzare activity that distracts from their prefered style of play.

Quote from: finarvyn;456388Overall I like the organization and feel of the Essentials books more than the regular 4E hardbacks, but I still think the rules are too "wordy" somehow. I have the Essentials books side-by-side with my OD&D boxed set and just can't believe the difference in page-count between the two.

I'm a schoolteacher, and I offered to run a D&D club at the school next year. We could debate this if people want, but if I'm going to do a club for kids, I honestly can't find a compelling reason not to use the current version of the one clearly dominant game. I figured I'd teach the kids to run Encounters scenarios for each other, so I won't have a huge load of extra gamer homework every week. So I went and picked up the Rules Compendium so I could do Encounters over the summer and figure out my teaching strategy.

In Essentials, I saw all the 4th ed stuff I don't like, but with the better layout and whatnot, it was a little easier to put my finger on just what that was. It's that "wordiness." Not that I expect an electric prose style from the books. It's that persnickitiness I don't like. The compression of the rules into formalized lists of words, each of which must be precisely defned and explained.

Now--on one hand, I admire the work it took to do this. On the other, the specific, interlocking terminology locks the game into just what it is. It reads like an endless legal document. Or, of course, like the text on a Magic card. And I'm an old grognardy diy guy that finds that pretty unappealing.

The kids may love it. If they do, I bet that gets me a little more fired up. I've always liked this game because it was fun. And I'm sure not going to get sucked into edition warring. I wanted to respond to the "wordiness," though, because that's my specific complaint as well.

I've played 4th edition maybe 6 times for one mini-campaign. I created my character using the Red Box, which I thought was actually a really good way for a new player to get started (hadn't played DnD since around 1998 - 2nd edition, yo).

After finishing the Red Box adventures we started on the Fallen Lands stuff. We had the regular Players Guide and the Essentials stuff to work with... None of us had any idea what the difference was until we started converting our Red Box characters. The attacks and feats were all different between "regular" DnD and Essentials and for whatever reason, Rituals do not exist in Essentials.

It was pretty fun, overall. However, in terms of role playing, I'm more of an imagination-type, then a put-everything-on-the-board-with-a-mini-type.

I won't buy Essentials, but I would certainly play the shit out of it again. I think I got my character up to 4th or 5th level by the time we took the Iron Keep (he was a Human Fighter).

For the record, Mages have 15 Spells at tenth level - three cantrips and three at-will attack spells are gained at first level, they're just not in the Spellbook because they can be cast as many times a day as you like (one big difference between 4e and previous editions).

This comment - "With Essentials, you'll hit level 10 by gaining around 20,000 experience points" makes no sense to me - it's like describing an amp that goes to eleven.  Neither 1 xp nor 1 level have any standard meaning, and there is no reason to assume any correspondence in these values between 4e and previous editions.

Despite my quibbles, I appreciate the review - it's an interesting perspective, written well.

Quote from: Malleus Arianorum;456409Yeah, that's the biggest reason I'd consider getting them. I really like the form factor.

I'm interested in hearing more about people's preference for digest books.

I like them for reading, but find them to be a real pain at the game table (since they won't stay open on their own). I guess if I played more, I'd find them great. But I DM a lot, and when I DM it's not unusual for me to have three or four books open all at the same time.

But I'd like to hear other people's thoughts on this.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;456494I'm interested in hearing more about people's preference for digest books.

I like them for reading, but find them to be a real pain at the game table (since they won't stay open on their own). I guess if I played more, I'd find them great. But I DM a lot, and when I DM it's not unusual for me to have three or four books open all at the same time.

But I'd like to hear other people's thoughts on this.

In 4e, I think the assumption is that you won't be looking things up in the book that often, especially on the player's side.  The working assumption seems to be that you're have all your powerz at your fingertips via the cards that print out with your character sheet if you used the Character Builder.

For the DM, however, it might be more of a pain in the ass.  Yes, you could have the monster stats printed out in front of you, but to make game rulings will likely require some book look-ups once in a while, at least.

I used to be a big fan of hardbacks until my grandfather-in-law talked up his leather bound soft cover bible. He showed me how easy it is to read from in one hand, and how much more comfortable it is to carry it around in a pocket.
 
D&D essentials fail to achieve the same form factor as his leatherbound bible, but in theory I could see myself holding an essentials book open in one hand, thus saving myself alot of table space that I realisticaly never have.
 
Likewise the smaller print and easy to read font isn't as compact as a bible, but it's a bit more efficent than the L E A R N T O R E A D ! S P A C E W O R D W R A P
 

 
 
 
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around a picture shenanigans that I have to put up with in other books.
 
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#P A G E 4 9#
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Infontile jokes aside, I'm also a big fan of Games Workshop's miniature rule books that they sell with starter kits. Because honestly if I've got an empty spot on my side of the gametable big enough for a full sized Warhammer 40k rulebook I'm doing something wrong!

I was put off a little when 4e first came out.  I'm not one of those "iz not D&D!" fools, I just wasn't sure what they were going for with it.  Since 4e first came out, it seems they have improved a lot with their initial design choices, and have cemented a more concrete environment.  I'm finding the Essentials line a very welcome new entry point into 4e now that it seems to me like it has "hit its stride".

As for BAB:  in 4e all characters get a bonus to their attack rolls (and skill rolls and defenses) equal to half their level.  Characters can get additional bonuses to those things from feats, equipment and class features (Fighter gets +1 to attack rolls, for instance).

Quote from: Justin Alexander;456494I'm interested in hearing more about people's preference for digest books.

I like them for reading, but find them to be a real pain at the game table (since they won't stay open on their own).

I only ever owned the Essentials DM Kit (which I gave away after reviewing), but the DM book stayed open, if not perfectly flat. My impression is that's because it uses a much, much heavier binding (and heavier exterior covers) than both Heroes of Books - and I have no trouble believing that they don't stay open.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;456494But I DM a lot, and when I DM it's not unusual for me to have three or four books open all at the same time.

But I'd like to hear other people's thoughts on this.

From a player's perspective, I'd say the Heroes books are super convenient and well organized (thanks for the overlap, WotC). Grok the combat rules, your 20-30 pages of your class, and you're home.

From a DM's perspective, I share your pain. The Compendium promised to get us all the rules in one book, but it doesn't. Skill challenges? DM book. Char gen? Heroes of books. Items list? Not ... anywhere. It's one huge fragmented mess.

On the whole, though, I still don't understand why people wouldn't shell out the few dollars more for a beautiful hardback, which contains more, and stays open at the table, so you can reference your powers a lot easier during play. Plus, it's not as if the Essentials books had any of the charm that the Whitebox S&W booklets have. They're still hefty, and they are - surprise suprise - a lot wordier than the original hardbacks, because WotC now has a lot more flavour text to go with every power, but had to remove a lot of artwork in the process. What's so terribly appealing about that I honestly don't know.

Ah, forgot - if there's one redeeming feature, it's the deletion of dragonborn and tiefling in the main player book.