Quote from: The Game Guy;279165You will excuse me if I don't really am not concerned that some internet poster takes a shot as Hellsreach's business credibility.  I know that most posters on message forums are experts at business, but Hellsreach knows what he is doing.

I have to be honest with you, when he was selling WEG he had gotten an offer for a decent amount of money (I am not going to say how much) but hoenstly, I told him to take it.   He could easily have taken that money and started a company that actually made money.  RPG companies make little to almost no real money.  The majority of which are done on the side, while the people who run them work real jobs to make money.

He sold a very successful business so he could get the money together to buy and try to revive a company that he loves.  And what is his reward?  A bunch of internet posters shitting on him for it.

So, the chain of your logic goes a little like this:

- Eric sells a successful company that made him money in an industry that he's experienced in to buy an unsuccessful company that he loves in an industry he lacks experience in.

- Eric attempts to make WEG successful again, convinced that he can succeed where game industry professionals have failed.

- Eric remortgages his house and goes up to the arse in debt trying to make this work.

- Eric takes preorders for a product. The product does not materialise. The preorder money has been spent and Eric has to scramble around to raise the funds to make good on his debts.

- Somebody comes along and offers to give Eric enough money to get out of the hole he's dug himself. Eric spurns them, convinced that despite everything he can get WEG back on the right track.

- You and Eric react with shock and surprise when people suggest that Eric might be prone to making bad business decisions.

:rolleyes:

QuoteI can see why he got frustrated and had the blowout on rpg.net.  Myself, and others in his group have finally convinced him to do what he needs to do and ignore internet posters.

If even half the things he said in the course of the blowout were true, "what he needs to do" is to have sold the company when he had the chance, as you advised him to. It's never nice to suggest that someone should give up their dream and trust somebody else to take over a project they've spent a lot of time, blood, sweat, and tears on, but the dude has a wife and a family, and with that comes certain financial responsibilities.

QuoteI commend him for wanting to run a rpg company.  I wouldn't do it because starting one you might as well pile your money in pile and light it on fire.  I doubt with the way things are going that there will even be an RPG industry in 5 years.  If there still is, there won't be too many game companies left.

The industry has been scheduled to die in "about 5 years" since well before I got into gaming. There's always new games, new talent, new publishers to fill the gap. People can make it work - look at Matt Sprange at Mongoose, look at Chris Pramas at Green Ronin - but it's a gamble. And the responsible thing to do, when you have lost a gamble, is not keep betting on it until you lose your house.

Put it this way: as you point out, making enough money to live on from the RPG industry is crazy-difficult, and trying to run a game company is a gamble. If Eric were tossing away his savings on the roulette wheel, would you still say he was doing a brave and noble thing, or would there come a point where you'd say to him "look, dude, enough is enough"?

Quote from: The Game Guy;279357Yes, the SRD is being released prior to the website being available so people will be able to get started ahead of time (at least that is how he explained it).

Released or people can start using it before the website gets released? Because if everything has to go on the website, how could folks use the SRD before that's up? They could look at it, I suppose...

Quote from: The Game Guy;279358Or perhaps he was just pasionate to get WEG revived.

Passion is a good thing. But there comes a point where business acumen - and even common sense - trump passion.

Quote from: The Game Guy;279358Of course the way people have crapped on him you are probably right, he should have kept doign what he was doing and let WEG stay dead.

What does it matter how people crapped on him? Personally, I think he deserved it - he took people's money, didn't communicate with them about their refunds, and was damn slow in getting those refunds back to them. Personally, I think the big hullabaloo on RPGnet had a large part to do with actually getting them refunds at all...

Quote from: The Game Guy;279358Because all he and other game companys get is crapped on when they do something the geeks don't think is right.   But that's part of the big problem with the hobby and why the hobby has the problems it has now.

But that's how the world works. Is Gibson supposed to be magically exempt from criticism and being crapped on.

That aside, as I said above, it's not as if he's blameless and people's periods all somehow synced up and they went on a rampage.

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;279458Released or people can start using it before the website gets released? Because if everything has to go on the website, how could folks use the SRD before that's up? They could look at it, I suppose...

Well, if he proceeds as he has told me you would be able to use the SRD but not the TM License that went with it. Also, he is talking about the site hosting the submissions as text initially until the system comes on line.

To address what folks have been saying about "just throwing the SRD" out there...well, it is not that easy. My ISCR (essentially an SRD for my Iridium system) took over a year to get right. Why? First because the rules were spread through several core rules and I had to make sure they were standardized in a manner that allowed the ISCR to work with all versions. Second, I had to make sure that what I put in there was what I wanted open. Finally, there is production. All this takes time. Eric has it worse because he made (IMO) the initial mistake of splitting his rules set into Adventure, etc.

Personally, I am not hung up on it. It will come when it does. Until then, I will wait for the license, run it past my lawyer to make sure nothing hinky is going on, and then get to work on some conversions.

