TheRPGSite

Sorry if this is old news (I didn't find any mention in a quick few searches here), and since TBP is "reviewing" this thread and locking it down I thought I'd share.

https://sponsoredbynobody.podbean.com/e/exalted-offtopic-a-history-of-exposure-3rd-edition/
http://imgur.com/a/aDj92 (for those who'd rather just look at the screengrabs of the Devs talking about the piss-poor treatment they got)

Yipes.  We're talking Palladium Books level dickery here.

(also amusing, what is TBP going to do when their OPP-contracted-not-employed mod staff has to decide if opening the thread bashing their employer is a good idea or not?  It's already closed there, but -not- deleted, so maybe it'll get open.)

Has any of this information been sent to Kickstarter themselves?

Quote from: jeff37923;967188Has any of this information been sent to Kickstarter themselves?

Not sure KS would (or should) care.  RichT/OPP went to KS with a project, and as far as KS is concerned the project creator could be snorting cocaine with the money.  It's when promised goals aren't delivered that things prove problematic.

"But wasn't one of those goals a pay bump?"

:)

Quote from: san dee jota;967184(also amusing, what is TBP going to do when their OPP-contracted-not-employed mod staff has to decide if opening the thread bashing their employer is a good idea or not?  It's already closed there, but -not- deleted, so maybe it'll get open.)

What they should do is tell those moderators that they are no longer allowed to moderate any topic related to OPP or their products because of the obvious conflict of interest and high potential for abuse of moderator authority involved and remove them from their moderator positions if they continue doing so.  What they are going to do is jack shit like always.

Quote from: yosemitemike;967201What they should do is tell those moderators that they are no longer allowed to moderate any topic related to OPP or their products because of the obvious conflict of interest and high potential for abuse of moderator authority involved and remove them from their moderator positions if they continue doing so.  What they are going to do is jack shit like always.

If purple mods couldn't act because of bias and conflict of interest, they would never be seen or heard - that's all they ever do, it's practically the job description.

Quote from: yosemitemike;967201What they should do is tell those moderators that they are no longer allowed to moderate any topic related to OPP or their products because of the obvious conflict of interest and high potential for abuse of moderator authority involved and remove them from their moderator positions if they continue doing so.  What they are going to do is jack shit like always.

Heh. I guess you didn't follow the Alamo Drafthouse threads.

As somebody whose name is in the credits of the 3rd edition book and who has worked with WW and OP over the years on each edition of Exalted, I'll say that I would take all of that with a grain of salt.  When OP found out I didn't have a contract because of how things were handled at a level below them, one was sent to me immediately and I was paid for all of the work I was credited with.  

As for the allegations that WW/OP pays significantly below the industry standard, that's not my experience.  The industry standard as a whole is pretty terrible.  But that gets into the whole, "Are RPGs too expensive/etc."  

 OP has always dealt with me fairly and honestly.  I also have every faith the new developers are going to run things right insofar as freelancers are concerned.  And I say this as somebody who has no plans on ever working for OP again.

What's interesting is all this criticism of OP is coming from Holden who is a moderator at RPGnet too.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;967208Heh. I guess you didn't follow the Alamo Drafthouse threads.

That doesn't mean anything to me but let me ask you a concrete question.  Has BlackHat_Matt

a)been barred from moderating in any thread involving OPP or OPP products because of the obvious conflict of interest and his long history of using his moderator authority to silence critics of OPP?

or

b) been removed from his moderator position?

If neither of these things has happened, nothing has changed.  I'm not actually sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me.

Who or what is Onyx Path?

Edit: Never mind, read the links. Shady RPG publisher. Can't say I ever heard of them or their game except in the title of a forum thread here.

I am curious about why these guys are willing to work for free.

They're the current publisher of Vampire, Werewolf, Mage and so on.

Well, the Chronicle of Darkness version of it. As soon as White Wolf (the new company) finishes their work on the new edition. OPP stops theirs. Except for the 20 year editions.

Your telling me that the lying suck of shits that tried to ruin the careers of other people got fuck over by another liar?  Oh happy days.  Oh fucking happy days!

I been telling people that Onyx Path is shit and could not produce a good game.  This is vindication to all the things I had been saying.  To all the nasty people that still works for Onyx Path and treat your fan base like shit.  Your day is coming.

Oh my...  Even David A. Hill got fuck over royally.  Is this a late birthday gift?  Should had been working on your own IPs David.  Should had never spent time in trying to ruin other people and spreading lies.  You have no sympathy from me.

Finally to Rich Thomas.  You perfect form of a utter glorious piece of pretentious shit.  What the fuck are you going to do now?  You screwed over the only allies you have and possibly destroyed your career.  You murdered your own business.  I am going to eat popcorn as you fall screaming into your own personal hell that you created.

New White Wolf.  I will be giving you a email shortly as I don't believe Onyx Path should be allowed to touch your licensees.  Give it to Goodman Games, Sine Nomine Publishing, or some company that gives a damn.

Snowman...what's your issue with David Hill? Seriously, what's the backstory here?

Quote from: Dumarest;967241Who or what is Onyx Path?

Edit: Never mind, read the links. Shady RPG publisher. Can't say I ever heard of them or their game except in the title of a forum thread here.

I am curious about why these guys are willing to work for free.

Basically they publish "Classic" editions of the old White Wolf games.

As to why people are willing to work for free, look at all the old D&D stuff made for OSR. Much of that is just hobbyists doing it for free (or sometimes at a loss). If some company were somehow granted the rights to AD&D and OD&D and wanted to recruit OSR people to produce "official" new old modules and such, I'm sure they would have legions of volunteers. Same case for the old White Wolf games, they have tons of devoted fans.

Quote from: Mostlyjoe;967277Snowman...what's your issue with David Hill? Seriously, what's the backstory here?

What accusing innocent people of being sexists, misogynists, and transphobic in a attempt to ruin their careers isn't good enough reason to hate David A. Hill?  These freelancers of Onyx Path are not good people and tried to screw over other people.

However, your right there is a backstory.  David and I used to be some what friends.  Hell we had chats about what should be done about the Chronicles of Darkness before it became known as the Chronicles of Darkness.  Good conversations on what the system should be like.  Hell I even bought some of his games from his own publishing.

Then came Anita Sarkeeisan.  Oh at first the con artist trick me, but thank god I was broke.  Oh god I was so morally outraged and fucking stupid back then.  Point was I found out eventually that she was a shady bitch and tried to warn David about it because that is what friends do.  

What did I get for my trouble?  The entire David A. Hill cult pretty much dog piled me and David just let them do it.  He stated he is a friend with Anita and just let them chase me out.  Pretty much found out the hard way that David was no friend.  So at that point I became very aware at the lies and bullshit David can pull because he did it to me.

Quote from: Snowman0147;967283What accusing innocent people of being sexists, misogynists, and transphobic in a attempt to ruin their careers isn't good enough reason to hate David A. Hill?  These freelancers of Onyx Path are not good people and tried to screw over other people.

However, your right there is a backstory.  David and I used to be some what friends.  Hell we had chats about what should be done about the Chronicles of Darkness before it became known as the Chronicles of Darkness.  Good conversations on what the system should be like.  Hell I even bought some of his games from his own publishing.

Then came Anita Sarkeeisan.  Oh at first the con artist trick me, but thank god I was broke.  Oh god I was so morally outraged and fucking stupid back then.  Point was I found out eventually that she was a shady bitch and tried to warn David about it because that is what friends do.  

What did I get for my trouble?  The entire David A. Hill cult pretty much dog piled me and David just let them do it.  He stated he is a friend with Anita and just let them chase me out.  Pretty much found out the hard way that David was no friend.  So at that point I became very aware at the lies and bullshit David can pull because he did it to me.

Wow. An actual origin story. I don't have one of those.

Quote from: JeremyR;967281As to why people are willing to work for free, look at all the old D&D stuff made for OSR. Much of that is just hobbyists doing it for free (or sometimes at a loss). If some company were somehow granted the rights to AD&D and OD&D and wanted to recruit OSR people to produce "official" new old modules and such, I'm sure they would have legions of volunteers. Same case for the old White Wolf games, they have tons of devoted fans.

Perhaps I was unclear: I meant  why  did these guys turn in  work for free when they were apparently supposed to be paid. There is a huge difference between an OSR labor of love where you never expected to make a dime off it and working for a company for free when you've apparently got a contract specifying you are getting paid.

Quote from: Dumarest;967293I thought I clearly meant why these guys worked free when they were apparently supposed to be paid. There is a huge difference between an OSR labor of love where you never expected to make a dime off it and working for a company for free when you've apparently got a contract specifying you are getting paid.

From what I had been told one of those Exalted devs was suffering a life threating illness, but the chance to work on Exalted 3rd edition is once in a life time.

I am not even going to dignify that with sarcasm.  The word fan came from fanatic for a reason.  It is wise to never become a fan of any thing.

My guess, as I said during the podcast, was ignorance born of youthful idealism.  The developers were elevated fans who had only gotten to work on a handful of supplements before suddenly being offered the opportunity to become developers.  They may have not understood the paradigm of contract before payment with a specified number of words to be submitted and payment per word up to the specified amount, nor why that paradigm existed.  They were novices, ignorant of how badly they could be taken advantage of.  The shift to OPP (versus what was originally Transmedia) might also have lulled them into a false sense of security: CCP seemingly hadn't screwed them over in the past, so they extended trust to OPP when they should have viewed it as a new and unknown entity.

