I've noticed that role-playing games who release their rules online and make them freely available don't really seem to suffer from piracy issues. Furthermore, it appears that these small independent role-playing game publication houses enjoy a lot of feedback and support from the community.

I've seen several Kickstart projects launch and propose to release all of their rules (minus the flavor text) free for use. Lamentations of the Flame Princess comes to mind. The "grindhouse" edition is pretty ugly, but at least it covers the major rules. They weren't the first to do it, but I have noticed a very rapid (and rabid) support community advocating in support of open gaming licenses for indie games. I personally like the "try before you buy" stuff. But some people may be of a different opinion.

As a consumer, are you driven to purchase systems that freely offer their rules online?

So long as the rules arent a pile of shite and the publishers/writers arent completly delusional about the system and willing to accept feedback about why said rules are a pile of shite(so if it was any good in other words) then sure i'd buy a printed copy if it was also available Open Source, afterall you cant really read a .pdf on the bog

I prefer rules systems that are open whether by OGL or Creative Commons style methods because I know that if I make something useful for my players I can easily post it online for others to use. For example, if I make a condensed/quick start version of the rules, I could put it up for other groups without worrying about the publisher being angry.

I like the model. It has served Posthuman Studios well with Eclipse Phase. If I like your game I will buy it! I love Stars Without Number and have purchased the Mongoose PDF, Other Dust, and other supplements. After reading the free PDF!

I also think that having the system (perhaps in a standard image free layout) PDF for free before pitching a Kickstarter is a great way to prove the writing is complete. :-D

In a similar fashion, GURPS lite has been a nice way to introduce looky-loos to the system. Every publisher should have a lite and/or free version of their stuff. I think it improves that publishers paying customer base.

Just my two cents...

OGL, Creative Commons and "Freely Available" are entirely different from each other.

Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;566878As a consumer, are you driven to purchase systems that freely offer their rules online?

I do not in the main buy things without reading them first, and in these days of not having a rog shop within an hours commute, that means 99% of my purchases must be well previewed on the internet.

The plan for Hulks and Horrors is that provided it funds, I'll be releasing a rules-only, fluff and art free "SRD" under Creative Commons after the book releases.  

I figure this way I can open it up to people who want to work on it, while preserving the value of owning the actual book.

Free release = huge community participation only works when there is a pre existing community of game supporters or designer supporters who pile onto it with gusto, the d20 phenomenon being the definitive example. HP Lovecraft's works would be another. There is a huge, huge list of free RPGs with zero participation and zero interest from the community, some of which are pretty decent. 1kmonkeys1ktypewriters or something is a good resource to find them.

Piracy is a serious issue but I swapped a few PMs with a guy over on rpgnet who claimed to have quashed it almost entirely for his efforts, I'll dig them out if anyone wants them. Basically it added up to active torrent poisoning and tracking, followed by direct complaints to ISPs.

With all that said I not only want to allow the community to officially build on whatevers on my stall, but I want them to profit substantially by their efforts, so it looks like a roll your own licence job. Piracy of any sort is bollocks and should not be supported implicitly or otherwise.

Quote from: The Traveller;566969Free release = huge community participation only works when there is a pre existing community of game supporters or designer supporters who pile onto it with gusto...

Not always. I would say Eclipse Phase was successful and didn't have an existing community behind it until it released. Also, if you want to build a community you have to start somewhere. Getting your core product out there for free couldn't hurt. People will check it out, and buy it and other products based on the quality. This is exactly what roped me into Stars Without Number, et al.; another example that refutes your assertion.

Quote from: The Traveller;566969...With all that said I not only want to allow the community to officially build on whatevers on my stall, but I want them to profit substantially by their efforts, so it looks like a roll your own licence job. ...

Why reinvent the wheel? The OGL can be co-opted to work with any system (see D6, FATE, FUDGE...) or a Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported (http://creativecommons.org/choose/) would work great as well. This allows publishers to use and modify your works and share them for profit or free as long as they attribute you and share the work under the same CC license.

Quote from: The Traveller;566969... Basically it added up to active torrent poisoning and tracking, followed by direct complaints to ISPs. ...

Way too much effort for so little return. Why? Concentrate on your paying customers and the fan community around your products. Pirates are going to steal your shit anyways and they WILL find ways around your shenanigans.

Again, look at how Posthuman Studios handled this. They seed all their books on torrent sites and give them away. For free. Is this affecting sales? Nope. They are making record sales in both PDF and print runs. Your supporters will pay for your material! There are many posters around the InterTubes who have admitted downloading an Eclipse Phase product and then later purchasing it because of the high quality and how much they loved it.

Don't sweat the piracy thing. If someone is feeling butt-hurt about sales, I would suggest looking at the product not the piracy. Generally, the product is lacking or has a limited focus or appeal vs. "OMFG I could be making thousands right now if only ALL PIRATES DIE!!!".

So far the most successful people selling small print products (IMHO) are creators who have a serious PASSION for their own work. Both Eclipse Phase and SWN have creators who say things like "I do this for the love of it" or "I wanted to create something I would use and feel proud of", or to that effect. I think fellow gamers dig that kind of passion. The products end up kicking ass because they are focused on something besides commercial viability. What's hilarious is that they end up being MORE commercially viable.

Just my two cents...

Quote from: trechriron;567013Not always. I would say Eclipse Phase was successful and didn't have an existing community behind it until it released.

That's why I mentioned designers as well, the guys responsible for it are well known in the community.

Quote from: trechriron;567013Why reinvent the wheel? The OGL can be co-opted to work with any system (see D6, FATE, FUDGE...) or a Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported (http://creativecommons.org/choose/) would work great as well. This allows publishers to use and modify your works and share them for profit or free as long as they attribute you and share the work under the same CC license.