Quote from: Warthur;279395This is precisely what concerns me about the situation. D6 could go open tomorrow if Eric just issued a version of the OGL to the effect of "the text in the D6 Space/Fantasy/whatever rulebooks are now and forevermore Open Gaming Content". Presto, within a week fans will have transcribed the text to the interwebs and you've got your SRDs into distribution, and the fanbase can get cracking on improving and integrating them: D6 is preserved forevermore as an open system, and Eric doesn't have to pay out a single dollar more.

Just wanted to cover this point.  As far as the D6 books being out there, yes, there are the rulebooks which people own and the few still remaining in the distribution chain.

Any core books that were unsold that A) Eric had on hand at his local storage warehouse (I have seen them, and there were a lot, mostly adventure do to overprinting) and B) what the fulfillment house had were pulped/destroyed in order to move onto the next phase, that phase being Open D6 and were written off.

So whatever is in the game stores, once they are gone, there are no more books.

Quote from: Warthur;279398The industry has been scheduled to die in "about 5 years" since well before I got into gaming.

Yep, except now finally game industry people are finally admitting that the hobby gamer base is shrinking.  Yes new people come into the hobby but not at the same rate as they are leaving (things like console games, MMORPGS and the like are drawing their attention away) so it's not just gamers saying it's the industry people admitting their is a problem.

And shrinking gamer pool doesnt mean the hobby is dying, it just means there are less and less gamers out there.  Sure, the old "teach people who dont know how to game to game" gets some people into the hobby but it is not enough.  There needs to be something else, something bigger done.

Quote from: Warthur;279398Put it this way: as you point out, making enough money to live on from the RPG industry is crazy-difficult, and trying to run a game company is a gamble. If Eric were tossing away his savings on the roulette wheel, would you still say he was doing a brave and noble thing, or would there come a point where you'd say to him "look, dude, enough is enough"?

Yep, you can make it worth, and I am sure Eric can make it work.  He has a new plan which is really good and he wont make the same risks and mistakes he made before.

I wish he had sold because I got to tell you, I don't think running a game company is really worth it.  He should have given it up and actually taken the money and invested it into something that would generate real money.

I think as time goes on we are going to find less industry people and more "Gamers creating games and releasing them" because I think it's going to get to a point where more and more people see running a game company is not worth the time or money.

I mean look at Adament (SP), GMS's company.  On the rpg.net forums he said in the 4th quarter that sales were down 40%.  That's a big drop and that's a big dent to his income in a hobby where making a living wage is difficult/almost impossable.

Quote from: Seanchai;279458That aside, as I said above, it's not as if he's blameless and people's periods all somehow synced up and they went on a rampage.

Seanchai

If you have read any of the messages I have posted on the subject, either here or on rpg.net I have always said that he was at fault.  He made some mistakes and he has learned from them.

Honestly, I just gave the fuck up expecting anything of substance out of it.  It's a failing company desperately scrabbling for some new scheme to keep it alive for a few weeks longer.  I've seen it in enough restaurants now to know what it looks like when a business owner just refuses to quit because he doesn't realize he's already lost.  I just hope he doesn't bankrupt his family with it.

I put some minor effort and thought into just creating my own open system inspired by the original WEG games, but ultimately just said fuck it to that too and decided I'd have more fun focusing on Dark Heresy.

Quote from: The Game Guy;279502Just wanted to cover this point.  As far as the D6 books being out there, yes, there are the rulebooks which people own and the few still remaining in the distribution chain.

Any core books that were unsold that A) Eric had on hand at his local storage warehouse (I have seen them, and there were a lot, mostly adventure do to overprinting) and B) what the fulfillment house had were pulped/destroyed in order to move onto the next phase, that phase being Open D6 and were written off.

So whatever is in the game stores, once they are gone, there are no more books.

This is interesting but does not seem relevant. Eric doesn't need to be physically holding the books in his hand to say "the text in there is Open Game Content", and then it's just a matter of waiting for those fans who do possess copies of the relevant books to transcribe and distribute the text. Presto! You have "version 0.1" versions of a space SRD, an adventure SRD, a fantasy SRD... you still have the work of making a unified SRD and putting up the website, but at least a) the system will have become open at that point, so if the more ambitious project falls to bits a fan-driven project might be able to pick up the pieces, and b) you'll give the thing some exposure beyond the little corner of the internet that's still following this sorry saga.

Quote from: The Game Guy;279503Yep, except now finally game industry people are finally admitting that the hobby gamer base is shrinking.  Yes new people come into the hobby but not at the same rate as they are leaving (things like console games, MMORPGS and the like are drawing their attention away) so it's not just gamers saying it's the industry people admitting their is a problem.

Yeah, I remember 1998 too.

QuoteAnd shrinking gamer pool doesnt mean the hobby is dying, it just means there are less and less gamers out there.  Sure, the old "teach people who dont know how to game to game" gets some people into the hobby but it is not enough.  There needs to be something else, something bigger done.

Maybe. But is WEG/D6 really in a position to do anything about it? Why would an potentially interested outsider really care about the fate of a system they've never played and probably never heard of?

QuoteI think as time goes on we are going to find less industry people and more "Gamers creating games and releasing them" because I think it's going to get to a point where more and more people see running a game company is not worth the time or money.

And is this necessarily a bad thing? These days you can get a pretty slick-looking and widely-distributed product as an amateur.