White Wolf isnt much better than OP.

But this those screwover of the designers/writers on a KS isnt new unfortunately.

Last year we had a publisher screw a designer out of the entirety of the KS campaign royalties by claiming it wasnt covered as "sales". This after suckering him into promoting the KS.

It still doesn't completely excuse the behavior that Holden had to the kickstarters and exalted fans that he banned from rpg.net.  Yes Holden is a victim to Rich Thomas, but I cannot have sympathy for Holden as he fuck people over too.

Getting people to write for free on something they love is so common that it was already an old cliche among writers long before roleplaying games existed. In the age of the Internet, it is really common. I've had multiple friends over the years that have written for prominent websites in return for "exposure" and a shot at a paid position that would never really be offered.

Wasn't there a video of a Hollywood writer ranting at young people who write for free?

Quote from: Snowman0147;967303Wasn't there a video of a Hollywood writer ranting at young people who write for free?

I seem to recall that was Harlan Ellison.

Quote from: Baulderstone;967305I seem to recall that was Harlan Ellison.

If so he is a wise man.

[video=youtube;mj5IV23g-fE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mj5IV23g-fE[/youtube]

Quote from: Omega;967299Last year we had a publisher screw a designer out of the entirety of the KS campaign royalties by claiming it wasnt covered as "sales". This after suckering him into promoting the KS.

What publisher, what kickstarter?  If it happened I want to never give them money again, not be coy about it.

Quote from: Dumarest;967293Perhaps I was unclear: I meant  why  did these guys turn in  work for free when they were apparently supposed to be paid. There is a huge difference between an OSR labor of love where you never expected to make a dime off it and working for a company for free when you've apparently got a contract specifying you are getting paid.

Payment by royalties is pretty standard in publishing.  Twice a year off previous half-year's sales is fairly common in non-gaming publishing for instance, though I don't know the details for Onyx Path.  Lag between submitting a draft, time for editing and printing, and six months after release date can be pretty long.  If the publisher then doesn't bother to cut a check, what's your recourse?  If you're very unlucky you might already be into them for two or three books.

Quote from: Dave R;967316What publisher, what kickstarter?  If it happened I want to never give them money again, not be coy about it.

I dont know. He wouldnt say and I eventually got fed up with him complaining about being ripped off but refusing to name names "for fear of damaging his carreer" which means he was enabling the rip-off publisher to screw over someone else. He wasnt using his designer account so there was no way to just check.

Theres another publisher thats done it that I know of but I cant find the thread now. Mayfair I believe. But Im likely wrong.

Quote from: Dave R;967316Payment by royalties is pretty standard in publishing.  Twice a year off previous half-year's sales is fairly common in non-gaming publishing for instance, though I don't know the details for Onyx Path.  Lag between submitting a draft, time for editing and printing, and six months after release date can be pretty long.  If the publisher then doesn't bother to cut a check, what's your recourse?  If you're very unlucky you might already be into them for two or three books.

For the record, WW and then OP never paid by royalties to freelancers, or at least not in their gaming sourcebooks.  There may have been one or two occasions for somebody, somewhere, but as long as I worked for them, me and everybody I knew got paid half upon delivery of a final draft and the other half upon release or something similar.  You also always got a kill fee if for some reason you produced your work and it wasn't released.  There was one time when I got paid 100% upon printing, when somebody dropped out of a product at the last minute and I had to produce my whole portion over a weekend, but again, the first thing that happened is that I got sent a contract with the terms laid out.

OP and WW never expected anybody to work for free, and anybody saying that is not telling the truth. From day one, I was told never accept work as a freelancer for any company where you didn't get a contract, because the contract spells out a) how much you're getting paid, b) what you're getting paid for, and c) how you get paid if for some reason they don't use your stuff.  Also, things like comp copies and the like.  During the various work I did for Exalted over the years, there was only one time where developers expected me to work without a contract, didn't give me one when I asked, and when OP was apprised of it they immediately rectified it after reaching out to me through two other developers and then an employee of the company proper.  I was informed in no uncertain terms that was not how they did business, and that matches my previous experiences when WW was in business.  

Contracts and pay are a big deal because they protect both the freelancer and the company.

Quote from: J.L. Duncan;967315[video=youtube;mj5IV23g-fE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mj5IV23g-fE[/youtube]

And that folks, is just one of the reasons why I love Harlan Ellison.

Quote from: jeff37923;967329And that folks, is just one of the reasons why I love Harlan Ellison.

Ha, that is fantastic and he's so dead-on.

Quote from: Dave R;967316Payment by royalties is pretty standard in publishing.  Twice a year off previous half-year's sales is fairly common in non-gaming publishing for instance, though I don't know the details for Onyx Path.  Lag between submitting a draft, time for editing and printing, and six months after release date can be pretty long.  If the publisher then doesn't bother to cut a check, what's your recourse?  If you're very unlucky you might already be into them for two or three books.

So are advances and by the word and payment on delivery. If you agree to defer payment and then don't get paid and don't know what your recourse is and keep writing for free, you've established that your actual pay rate is zero. I've worked in publishing. I'd be more than happy to have a fool work on spec. It's one of the oldest scams in Hollywood. Mark Evanier's //www.newsfromme.com web site goes into this in great detail.

Here is the gist of what I wrote on it. The rest is on my blog. Meh

The fact that Holden' notes 90k words were not being paid for is a surprise in only that he wrote that many, without being paid... (that's my professional asshole perspective) On Twitter (imgur post above) the number is 150K for the Orichalcum Edition, which is still in production from the Kickstarter...

I'm I the only one to think that a line developer... developing lines (words) that aren't published in the bulk of the production is as much a problem for OPP, as it might be the writer... And now that writer is no more? It doesn't bode well for either; the company or the writer.

This is the RPG Edition of throw enough shit and some of it will stick, but that's not to say whether it has merit or not. On one hand we have a number of freelancers outing (of note, recently let go or no longer working for) the company, on the other we have the company and a number of freelancers defending said company. The real problem is that ethics and professionalism aren't the same dance.

Quote from: Dumarest;967293Perhaps I was unclear: I meant  why  did these guys turn in  work for free when they were apparently supposed to be paid. There is a huge difference between an OSR labor of love where you never expected to make a dime off it and working for a company for free when you've apparently got a contract specifying you are getting paid.

The reason why is simple: They're not professionals. It *is* different if you're working on your own stuff as a labor of love with no expectation of getting paid. But then I wouldn't consider that a professional move either. It isn't. It's a labor of love and if it makes money - nifty.

A professional is someone that brings their skills to the market and produces a product/service that others are willing to buy. If you're willing to get suckered to do the heavy lifting for someone else to profit - you are, by definition, unprofessional. Because you're not going to survive on that model, nor does it show any maturity of character to realize that your skills are bankable. There is the corollary effect that those that work for free value their work exactly that much (i.e. they don't).

I take no satisfaction in people losing jobs etc. That they would write 100k+ words without a contract with the *assumption* they'd be paid paints them as complete idiots.

Quote from: Dave R;967316If you're very unlucky you might already be into them for two or three books.

If you wrote a book and didn't get paid for it, I have a hard time feeling sorry for you for agreeing to write additional books for the same company or person. That's just stupid. What's that "fool me once, shame on you" line?

Quote from: jeff37923;967329And that folks, is just one of the reasons why I love Harlan Ellison.

That was undiluted awesome.

I won't shed a tear for any of the Onyx Path crowd. They have always been unprofessional jerks since they were with White Wolf.

I chose a lot of years ago not to reward any of them further with my money. And it seems once again that I was proven 100% right in making that choice.

Seeing them treat their talent as bad as they treat their customers doesn't bring me any joy. It brings me no sense of vindication. It just shows me how stupid people can be. In supporting pure unprofessionalism.

As a publisher, myself. It just makes me look on with horror and disgust.

But it really gets me that they have the audacity to be critical of what the Paradox version of White Wolf is doing with the product lines Paradox are the owners of. It's absolutely hypocritical.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;967415But it really gets me that they have the audacity to be critical of what the Paradox version of White Wolf is doing with the product lines Paradox are the owners of. It's absolutely hypocritical.

Has anyone from OP been critical of Paradox?

Quote from: Baulderstone;967429Has anyone from OP been critical of Paradox?

Over on TBP. You can find it amidst the threads of endless whining about Paradox White Wolf exerting creative control and direction over a couple of supplements.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;967433Over on TBP. You can find it amidst the threads of endless whining about Paradox White Wolf exerting creative control and direction over a couple of supplements.

So, you can't name anybody from OP that was complaining about it? I'm not going to dig through months of threads.

From what I recall, the mods seemed more interested in locking threads complaining about Zak and Hite working with White Wolf than in getting in on the complaints.

They are whining at Onyx Path forums as well.  None of the staff of course, but OP fans are no fans of the new White Wolf.

The thing is... This whole debacle paints the writers as victims of ignorance, while OPP was more than willing to take what was serviceable. Still:

Through the freelancers involved likely feel crapped on (and that may be the case) and part of me "feels" for those guys, the fact that Holden doesn't put together that 90K words here and 150K words there, says more about his (speculation) abilities to produce what OPP wanted/expected, than it does about OPP "nefarious" business practices. There is also a freelancer on the Facebook post who redacted her work from OPP, but it isn't clear why.

I had my own mini-tantrum with Palladium Books. But, when I had a bit of time I came to realize I allowed that (unfortunate situation) to happen, just as much as Palladium facilitated it. Admittedly, my situation wasn't at the scope of what is here (not even close), but it sure smells similar.