Thanks, I'll use something along those lines.

Quote from: trechriron;567013Way too much effort for so little return. Why?

Lets say you're Lionsgate, you just released Lord of the Rings. Its not worth your time to hunt down every seeder, and in any case they aren't really substantially hitting your bottom line. You might pay the lawyers to go after them as an aggregate, but thats more the principle of the thing.

A teeny tiny one man publisher can have their bottom line substantially damaged by piracy, when a couple of thousand makes the difference between a loss and a profit. Plus, its his shit, why not.

Quote from: trechriron;567013Concentrate on your paying customers and the fan community around your products. Pirates are going to steal your shit anyways and they WILL find ways around your shenanigans.

Sure, but the damage can be minimised. He said that he got them all eventually except for the collections, and the only reason he didn't get them was because he wasn't willing to pirate other works to protect his own. I checked it out and he does appear to have been successful. Again scale is what matters here, his RPG was so small that it was possible for him to combat piracy successfully.

Quote from: trechriron;567013Again, look at how Posthuman Studios handled this. They seed all their books on torrent sites and give them away. For free.

I did ask them directly whether or not they would have opened it up if it wasn't for piracy, and the response was "that would have to be discussed", but the subscript was "probably not".

Quote from: trechriron;567013Is this affecting sales? Nope. They are making record sales in both PDF and print runs. Your supporters will pay for your material! There are many posters around the InterTubes who have admitted downloading an Eclipse Phase product and then later purchasing it because of the high quality and how much they loved it.

Couple of things here - unless we have access to a parallel universe where they didn't release it openly, its impossible to say what effect it had on sales. The other issue is that while it might work for someone once, making a regular or industry wide thing of it causes the novelty to fade somewhat. Then you're into people downloading things they might only have a vague interest in, or might be only interested in one part of.

Quote from: trechriron;567013Don't sweat the piracy thing. If someone is feeling butt-hurt about sales, I would suggest looking at the product not the piracy. Generally, the product is lacking or has a limited focus or appeal vs. "OMFG I could be making thousands right now if only ALL PIRATES DIE!!!".

Im not really bothered by it, if I met someone in the street and they tell me they pirate, it doesn't affect my opinion of them because piracy is so widespread. Its not much of a reflection on personal character in that way. As an aggregate however I see no problem with combating piracy, pirates are not on the side of the good guys.

With that said copyrights are far too long, if they were reduced to 12 years plus an optional 12 extension, I'd be quite happy.

Quote from: trechriron;567013So far the most successful people selling small print products (IMHO) are creators who have a serious PASSION for their own work. Both Eclipse Phase and SWN have creators who say things like "I do this for the love of it" or "I wanted to create something I would use and feel proud of", or to that effect. I think fellow gamers dig that kind of passion. The products end up kicking ass because they are focused on something besides commercial viability. What's hilarious is that they end up being MORE commercially viable.

See above - keep in mind that many people feel they may as well release their hard work for free purely and simply because of being an easy target of opportunity for piracy, being passionate about your work doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't earn money from other people enjoying it. The one thing has nothing to do with the other.

Yes, I've bought several games that I could have just downloaded the rules for free.  If I actually want to play a game, I much prefer having a real book.

Oh and once again, free release is no passport whatsoever to popularity. There are more free RPGs out there than one person could legitimately read in ten years, ranging from notepad page to insanely professional. Only one in ten thousand of those ever gets popular, and its usually not because of the fact that its free.

Quote from: trechriron;567013Don't sweat the piracy thing. If someone is feeling butt-hurt about sales, I would suggest looking at the product not the piracy. Generally, the product is lacking or has a limited focus or appeal vs. "OMFG I could be making thousands right now if only ALL PIRATES DIE!!!".

The market for indie produced tabletop RPG products is pretty small. I recently attended a round table discussion of publishers at PaizoCon where this was discussed, and having target sales maxing out at around 2,000 (which hundreds being the usual) is quite good.

A product lacking in focus or appeal probably won't sell many copies, but that doesn't mean you are not losing significant numbers of sales from piracy. That's probably increasing as well, since more and more people are fine with PDF (e-readable) products instead of print.

There are plenty of people who self-justify taking a small ticket item for any number of reasons - for example:

1. Its really not very good and not worth what they are asking for it.
2. I am not going to use it very much, so there's no reason to pay money for it.
3. I cannot afford it, but I want it anyway.
4. Its okay to take it because the authors aren't getting justly rewarded.
5. I am sticking it to Corporate (insert nation), so its a political statement.
6. Information should be free, and copyright law is hogwash.
7. Its really so cheap, nobody will care or notice if I take it.

Plenty of others. Same excuses since floppies were still floppy, all of which are the excuses of self-centered, morally  weak people. Small crimes of mobs of small people. Some people will commit all sorts of crimes if they know they can get away with it, and piracy is an easy crime to get away with.

My wife and I check out probably thousands of dollars worth of books from our local libraries every year. I'm just glad libraries existed in society long before the copyright police brigade got started. Otherwise you'd hear all these online complaints about the criminals checking out books and reading them without paying for them. Ruining the business those entitled patrons are!

Quote from: ptingler;567296My wife and I check out probably thousands of dollars worth of books from our local libraries every year. I'm just glad libraries existed in society long before the copyright police brigade got started. Otherwise you'd hear all these online complaints about the criminals checking out books and reading them without paying for them. Ruining the business those entitled patrons are!

Cool library you've got there, they post out a copy of any book for anyone in the world to keep for free while giving them the power to do the exact same thing?

You should show your appreciation by working your ass off for six months of your life and spending thousands of dollars you don't really have to spare in creating something, then giving it to that library so anyone who wants to can enjoy your efforts in a similar fashion.