Quote from: J Arcane;279506Honestly, I just gave the fuck up expecting anything of substance out of it.  It's a failing company desperately scrabbling for some new scheme to keep it alive for a few weeks longer.  I've seen it in enough restaurants now to know what it looks like when a business owner just refuses to quit because he doesn't realize he's already lost.  I just hope he doesn't bankrupt his family with it.

Except it is not a failing company.  Now that he has paid off the Septimus refunds WEG has no debt.  Not to mention that he runs it out of his house, so there is no overhead.   He has some books left in his basement (some are old books that he will only be able to sell via ebay which he is planning to do) and some that are current books which can be sent to his fullfillment house to put into the distribution pipeline.

He still has money coming in from .pdfs (and he is planning to .pdf more books to bring in more money) plus is getting money fromt he distribution pipeline for the game books that sell (and the board game Junta which does very well) so its not a failing company.  Not very active, true but failing no.

But then in this economy there are a lot of companies that are just waiting for things to get better.

Quote from: Warthur;279529This is interesting but does not seem relevant. Eric doesn't need to be physically holding the books in his hand to say "the text in there is Open Game Content", and then it's just a matter of waiting for those fans who do possess copies of the relevant books to transcribe and distribute the text. Presto! You have "version 0.1" versions of a space SRD, an adventure SRD, a fantasy SRD... you still have the work of making a unified SRD and putting up the website, but at least a) the system will have become open at that point, so if the more ambitious project falls to bits a fan-driven project might be able to pick up the pieces, and b) you'll give the thing some exposure beyond the little corner of the internet that's still following this sorry saga.

He is working on a SRD but it takes time to create to get right (as Hinterwilt Mentioned).  He is working on it as well as the many other things he has going on in his life.   He is working to get things going in his life where he doesnt have as much on his plate.  But for now things are slow and steady.

Getting rid of the books was more for the point that he overprinted and while they are selling they are selling slowly.  Better to take a writeoff and destroy them.  He can get rid of a bunch of stock and work towards turning things around.

Quote from: Warthur;279530Yeah, I remember 1998 too.

Yes, except in 1998 rpgs didnt have Worlds of Warcraft and other things kicking it's ass.  There is more out there that satisfies gamers needs and quicker (getting people together for a game take a lot of work) and for time strapped people it gives them what they want when they want it.

Quote from: Warthur;279530Maybe. But is WEG/D6 really in a position to do anything about it? Why would an potentially interested outsider really care about the fate of a system they've never played and probably never heard of?

WEG isn't trying to do anything about it.  That was a different conversation.  WEG is just doing it's thing.  

Quote from: Warthur;279530And is this necessarily a bad thing? These days you can get a pretty slick-looking and widely-distributed product as an amateur.

No, it's not a bad thing.  Nor would it effect me.  I have the games I need to game for a long time.  I am even getting rid of games I don't/wont ever play that way I only have what I use left.  I can get my full money's worth and more out of the games I use.

Quote from: The Game Guy;279582Yes, except in 1998 rpgs didnt have Worlds of Warcraft and other things kicking it's ass.

No, it had Ultima Online and Magic: the Gathering doing that instead.

WoW is the latest in a long conga line of things which are Killing RPGs, but they never quite get around to finishing the hobby off... because they're not tabletop RPGs and don't try to be, and can never scratch the same itch.

Quote from: HinterWelt;279485Well, if he proceeds as he has told me you would be able to use the SRD but not the TM License that went with it.

That would be cool.

Quote from: HinterWelt;279485To address what folks have been saying about "just throwing the SRD" out there...well, it is not that easy. My ISCR (essentially an SRD for my Iridium system) took over a year to get right. Why? First because the rules were spread through several core rules and I had to make sure they were standardized in a manner that allowed the ISCR to work with all versions. Second, I had to make sure that what I put in there was what I wanted open. Finally, there is production. All this takes time. Eric has it worse because he made (IMO) the initial mistake of splitting his rules set into Adventure, etc.

I can understand that it's not as easy as just throwing up some text, but it does seem as if he's at least focusing on the cart rather than the horse, if not putting it first outright.

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;279630That would be cool.



I can understand that it's not as easy as just throwing up some text, but it does seem as if he's at least focusing on the cart rather than the horse, if not putting it first outright.

Seanchai

I think part of the problem is that we are seeing it from the outside looking in through a dirty window. It can be difficult to decide what to do in this kind of decision. Do you just put out the SRD? Then you get people used to using the OGL without the TM License and when you come out with that someone might already have a better known or stronger brand for the OpenD6 property. If you are going to put out the TM License, then you need to have the logo ready. You could come out with it before the site is ready but then you need provisions to hold the OGL material you are collecting until the site is ready or put it up in a substandard method that could get users of the system the wrong idea of where it is going.

In the end, he needs to think about what effect putting out the SRD will have to the initiative. Personally, I think I could come up with a whizbang logo in a few hours and I would put the SRD out with a TM License, collect but not display the OGL submissions and build the system for a great press release down the road. That said, it could still take a chunk of time to get the SRD in proper shape as I said in the previous post.