Okay posted a email and the two links to White Wolf as promise.  Let see if this works.

Quote from: Snowman0147;967443Okay posted a email and the two links to White Wolf as promise.  Let see if this works.

Hopefully, the link was Ellison...

Quote from: J.L. Duncan;967446Hopefully, the link was Ellison...

What kind of links you think I would be using?

This also shows off the problem of game designers wanting to be payed per word rather than quality. Theres been a vocal faction over in board gaming demanding to be payed per word to. Which we keep pointing out is utterly mentally stunted as the idea in board game rules is to get the idea across in LESS words. Not more.

Even in RPGs this can hold true. Otherwise you end up with bloated books that take forever to tell you even the simplest of rules or are more prose than rules.

Quote from: Omega;967458Otherwise you end up with bloated books that take forever to tell you even the simplest of rules or are more prose than rules.

Well, we are talking about Exalted.

Quote from: Omega;967458This also shows off the problem of game designers wanting to be payed per word rather than quality. Theres been a vocal faction over in board gaming demanding to be payed per word to. Which we keep pointing out is utterly mentally stunted as the idea in board game rules is to get the idea across in LESS words. Not more.

Even in RPGs this can hold true. Otherwise you end up with bloated books that take forever to tell you even the simplest of rules or are more prose than rules.

That would be the case if there wasn't some ceiling on words.  But the way it's supposed to work is that the developer creates an outline that determines a) how big the book is supposed to be, b) what it covers, c) which writers are handling which sections, and d) how many words those sections are.  They do this because they're also dealing with art or having an art developer do that, the company has to decide whether it's going to be hardcover or softcover and how big, etc.  This stuff is figured out way before anybody starts writing.  

I got assigned 25k in The Outcaste to handle the Lost Eggs chapter.  I got a contract and an NDA.  I got a writer's guide which told me which words were capitalized and which were not.  I got a ten page or so outline, with included a two page summary of what my section was to include, and the same outline described what the other authors were assigned and their word counts so that we didn't double-dip.  If I wrote 45k, I didn't get paid for 45k, what happened is the developer had to cut 20k of my shit so it could fit, and I got paid for the 25k I was contracted for. Conceivably, if somebody wrote some William Shakespeare shit and it went over, the developer could make room somehow, or cut down somebody else's chapter, or whatever, but at the end of the day, that's not the way it normally works.  You get contracted for 25k, you get paid for 25k.  If they end up not using your section for whatever reason -- you get a kill fee.  

If you paid people by "quality," then unscrupulous dicks would hire you to write 25k, tell you it sucks, and meddle with your pay.  It's not a novel.  These are typically set up like textbooks.  You're contracted to write a specific section at a specific wordcount.  The developer may ask you in the lead up if there's something that really floats your boat so they can assign you something you're passionate about, but at the end of the day, it's a professional assignment.

Quote from: Baulderstone;967301Getting people to write for free on something they love is so common that it was already an old cliche among writers long before roleplaying games existed. In the age of the Internet, it is really common. I've had multiple friends over the years that have written for prominent websites in return for "exposure" and a shot at a paid position that would never really be offered.

That's true of any creative field.  A lot of people enjoy the work and are willing to do it for free to get a bit of glory - and that's fine even if it does make it tougher for the paid pros.  *tear*

There are hundreds of community theaters where actors work for nothing or even help pay for the production costs.  Does that make it tougher for anyone who wants to put on a show where the actors would get paid decent wages?  Of course it does.  Those pros have to put on a production enough better that it makes audiences willing to shell out way more $ for tickets than the $10-15 for community theater.

Now - this in no way excuses a publisher from lying about how much they'll pay a writer.  But writing for free doesn't make you a moron so long as you do it as a hobby and don't actually ever expect to get paid.

Quote from: Omega;967458This also shows off the problem of game designers wanting to be payed per word rather than quality. Theres been a vocal faction over in board gaming demanding to be payed per word to. Which we keep pointing out is utterly mentally stunted as the idea in board game rules is to get the idea across in LESS words. Not more.

Even in RPGs this can hold true. Otherwise you end up with bloated books that take forever to tell you even the simplest of rules or are more prose than rules.

Coincidentally, I was talking to my father last night, and he was talking about a real estate deal where a guy was obsessed with looking at the price per square foot over all other considerations. The guy was making an offer on a property that satisfied none of his actual requirements because it basically had the the best price per pound.

I brought up RPGs, and how some gamers obsess over the page count when it comes to pricing, not taking into account things like time spent on playtesting and design or how a polished design might actually lead to a book getting shorter. Also the fact that when you are buying a game, the amount of time you spend playing it has no clear correlation to the length of the book.

It's like if we bought software based on how many megabytes it took up.

Quote from: Future Villain Band;967463That would be the case if there wasn't some ceiling on words.  But the way it's supposed to work is that the developer creates an outline that determines a) how big the book is supposed to be, b) what it covers, c) which writers are handling which sections, and d) how many words those sections are.  They do this because they're also dealing with art or having an art developer do that, the company has to decide whether it's going to be hardcover or softcover and how big, etc.  This stuff is figured out way before anybody starts writing.

That's also a good point, but wasn't Holden actually the line developer for Exalted? Seems if your line developer is being paid (or failing to get paid, depending on the who is telling the truth) by the word it might lead to them being encouraged to develop a game that is an enormous bloated mess.

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;967466That's true of any creative field.  A lot of people enjoy the work and are willing to do it for free to get a bit of glory - and that's fine even if it does make it tougher for the paid pros.  *tear*

There are hundreds of community theaters where actors work for nothing or even help pay for the production costs.  Does that make it tougher for anyone who wants to put on a show where the actors would get paid decent wages?  Of course it does.  Those pros have to put on a production enough better that it makes audiences willing to shell out way more $ for tickets than the $10-15 for community theater.

Sure, I have some acting in my background, as does my mother, so I am well aware of that. I also do a lot of volunteer work for art education, so while I see myself as being charitable, someone might see me as ruining their chance to make a living in art education.

QuoteNow - this in no way excuses a publisher from lying about how much they'll pay a writer.  But writing for free doesn't make you a moron so long as you do it as a hobby and don't actually ever expect to get paid.

Complete agreement. I was just responding to people in the thread that were amazed anyone would write for free by pointing out that it isn't an unusual situation at all.

Quote from: Baulderstone;967471I also do a lot of volunteer work for art education, so while I see myself as being charitable, someone might see me as ruining their chance to make a living in art education.

Harlan Ellison is right, all those pesky GMs running games for free, ruining the opportunity for professional Game Mastering...

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;967553Harlan Ellison is right, all those pesky GMs running games for free, ruining the opportunity for professional Game Mastering...

Don't even start. People are already doing pay to play.

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;967553Harlan Ellison is right, all those pesky GMs running games for free, ruining the opportunity for professional Game Mastering...

.....

Quote from: Krimson;967558Don't even start. People are already doing pay to play.

Dang! That's what I've been doing wrong, for all these years -letting people pay for free! I can fix that; should I charge by the hour of game time, or a flat-rate per player per game session? 'Basic' or 'Premium' game experience? Charge extra for use of the miniatures? Stock the popular games for sale? Sell snacks? XP for cash payments? Dice rentals? Make the big money off the concessions stand in the corner of the game room?

Inquiring minds want to know... :)

People pay lots of money on $5-$10 dollar subscriptions/month here and there they don't even use that often.  They pay $5 for a Starbucks and $10-$20 on a movie ticket.

When I was back in college, there was a GM who was going to school full-time and working two jobs to pay for it, he literally could not afford to both sleep and GM.  He offered to reduce his hours at his lower paying job and use that to run stuff and get ready, if players were willing to step up and pay a few bucks per session to cover his time.  He's still take a hit, but it wouldn't be economic suicide.  For a while, everyone looked at him like he was crazy, so he stopped GMing at went to work and school and didn't really have any leisure time.  Eventually, people decided to have the group pitch in 5 or 10 bucks a session and cover the drinks and snacks.  He started the campaign up again, we all had fun and no one felt ripped off.

Having players pitch in to help with costs or new product purchases is nothing new.

Demanding the players pay you... thats a different matter.

Quote from: CRKrueger;967671People pay lots of money on $5-$10 dollar subscriptions/month here and there they don't even use that often.  They pay $5 for a Starbucks and $10-$20 on a movie ticket.

When I was back in college, there was a GM who was going to school full-time and working two jobs to pay for it, he literally could not afford to both sleep and GM.  He offered to reduce his hours at his lower paying job and use that to run stuff and get ready, if players were willing to step up and pay a few bucks per session to cover his time.  He's still take a hit, but it wouldn't be economic suicide.  For a while, everyone looked at him like he was crazy, so he stopped GMing at went to work and school and didn't really have any leisure time.  Eventually, people decided to have the group pitch in 5 or 10 bucks a session and cover the drinks and snacks.  He started the campaign up again, we all had fun and no one felt ripped off.

How much time was he spending GMing?! I occasionally get up around 15 hours/week when classes aren't running, but that's across several campaigns. A single campaign is about 5 hours tops (my Sunday players will start arriving ca 1pm today and leaving ca 6pm). Was he spending tons of time on prep work?

People will pay for anything if you can make them value it. People pay extra for Los Angeles tap water to be put in plastic bottles and labeled with a fancy fake name like "Pure Evergreen Springs." Damn that freedom of choice!

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;967553Harlan Ellison is right, all those pesky GMs running games for free, ruining the opportunity for professional Game Mastering...

Quote from: Krimson;967558Don't even start. People are already doing pay to play.

Like for real???? The hell I mean there A difference to players kicking in for supplements or covering the cost of snakes if the DM pickes them up / brings them is one thing but actully trying to make money on the players at your table sounds and feels douchey as hell.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;967590Dang! That's what I've been doing wrong, for all these years -letting people pay for free! I can fix that; should I charge by the hour of game time, or a flat-rate per player per game session? 'Basic' or 'Premium' game experience? Charge extra for use of the miniatures? Stock the popular games for sale? Sell snacks? XP for cash payments? Dice rentals? Make the big money off the concessions stand in the corner of the game room?

Inquiring minds want to know... :)

Good post funny as hell.

Quote from: CRKrueger;967671People pay lots of money on $5-$10 dollar subscriptions/month here and there they don't even use that often.  They pay $5 for a Starbucks and $10-$20 on a movie ticket.

When I was back in college, there was a GM who was going to school full-time and working two jobs to pay for it, he literally could not afford to both sleep and GM.  He offered to reduce his hours at his lower paying job and use that to run stuff and get ready, if players were willing to step up and pay a few bucks per session to cover his time.  He's still take a hit, but it wouldn't be economic suicide.  For a while, everyone looked at him like he was crazy, so he stopped GMing at went to work and school and didn't really have any leisure time.  Eventually, people decided to have the group pitch in 5 or 10 bucks a session and cover the drinks and snacks.  He started the campaign up again, we all had fun and no one felt ripped off.

Now this is a little diferent here you have players kicking in some money so he can literally afford to DM that's a little different then saying you wana play my game you need to pony up the dosh.

Quote from: Omega;967673Having players pitch in to help with costs or new product purchases is nothing new.

Demanding the players pay you... thats a different matter.

Agreed actually in my old group it got to a point where people just bought things and made sure they showed up at the game even if they where not there so that it was available if needed.
To be fair that was 3.5 so its a bit different.

I had my players pitch in on a book purchase once when I was around 20 and low on cash. They did it happily, but I never asked again. It made me feel like I was doing this as a job to entertain them rather than us all just being a bunch of friends hanging out. It wasn't what I wanted my gaming time friends to feel like.

I don't have any issue with other people charging though. If they are asking and people are willing to pay, then that's all that matters.

Quote from: kosmos1214;967830Now this is a little diferent here you have players kicking in some money so he can literally afford to DM that's a little different then saying you wana play my game you need to pony up the dosh.

I dunno'.  I'll agree that "pay me or you don't get to play in my game" types go nowhere quick, but I'm sure there are people out there who have a hard time finding a reliable, good GM and -are- be willing to pay for the service.  I forget the guy's name, but there's at least one guy pulling ~$30k doing it full time.  He doesn't get benefits, and it's a pretty crummy sounding career for my tastes, but he's having fun and helping people meet like minded gamers (i.e. folks who can't find groups else wise).  Also, there's all those folks charging $XXXX to play a campaign with developers/writers/etc. as part of a Kickstarter reward tier (like... say... Exalted).

I mean, people -do- pay for GMing now, and it's not inherently assholish on the part of the GM.

(and now this whole thing reminds me of arguments about legalized prostitution.  But without the VD element I hope)

Quote from: S'mon;967687How much time was he spending GMing?! I occasionally get up around 15 hours/week when classes aren't running, but that's across several campaigns. A single campaign is about 5 hours tops (my Sunday players will start arriving ca 1pm today and leaving ca 6pm). Was he spending tons of time on prep work?

Yeah, he was that type of GM.  He ran a World in Motion sandbox where you could head anywhere and feel like the place was fully detailed.  It's why people decided it was better to have him GM than not.  We usually played on the weekend, at least 6-8 hours.

Quote from: kosmos1214;967830Like for real???? The hell I mean there A difference to players kicking in for supplements or covering the cost of snakes if the DM pickes them up / brings them is one thing but actully trying to make money on the players at your table sounds and feels douchey as hell.

Now this is a little diferent here you have players kicking in some money so he can literally afford to DM that's a little different then saying you wana play my game you need to pony up the dosh.

Yeah, I know it's not quite the same thing.  Some people play with friends, others game with people that they don't hang with anywhere else, others have open tables at FLGS where people show up to play.  If a GM runs a successful table every week for whoever shows up, and everyone likes it, charging an entrance fee is a little different than expecting your friends to pay your rent through GMing or something.

In the end though, for services like that Caveat Emptor.  If a GM was good enough, I might Patreon them.

Back in the day. When I was first starting in gaming. The only place to play the RPGs I wanted to play charged game groups for being there. It was a $1 collection from every player for the heating/cooling, and the lights. Wasn't any more than that. The GM was exempt from paying. Because they hosted the game. And we all pitched in a little for communal snacks from the local grocery.

That's a far cry from a GM actually charging admission. And I believe that once it is brought to that level. It stops being a hobby. And the GM is trying to turn it into a profession.

GMing as a profession I find completely distasteful. I think it lessens the hobby's accessibility. And takes RPGs away from being a casual social hobby.

Quote from: san dee jota;967833I dunno'.  I'll agree that "pay me or you don't get to play in my game" types go nowhere quick, but I'm sure there are people out there who have a hard time finding a reliable, good GM and -are- be willing to pay for the service.  I forget the guy's name, but there's at least one guy pulling ~$30k doing it full time.  He doesn't get benefits, and it's a pretty crummy sounding career for my tastes, but he's having fun and helping people meet like minded gamers (i.e. folks who can't find groups else wise).  Also, there's all those folks charging $XXXX to play a campaign with developers/writers/etc. as part of a Kickstarter reward tier (like... say... Exalted).

I mean, people -do- pay for GMing now, and it's not inherently assholish on the part of the GM.

(and now this whole thing reminds me of arguments about legalized prostitution.  But without the VD element I hope)

Again both of those are A little different.

Yeah, this compulsory payment I'm required to make to play games has ruined the hobby. Oh wait, I can play for free anytime I want. What a problem.

Quote from: CRKrueger;967848Yeah, he was that type of GM.  He ran a World in Motion sandbox where you could head anywhere and feel like the place was fully detailed.  It's why people decided it was better to have him GM than not.  

I do that too with my Wilderlands Ghinarian Hills campaign (using the 3e box set), but I mostly GM that online text-chat which I guess makes it easier to roll stuff up during play. Still, a few rolls on donjon.net random generator gives me tons of material to work with, along with the published hexcrawl setting. I'm guessing he created his own sandbox setting, made his own dungeons? I do a lot of plug & play with published minimally keyed dungeons scattered around. I've noticed that trying to sandbox-GM unkeyed settings like Karameikos & Hollow World without tons of prep is much more challenging.

Quote from: kosmos1214;967830covering the cost of snakes if the DM pickes them up / brings them is one thing

I've never been in a game where a snake budget was required, but I think I might want to be.

Quote from: CRKrueger;967671People pay lots of money on $5-$10 dollar subscriptions/month here and there they don't even use that often.  They pay $5 for a Starbucks and $10-$20 on a movie ticket.

When I was back in college, there was a GM who was going to school full-time and working two jobs to pay for it, he literally could not afford to both sleep and GM.  He offered to reduce his hours at his lower paying job and use that to run stuff and get ready, if players were willing to step up and pay a few bucks per session to cover his time.  He's still take a hit, but it wouldn't be economic suicide.  For a while, everyone looked at him like he was crazy, so he stopped GMing at went to work and school and didn't really have any leisure time.  Eventually, people decided to have the group pitch in 5 or 10 bucks a session and cover the drinks and snacks.  He started the campaign up again, we all had fun and no one felt ripped off.

There's a certain... I don't even know what to call it... acceptable level of bending the norms during that whole college part of your life where those with $ occasionally supplement those without simply because they want their company. You'd worry about what it encourages, except you all know that it's not going to continue. My current gaming group has one 20 y.o. right now who works part time as a cable installer or something while the rest of us are all 40 y.o.+and at various levels of tech- and healthcare- industry professionals. It's an unstated norm that this guy doesn't contribute to the snacks and usually gets a ride, simply because otherwise he wouldn't be there. If this were the case in five years time, the same guy would be a mooch and the supplementing simply wouldn't happen.

I don't know exactly what I'm saying, except maybe that I don't think one can extrapolate too much from that scenario to a more broad pay-to-play scenario.

Its gets better. I use the word better here as an anagram for worse... Over ob BGG we have some designers bitching about wanting to be payed just for submitting a game to a published. Theres a whole "spec work" thread about how a publisher holding a contest is "spec work" and we keep pointing out that unless the publisher has a "you submit it - we own it" clause then No. It is not spec work you morons. Its no different from doing a game for a non-publisher contest, scouts, or whatever. Read the damn fine print.

Quote from: Omega;967935I use the word better here as an anagram for worse...

You're in luck, there are four: resow, serow, sower, and swore. :p

Quote from: HappyDaze;967932I've never been in a game where a snake budget was required, but I think I might want to be.

"Lets see...dice, note paper, dry wash board, chips, vipers, drinks... yep looks like I'm all set for tonight's game." :)

Quote from: Nexus;967956"Lets see...dice, note paper, dry wash board, chips, vipers, drinks... yep looks like I'm all set for tonight's game."

"Loser.  Everybody knows the only real version of the game uses cobras.  Vipers are just some nonsense that got thrown in to appeal to the faction of players who haven't discovered soap yet.  They're almost as bad as those Boa School Revival idiots."

Totally off topic. But was DMing once and had the disconcerting experience of a spider rappelling off my eyebrow...

Quote from: Krimson;967558Don't even start. People are already doing pay to play.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;967590Dang! That's what I've been doing wrong, for all these years -letting people pay for free! I can fix that; should I charge by the hour of game time, or a flat-rate per player per game session?

Back in the day, I ran a weekly game Monday nights at a local game store. I was paid $20 an evening ($5/hr, 4 hrs. Min wage at the time.) Lasted for about 3 months; it was a good gig at the time.

Originally, the owner paid me to run the game, and then made me turn it over to an enthusiastic player. He killed it that night- sent everyone to Ravenloft. I had 12 people showing up every week, and it never recovered. Some people came back and asked for me, and the owner said that he wouldn't subsidize it anymore. I said that if they covered what I would have made, I would do it. They did. The table ranged from 3-7, and lasted for about three months after that.

Quote from: HappyDaze;967932I've never been in a game where a snake budget was required, but I think I might want to be.

Well for us its just that he was physically picking them up and we where paying back the cost its also worth pointing out we where literally playing for A 10ish hour stretch so you needed to eat some time in there.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;967934There's a certain... I don't even know what to call it... acceptable level of bending the norms during that whole college part of your life where those with $ occasionally supplement those without simply because they want their company. You'd worry about what it encourages, except you all know that it's not going to continue. My current gaming group has one 20 y.o. right now who works part time as a cable installer or something while the rest of us are all 40 y.o.+and at various levels of tech- and healthcare- industry professionals. It's an unstated norm that this guy doesn't contribute to the snacks and usually gets a ride, simply because otherwise he wouldn't be there. If this were the case in five years time, the same guy would be a mooch and the supplementing simply wouldn't happen.

I don't know exactly what I'm saying, except maybe that I don't think one can extrapolate too much from that scenario to a more broad pay-to-play scenario.

Where I come from its called extenuating circumstances and its understood  that it can happen at any time in your life.

Quote from: kosmos1214;968086Where I come from its called extenuating circumstances and its understood  that it can happen at any time in your life.

Fair enough. I still stand by the point that I wouldn't extrapolate it to paid-gamer-as-job.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;968180Fair enough. I still stand by the point that I wouldn't extrapolate it to paid-gamer-as-job.

Fair.

RPG.net apparently can't distinguish between an exposé and a hit piece.  Apparently criticizing OPP is now akin to sexual assault, or some other type of convoluted logic I can't follow.

https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?805320-A-History-of-EX(posure)-3rd-Edition-thread (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?805320-A-History-of-EX(posure)-3rd-Edition-thread)

Quote from: Lord Darkview;968657RPG.net apparently can't distinguish between an exposé and a hit piece.  Apparently criticizing OPP is now akin to sexual assault, or some other type of convoluted logic I can't follow.

https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?805320-A-History-of-EX(posure)-3rd-Edition-thread (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?805320-A-History-of-EX(posure)-3rd-Edition-thread)

"So, several brave staff members put the time in to listen to the entire podcast. This is a burden I can't overstate.

Like, what I'm saying is kind of funny, but it's not a joke. We're talking an hour and a half here."

Such martyrdom.

"Tell you what, though. One of these days I am going to snap and start infracting people for claiming that game writers/devs/et cetera are paid too much and are just cashing in at the expense of the fans. It's not my job to determine that it's factually wrong (although it is), but it is toxic to the hobby and I'd love to put an end to it. "

Huh. Last I looked, the claims were that OP wasn't paying devs and writers. That's some pretty strong spin to rewrite the claims as saying that devs and writers were being overpaid.

Quote from: Baulderstone;968662"So, several brave staff members put the time in to listen to the entire podcast. This is a burden I can't overstate.

Like, what I'm saying is kind of funny, but it's not a joke. We're talking an hour and a half here."

Such martyrdom.

Nailing themselves to crosses is the mods favorite hobby over there, particularly when he's not electronically cosplaying Cartman.

Quote from: Baulderstone;968662"So, several brave staff members put the time in to listen to the entire podcast. This is a burden I can't overstate.

Like, what I'm saying is kind of funny, but it's not a joke. We're talking an hour and a half here."

Such martyrdom.

"Tell you what, though. One of these days I am going to snap and start infracting people for claiming that game writers/devs/et cetera are paid too much and are just cashing in at the expense of the fans. It's not my job to determine that it's factually wrong (although it is), but it is toxic to the hobby and I'd love to put an end to it. "

Huh. Last I looked, the claims were that OP wasn't paying devs and writers. That's some pretty strong spin to rewrite the claims as saying that devs and writers were being overpaid.

You know damn well that the big purple now just shafted Holden, Hatewheel, and David A. Hill Jr.  Yeah just completely ignore their plight and hope that Rich Thomas doesn't fuck you in the ass like how Holden found out.  Which by the way he will.

Wow.

I wonder how much you can continue to bash on Palladium Books over there for doing the same stuff as OPP, because that's been allowed for years (over a decade now?).

Funny thing... if this thread is any evidence, people would've gotten bored and moved on in short order if they'd been allowed to talk it out.  "OPP is crooked... but I like/already hate their games, so... enh."  Again, look at Palladium Books.  

So, does this mean Zak S. hit threads are now verboten too?  I mean, it's just as much "he said/he said" cross forum hit piece drama as the OPP stuff.  I kid, I kid.  I know the threads won't be mod locked, because Zak S. doesn't ever hire any of the mod staff there.

And Jesus H. Christ you poor TBP mods... forget the fucking podcast.  I couldn't listen to one for over twenty seconds, let alone over an hour.  I can read all the screen grabs of the multiple people saying variations of the same thing though, and in a lot less time.

(and for the record: I -do- believe FVB when he said he was treated fairly and professionally by OPP.  That doesn't mean everyone else was though, or that Holden and the others didn't have valid grievances, but he felt the need to support OPP with a counter point and I do believe him.)

Ive never heard of Palladium not paying freelancers? Just that Kev is really mercurial to work with.

Quote from: Omega;968755Ive never heard of Palladium not paying freelancers? Just that Kev is really mercurial to work with.

Fair enough.

Palladium's main shtick was to say "we'll pay you 3-7 cents a word" to a freelancer.  Freelancer hears "I can make 7 cents a word!!!" and Kevin intends to pay only 3.  I get the impression that similar was happening with OPP, but I admit I could be wrong.

Still, it's a fair comparison regarding how TPB tolerates people bashing on other publishers and not OPP.

Quote from: san dee jota;968763Palladium's main shtick was to say "we'll pay you 3-7 cents a word" to a freelancer.  Freelancer hears "I can make 7 cents a word!!!" and Kevin intends to pay only 3.

Business 101/Contracts 101: GET IT IN WRITING...otherwise the agreement isn't worth the paper it's printed on.

Quote from: Lord Darkview;968657RPG.net apparently can't distinguish between an exposé and a hit piece.  Apparently criticizing OPP is now akin to sexual assault, or some other type of convoluted logic I can't follow.

https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?805320-A-History-of-EX(posure)-3rd-Edition-thread (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?805320-A-History-of-EX(posure)-3rd-Edition-thread)

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My general opinion of TBP is pretty low at this point. But it doesn't surprise me that they keep shutting down conversations that they don't like. They have done it to me in the past.

I will say this flat out. I believe TBP is anti-consumer. They do not want consumers having a voice there. The speech has to be flowery and positive. Or it doesn't get to exist at all.

My last ban there was due to standing up to a troll. And telling that troll in no uncertain terms. That they don't have the right to dictate what sort of opinions I am to have. That they aren't my thought police. And that I wouldn't just sit back and take that sort of treatment.

As for the cWoD. Well to be honest. A lot of it I consider it to be complete pile of hot garbage. The developers seem to believe that the stories of their characters are the most important thing. Instead of giving the tools to a storyteller up front to actually take and make the game their own.

The tools to do that have always been set aside in a drawn out manner through tons of sourcebooks. Where you would get tons of prose. And very sparse helpful information for actually running new aspects of the games they introduced.

So no. I don't believe they made competent rulebooks at all in the first place.

That's my opinion. Take it as you will.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;969098My general opinion of TBP is pretty low at this point. But it doesn't surprise me that they keep shutting down conversations that they don't like. They have done it to me in the past.

I will say this flat out. I believe TBP is anti-consumer. They do not want consumers having a voice there. The speech has to be flowery and positive. Or it doesn't get to exist at all.

My last ban there was due to standing up to a troll. And telling that troll in no uncertain terms. That they don't have the right to dictate what sort of opinions I am to have. That they aren't my thought police. And that I wouldn't just sit back and take that sort of treatment.

As for the cWoD. Well to be honest. A lot of it I consider it to be complete pile of hot garbage. The developers seem to believe that the stories of their characters are the most important thing. Instead of giving the tools to a storyteller up front to actually take and make the game their own.

The tools to do that have always been set aside in a drawn out manner through tons of sourcebooks. Where you would get tons of prose. And very sparse helpful information for actually running new aspects of the games they introduced.

So no. I don't believe they made competent rulebooks at all in the first place.

That's my opinion. Take it as you will.

You do realize this party over *here*, has been bumping for years because the party over *there* sucks for all the reasons you cited and much, much more? And thus we drink deeply and merrily (usually). /tink

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;969098My general opinion of TBP is pretty low at this point. But it doesn't surprise me that they keep shutting down conversations that they don't like. They have done it to me in the past.

I will say this flat out. I believe TBP is anti-consumer. They do not want consumers having a voice there. The speech has to be flowery and positive. Or it doesn't get to exist at all.

My last ban there was due to standing up to a troll. And telling that troll in no uncertain terms. That they don't have the right to dictate what sort of opinions I am to have. That they aren't my thought police. And that I wouldn't just sit back and take that sort of treatment.

As for the cWoD. Well to be honest. A lot of it I consider it to be complete pile of hot garbage. The developers seem to believe that the stories of their characters are the most important thing. Instead of giving the tools to a storyteller up front to actually take and make the game their own.

The tools to do that have always been set aside in a drawn out manner through tons of sourcebooks. Where you would get tons of prose. And very sparse helpful information for actually running new aspects of the games they introduced.

So no. I don't believe they made competent rulebooks at all in the first place.

That's my opinion. Take it as you will.

Meh, TBP is largely run by Goths and Communists, such as Black Hat Matt and Darren MacLerran (who goes by a different username now).

When it comes to WoD, I say fuck the themes, fuck the canon, and above all else, FUCK THE GOTH SUBCULTURE!

Personal Horror sucks ass. Bring on the trenchcoats and katanas!

Anime Rules, Marvel and DC suck.

Goths and Punks fuck off!

Quote from: Doc Sammy;969107Meh, TBP is largely run by Goths and Communists, such as Black Hat Matt and Darren MacLerran (who goes by a different username now).

When it comes to WoD, I say fuck the themes, fuck the canon, and above all else, FUCK THE GOTH SUBCULTURE!

Personal Horror sucks ass. Bring on the trenchcoats and katanas!

Anime Rules, Marvel and DC suck.

Goths and Punks fuck off!

Spoken like a true tribalist. Rock on with your furry, tentacle-clad self.

 I see a potential RPG here... Comic Clan vs. Goth Clan vs. Anime Waifu Clan all in a high-school. Toss in some pirates and ninja - maybe some devil-worshipping cultists. Maybe it's just my allegy meds talking...

Quote from: Doc Sammy;969107Personal Horror sucks ass.

I find the whole 'personal horror' thing to be intellectually dishonest to begin with.

The 'horror of turning into a monster' does not compare to the horror experienced by the victims of said monsters.

It's just more moral relativist garbage. In my opinion. Trying to elicit sympathy for the perpetrators of the horror. Instead of addressing the horror itself.

Quote from: tenbones;969112Spoken like a true tribalist. Rock on with your furry, tentacle-clad self.

 I see a potential RPG here... Comic Clan vs. Goth Clan vs. Anime Waifu Clan all in a high-school. Toss in some pirates and ninja - maybe some devil-worshipping cultists. Maybe it's just my allegy meds talking...

Maybe a Collectible Card Game. CON-frontation, maybe?

Quote from: tenbones;969112Spoken like a true tribalist. Rock on with your furry, tentacle-clad self.

 I see a potential RPG here... Comic Clan vs. Goth Clan vs. Anime Waifu Clan all in a high-school. Toss in some pirates and ninja - maybe some devil-worshipping cultists. Maybe it's just my allegy meds talking...

No I'm with you on this I can see this as A pretty cool game along the goofy campy line.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;969098My general opinion of TBP is pretty low at this point. But it doesn't surprise me that they keep shutting down conversations that they don't like. They have done it to me in the past.

I will say this flat out. I believe TBP is anti-consumer. They do not want consumers having a voice there. The speech has to be flowery and positive. Or it doesn't get to exist at all.

My last ban there was due to standing up to a troll. And telling that troll in no uncertain terms. That they don't have the right to dictate what sort of opinions I am to have. That they aren't my thought police. And that I wouldn't just sit back and take that sort of treatment.

As for the cWoD. Well to be honest. A lot of it I consider it to be complete pile of hot garbage. The developers seem to believe that the stories of their characters are the most important thing. Instead of giving the tools to a storyteller up front to actually take and make the game their own.

The tools to do that have always been set aside in a drawn out manner through tons of sourcebooks. Where you would get tons of prose. And very sparse helpful information for actually running new aspects of the games they introduced.

So no. I don't believe they made competent rulebooks at all in the first place.

That's my opinion. Take it as you will.

Amen! This mentality was/is pretty much the same on the WW fora. The thought police is watching you. Dogpiling, closing topics and forum bans if you don't go with the flow.I also agree with you about the cWoD and to be frank nWoD is slightly more modular, but has the same problems. The setting isn't open enough and there are not enough tools to make it your own. I like it better if you either have a sandbox or rules to make your own sandbox. Well, maybe it's better not to open a can of wurms with that subject. I still think the games have a lot of potential and I don't want to be too hung up with the negative side of rpg's. It's supposed to be fun!

Quote from: tenbones;969112Spoken like a true tribalist. Rock on with your furry, tentacle-clad self.

 I see a potential RPG here... Comic Clan vs. Goth Clan vs. Anime Waifu Clan all in a high-school. Toss in some pirates and ninja - maybe some devil-worshipping cultists. Maybe it's just my allegy meds talking...

Either way, in a perfect world, the 1970's would have ended with Punk dying and Disco surviving.

To all you Goths and Punks at TBP and elsewhere, garlic and crosses may not repel you, but try disco, bitch!

DEATH BY STEREO!

[video=youtube;PwUQWamRNiY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwUQWamRNiY[/youtube]

Quote from: jan paparazzi;969130Amen! This mentality was/is pretty much the same on the WW fora. The thought police is watching you. Dogpiling, closing topics and forum bans if you don't go with the flow.I also agree with you about the cWoD and to be frank nWoD is slightly more modular, but has the same problems. The setting isn't open enough and there are not enough tools to make it your own. I like it better if you either have a sandbox or rules to make your own sandbox. Well, maybe it's better not to open a can of wurms with that subject. I still think the games have a lot of potential and I don't want to be too hung up with the negative side of rpg's. It's supposed to be fun!

I'm a big fan of CJ Carella's Witchcraft. I have all of the books for it. That is pretty much my 'go-to' for that subgenre of RPGs.

But I am also a fan of Urban Arcana. Which is a setting I think is vastly underrated.

I also have Nightbane. Which I loved from the outset.

For Urban Fantasy. That covers me. I'm good with those.

As for 'splatbooks'. I liked how they were done when they were introduced with AD&D 2nd Edition. None were essential to own. But they all brought a treasure trove of ideas on how to use things already present in the game in new ways. And they were not dominated by useless prose. They were actual sourcebooks.

Quote from: Nexus;969124Maybe a Collectible Card Game. CON-frontation, maybe?

Ani-Mayhem? (1996)

Quote from: tenbones;969112Spoken like a true tribalist. Rock on with your furry, tentacle-clad self.

 I see a potential RPG here... Comic Clan vs. Goth Clan vs. Anime Waifu Clan all in a high-school. Toss in some pirates and ninja - maybe some devil-worshipping cultists. Maybe it's just my allegy meds talking...

The closest I ever came to that is a game I once ran called Maidenloft, which adapted MAID to Mutants and Masterminds 3e and was set in Castle Ravenloft with a Bishounen Strahd as the Master. I am not even joking (http://s415.photobucket.com/user/KrimsonGray/library/Maidenloft?sort=3&page=1). NPCs were made with 3D Custom Girl, and yet my map of Gothic Eastern Europe with inserted Dread Domains was made for this game. :D

Quote from: Krimson;969207The closest I ever came to that is a game I once ran called Maidenloft, which adapted MAID to Mutants and Masterminds 3e and was set in Castle Ravenloft with a Bishounen Strahd as the Master. I am not even joking (http://s415.photobucket.com/user/KrimsonGray/library/Maidenloft?sort=3&page=1). NPCs were made with 3D Custom Girl, and yet my map of Gothic Eastern Europe with inserted Dread Domains was made for this game. :D

I can see that working. If I squint.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;969208I can see that working. If I squint.

Most of the game was spent in a big kung fu battle, with Strahd's Maids playing castle defense fending off an angry crusade of Paladins, Clerics and Nuns with nunchucks.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;969135Either way, in a perfect world, the 1970's would have ended with Punk dying and Disco surviving.

To all you Goths and Punks at TBP and elsewhere, garlic and crosses may not repel you, but try disco, bitch!

DEATH BY STEREO!

[video=youtube;PwUQWamRNiY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwUQWamRNiY[/youtube]

You'd probably get a lot closer to writing one of the 35 games you currently are designing if you spent less time venting against people who don't know you, aren't listening to you, and only have anything still to do with your life because you keep them there.

Quote from: Krimson;969207The closest I ever came to that is a game I once ran called Maidenloft, which adapted MAID to Mutants and Masterminds 3e and was set in Castle Ravenloft with a Bishounen Strahd as the Master. I am not even joking (http://s415.photobucket.com/user/KrimsonGray/library/Maidenloft?sort=3&page=1). NPCs were made with 3D Custom Girl, and yet my map of Gothic Eastern Europe with inserted Dread Domains was made for this game. :D

...

...

That... works.

Quote from: CRKrueger;969239You'd probably get a lot closer to writing one of the 35 games you currently are designing if you spent less time venting against people who don't know you, aren't listening to you, and only have anything still to do with your life because you keep them there.

Fair point

Can we get back to the subject of gaming companies ripping off their designers or artists? Because for fucks sake this happens way too much and seems to be increasing. (I know it probably isnt. But the amount of reports is climbing.)

GOO, FFG, SJG, Atlas, Hasbro, FGU, WW, GW, and god knows how many little companies.

Quote from: Omega;969593Can we get back to the subject of gaming companies ripping off their designers or artists? Because for fucks sake this happens way too much and seems to be increasing. (I know it probably isnt. But the amount of reports is climbing.)

GOO, FFG, SJG, Atlas, Hasbro, FGU, WW, GW, and god knows how many little companies.

I'd be more interested in seeing links to go with those company names...

Quote from: Omega;969593Can we get back to the subject of gaming companies ripping off their designers or artists? Because for fucks sake this happens way too much and seems to be increasing. (I know it probably isnt. But the amount of reports is climbing.)

GOO, FFG, SJG, Atlas, Hasbro, FGU, WW, GW, and god knows how many little companies.

While I don't agree with everything he says I can see why some writers don't get paid:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mj5IV23g-fE

Quote from: Omega;969593Can we get back to the subject of gaming companies ripping off their designers or artists? Because for fucks sake this happens way too much and seems to be increasing. (I know it probably isnt. But the amount of reports is climbing.)

GOO, FFG, SJG, Atlas, Hasbro, FGU, WW, GW, and god knows how many little companies.

Quote from: J.L. Duncan;969610I'd be more interested in seeing links to go with those company names...

As J.L. says, citation needed, please.

Quote from: J.L. Duncan;969610I'd be more interested in seeing links to go with those company names...

Some you can look up. GOO comes to mind right off and theres still bad blood over that. Others I know of personally. Atlas and SJG were two where they tried to stiff the artists. SJG is the surprising one. But I knew the artist who worked for them and he still holds a grudge.

As I noted in another thread. I just dont understand it sometimes. Why some companies do the underhanded things they do.

And this isnt even getting into the absolute screwover of Supremacy. A board game yes. But its still theft.

Quote from: Omega;969652Some you can look up. GOO comes to mind right off and theres still bad blood over that. Others I know of personally. Atlas and SJG were two where they tried to stiff the artists. SJG is the surprising one. But I knew the artist who worked for them and he still holds a grudge.

As I noted in another thread. I just dont understand it sometimes. Why some companies do the underhanded things they do.

And this isnt even getting into the absolute screwover of Supremacy. A board game yes. But its still theft.

I'm not aware of most of the controversies. So I have no idea where to start. Since you are asserting the problem (as you seem to know about it), why not include some links?

Quote from: Omega;969652As I noted in another thread. I just dont understand it sometimes. Why some companies do the underhanded things they do.

And as I've noted very often. Assertions are better with evidence. That's how I'd prefer them.

Quote from: J.L. Duncan;969798I'm not aware of most of the controversies. So I have no idea where to start. Since you are asserting the problem (as you seem to know about it), why not include some links?

Because I've posted it before and Im not posting it again, and then again when the next "Publishers screw over someone" thread pops up. I am not digging through nearly ten years of threads with a barely functional search AGAIN, just because you are every so skeptical your favourite company might have been dealing dirty.

And to add to the list theres WOTCs screwover of WizKids.

Quote from: J.L. Duncan;969799And as I've noted very often. Assertions are better with evidence. That's how I'd prefer them.

And as I've noted very often. Look it up yourself. You might find a few skeletons in closets even I dont know of.

Quote from: Omega;969803Because I've posted it before and Im not posting it again, and then again when the next "Publishers screw over someone" thread pops up. I am not digging through nearly ten years of threads with a barely functional search AGAIN, just because you are every so skeptical your favourite company might have been dealing dirty.

And to add to the list theres WOTCs screwover of WizKids.

Well, How about a link to where you posted it? Did you post it here? Because if it was ten years ago... That would be strange beings that the join date of your handle is Sept 2013...

And I don't have a "favorite Company," except... the company I keep.

But for the record I'll generally ignore you from here on out. No worries.

Allegations without evidence. So, Internet SOP.

To be fair, doing an internet search of "Guardians of Order not paying authors" isn't very hard.

I'm not convinced this is a "new" thing. RPG business is a cottage industry, outside of a few major players. There are more RPG operations now than ever (totally bullshit claim from the side of my neck) - and given the relative obscurity of how one endeavors in such salt-mines where the bar is set so low in terms of producing a game today, it stands to reason that a lot of these producers are not experienced (though some might be).

Conversely being a writer for an RPG has a fairly low bar as well. I'm willing to believe in most cases this is simply a lack of experience and professionalism on both parts. It's easy to blame the publisher, because ultimately the money comes them. But if you're going to work for yourself as a writer/creator - it's your job to keep your eyes on the ball and protect your own interests. Being professional means taking every step of the process seriously - this is your time and effort. It's worth exactly what the market will bear - if you don't value it, then don't be shocked that people turn your trash into gold for themselves. Because that's what you're treating your product like when you don't protect your interest in it.

I know there are real creepo's out there with bad intentions among game publishers. That's why discussions like these are important. I'm hesitant to lump them all together when some of these incidents may be explained in other ways. Again - the best way to resolve these issues is to be professional. If you don't know what that means, then you are in for a rough ride at some point.

Quote from: Baron Opal;969846To be fair, doing an internet search of "Guardians of Order not paying authors" isn't very hard.

To be fair, this guy claims to be in the know yet declines to back up his allegations. Again, Internet SOP. Not my job to prove your claim for you.

Quote from: Baron Opal;969846To be fair, doing an internet search of "Guardians of Order not paying authors" isn't very hard.

I just did - the first four results were various articles from The Guardian, and the fifth result was this thread.

Quote from: Baron Opal;969846To be fair, doing an internet search of "Guardians of Order not paying authors" isn't very hard.

And to be fair, defining that "GOO" is Guardians of the Order... Thank you. I had no idea what GOO was. And my overall point is that it adds to the discussion if things are defined or if possible referenced. Thought admittedly discussing other companies is a slight derail.
A response like: "I don't want to... Because I don't want to," is lame.

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;969868I just did - the first four results were various articles from The Guardian, and the fifth result was this thread.

And so did I... Nothing yet.

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;969868I just did - the first four results were various articles from The Guardian, and the fifth result was this thread.

Ha. Yes, you should put Guardians of Order in quotes (https://www.google.com/#safe=off&q=%22guardians+of+order%22+not+paying+authors&spf=1497894010388).

Quote from: Baron Opal;969879Ha. Yes, you should put Guardians of Order in quotes (https://www.google.com/#safe=off&q=%22guardians+of+order%22+not+paying+authors&spf=1497894010388).

This seems (https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/963033/mark-mackinnon-addresses-guardians-order-closure-c) to be an interesting thread on the topic if it hasn't been linked already.

Quote from: Omega;967319I dont know. He wouldnt say and I eventually got fed up with him complaining about being ripped off but refusing to name names "for fear of damaging his carreer" which means he was enabling the rip-off publisher to screw over someone else. He wasnt using his designer account so there was no way to just check.

Theres another publisher thats done it that I know of but I cant find the thread now. Mayfair I believe. But Im likely wrong.

I don't know about anything that allegedly happened at Mayfair Games, I would be very interested to hear about it however, and their current CEO Pete Fenlon, used to be the CEO of Iron Crown Enterprises, ICE, Publisher of both Middle Earth Roleplaying, as well as Rolemaster, and I do have a few words to share about that.

Before ICE went bankrupt in 1999 they went through 2-3 rough years. In 1995 I was offered a job as a writer for Rolemaster, however, declined that offer because Pete only offered 4c per word, with no profit sharing, royalties, or any other benefits, ...so hack contract writing. Monte Cook had already quit working for ICE in 1990, and from 1992-1995 I was making plenty of good money working for the DoD as a contractor just as they were prepping for Desert Storm and right after, and Pete offered me the chance to live waaaaayy below the poverty line just so I could write for Rolemaster and MERP. It was tempting just for the cred, but right about that time, Tolkien Enterprises pulled the ICE RPG license, and they only had Rolemaster and Terry Amthor's Shadow World. Now Terry had started ICE, but was no longer in charge of the company when it tanked, and that would be, of course, Pete.

In the 1999-2000 Bankruptcy proceedings I joined a group led by Stephen Lee to bid on the IP in Bankruptcy Court, and we bid almost into six figures but were outbid by another European group that Bruce and Heike had found that ensured they would get to continue working on the "New"  Rolemaster RPG. Considering they went into bankruptcy (and had not paid many of their other contract writers that had worked on MERP and delivered books that were published - There are at least two writers that I know personally, one of whom I see almost every day right now who have told me and confirmed outright they were never paid the royalties they were owed for the sales of the books they had written for ICE. ...So I was glad I didn't sign up to get screwed over like some of my friends did.

Later on I ran into Pete at GenCon, right when he started working for Mayfair in 2007, and caught him smack talking about me, to Larry Roznai (MayFair President) on the dealer room floor, even though he was the one who had tried to drive me into poverty, and had screwed over a couple of my writer friends, ....the fkin nerve of some people, eyyy?

Anyway in 2011 Bruce and Heike and their secret Euro partners ....and whomever else had outbid us in the bankruptcy proceedings managed to tank ICE yet again, and in yet another bid by Nicholas Caldwell (He was part of our 2000 bidding group), Nicholas got the rights to take over ICE, and he's been working on it since 2011, but the sneaky skulking behind the scenes, and the surprise coup-de-tat in the 2000 bankruptcy proceedings had driven off most of the quality gaming people in the U.S. with investment money, who were willing to sustain ICE until it achieved profitability. It was a complete & thorough RPG system with incredible depth and detail worth playing, but I sold my books in 2001 because of all of the deception and troublesome entanglements ICE had, ...owing their writers and all...

It is true, that Tolkien Enterprises didn't play nice when they pulled the MERP license from ICE, but even in their most troubled times in bankruptcy, ICE turned on their truest fans, who would have put everything they had into making Rolemaster and Shadow Worlds, and other IP awesome again. This whole episode was pretty much forgotten though, when just a couple months later WOTC released 3e and the d20 SRD, and all the Indy publishers that had not been working for ICE or TSR rushed in to start making d20 books.

Today, I can recommend Rolemaster, for fans who really like it, and for fans that want some in-depth verisimilitude for their RPG, because Nicholas Caldwell is running the show at Ice, and he is a quality act, and RoleMaster is a great game, but I'm personally past the time when I would enjoy playing that game.

I think I saw Larry Roznai last Saturday at Origins, but I don't remember seeing Pete. He's harder to spot these days though cause he had cut his long hair and beard a few years back (like 2011, or so, the last time I remember seeing him.)

What has Mayfair been doing lately? ...is something nefarious or disreputable? I'd be interested to know so I could warn others to steer clear.

Quote from: san dee jota;967833I dunno'.  I'll agree that "pay me or you don't get to play in my game" types go nowhere quick, but I'm sure there are people out there who have a hard time finding a reliable, good GM and -are- be willing to pay for the service.  I forget the guy's name, but there's at least one guy pulling ~$30k doing it full time.  He doesn't get benefits, and it's a pretty crummy sounding career for my tastes, but he's having fun and helping people meet like minded gamers (i.e. folks who can't find groups else wise).  Also, there's all those folks charging $XXXX to play a campaign with developers/writers/etc. as part of a Kickstarter reward tier (like... say... Exalted).

I mean, people -do- pay for GMing now, and it's not inherently assholish on the part of the GM.

(and now this whole thing reminds me of arguments about legalized prostitution.  But without the VD element I hope)

Eh, I saw games going for $10 just to attend a 4 hour slot at Origins this last weekend, It's the same at GenCon you know. Pay-to-Play is a thing. The GMs don't get that money though. The Conventions do. $1/hr per game is average ticket price at Origins, multiply that by 20 for your average gaming weekend, and then by about 14,000 for attendance, and pay-to-play is a profitable thing, and that's just for the RPGs.

And finally, concerning Onyx Games and the new Vampire games. I think they just got the Kiss of Death over on Medium, ...see for yourself...

https://medium.com/@vldarling/new-games-old-heartbreaks-60c469c5ea03
 (https://medium.com/@vldarling/new-games-old-heartbreaks-60c469c5ea03)

Quote from: GameDaddy;969929And finally, concerning Onyx Games and the new Vampire games. I think they just got the Kiss of Death over on Medium, ...see for yourself...

https://medium.com/@vldarling/new-games-old-heartbreaks-60c469c5ea03
 (https://medium.com/@vldarling/new-games-old-heartbreaks-60c469c5ea03)

That's the same person who was quoted in the Twitter convos and who's been posting on the old Exalted team's behalf.  I'm not really counting it as a new blow to either new WW or OP.

Honestly, from my understanding, the preview rules are doing a bigger job of hurting the new Vampire than anything anybody blogging on Medium could do.  But I haven't read it, just heard people complaining here and about.

That blog from Medium is very poorly argued. That author would also be triggered by the original Dracula novel, Let the Right One In and Interview with a Vampire.

All have strong subtextual and overt content regarding sexual assault and the murder and feeding on of children. If that content triggers you you should probably stay away from vampire stories and/or games about vampires in general.

I've been waiting a bit to drop this (related) deuce on this thread but...
For some interested and getting back on topic...

I wonder if the dev complaint team realizes that David A Hill is the same David A Hill Jr. who has mismanaged five or six out of seven Kickstarters. Link (https://www.kickstarter.com/profile/machineage/created)
Hard to blame a falling monkey for grabbing any branch available, but at the same time it doesn't exactly strengthen you position either.

As I said before no one is innocent in this whole thing.

Quote from: Dumarest;969844Allegations without evidence. So, Internet SOP.

Shit, it's not just internet. I'm a manager where I work and I'm constantly getting told by my director to write-up employees based on nothing more than rumors and hearsay. Fucking soul-crushing considering I work for a large Christian-based healthcare organization.

Quote from: HappyDaze;970348Shit, it's not just internet. I'm a manager where I work and I'm constantly getting told by my director to write-up employees based on nothing more than rumors and hearsay. Fucking soul-crushing considering I work for a large Christian-based healthcare organization.

Can't you just quote Matthew: "But I say this to you: offer no resistance to the wicked. On the contrary, if anyone hits you on the right cheek, offer him the other as well."

Quote from: Dumarest;970354Can't you just quote Matthew: "But I say this to you: offer no resistance to the wicked. On the contrary, if anyone hits you on the right cheek, offer him the other as well."

Sure, I could do that, but I don't think it would be very satisfying when my next stop turns out to be the hotseat in HR. It's definitely a job that requires a lot of drinking the company Kool-Aid, interspersed with a bit of shouting  "Oh Yeah!" even when inside you're thinking WTF? It's not really a place I want to be, but I'll keep my head down for another year or so while they pay for my Master's degree.

Looks like someone else tried to start a thread (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?805698-Can-we-talk-about-Onyx-Path-business-practices) on the topic over at TBP and it got closed (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?805698-Can-we-talk-about-Onyx-Path-business-practices&p=21177238#post21177238).

"Hey folks. We had to close a thread on this topic the last time it came up, for a couple of reasons."

Best not to mention them then.  Better to let people find out when they're causing problems for Op... er... the mods... er... the forums when they come up.

"On the side of open and honest modding"

The thread was closed and the links in the OP to the material in question were deleted by mod.

So I guess this isn't part of the open and honest modding you want?

"it was difficult for us to moderate a thread on these issues without an appearance of conflict of interest given how many of us have worked or still work for OP."

No shit.  Best to just silence all discussion on it.

"On the side of desperately wanting to set the record straight, but being bound by confidentiality and professional and personal concerns, I must also circumspectly add that there is a lot more going on than these one-sided sources indicate, and a little digging can offer some insight"  

So you all but call Holden and the others in that materials liars and say "there is a lot more going on", and then have nothing to back it up with.  

I mean, I get this is all "he said/he said" pretty much, but at least Holden's rant thread has specific quotes about specific things.  And -then- you have other people saying similar.  The best I've seen in rebuttal so far is FVB saying "they did right by me", which is good, but that doesn't mean OPP isn't screwing over other people.

"but I can't speak further."

The hell you can't.  You closed a thread and then made sure you got the last word in (I'm honestly a bit surprised more mods didn't jump in to get in their jabs, of course that would show their bias).  Want to be professional: just close the goddamn thread.

(sad thing: after watching Holden go SJW on Mark Hagen for daring to work with nuWW in any capacity, I almost couldn't care less what problems the little shit had with OPP.)

Quote from: san dee jota;970403I mean, I get this is all "he said/he said" pretty much, but at least Holden's rant thread has specific quotes about specific things.  And -then- you have other people saying similar.  The best I've seen in rebuttal so far is FVB saying "they did right by me", which is good, but that doesn't mean OPP isn't screwing over other people.

At base, I know about twenty people who would love to say shit about this and clear the air, but honestly, I'm not going to be the first person to do it.  I said what I feel comfortable saying without driving anybody under a bus.  And that's the same thing with the mod staff -- I'm not divulging anything private when I say some of the people getting badmouthed are mods at RPG.net, and some of the people doing the badmouthing are also mods at RPG.net.  There is no way to discuss the issue without somebody getting attacked, and not everybody deserves it.  So they're just shutting down discussion, I guess.  

The thing is, there are plenty of places to talk about it.  There's here, for example.  There's the imgur thread, the podcast site, there's Reddit, I don't know, maybe there's OP or WW or fan-forums, I don't keep up with that shit.  But there's literally no way for the conversation to be had because part of being a dedicated hobby person is sometimes you freelance and sometimes you also mod forums.  Sometimes there's a conflict.  (Like, you guys have been saying there's a conflict for years.  Even if I disagree with most of the examples people give, this is flat-out an example of one.)

But I suspect if the people involved have not stepped up to defend themselves or give the other side of the story by now, it's not going to happen, and I ain't going to be the guy to do it.  Ive said all I can feel comfortable saying without being caught in the same conflict everybody else is caught in.

Quote from: Future Villain Band;970408At base, I know about twenty people who would love to say shit about this and clear the air, but honestly, I'm not going to be the first person to do it.  I said what I feel comfortable saying without driving anybody under a bus.  And that's the same thing with the mod staff -- I'm not divulging anything private when I say some of the people getting badmouthed are mods at RPG.net, and some of the people doing the badmouthing are also mods at RPG.net.  There is no way to discuss the issue without somebody getting attacked, and not everybody deserves it.  So they're just shutting down discussion, I guess.

I see. There is no way that the truth can come out without at least one rpg.net mod looking bad. Better circle the wagons and bury discussion then.

Orwell would be proud.

Quote from: Dumarest;970354Can't you just quote Matthew: "But I say this to you: offer no resistance to the wicked. On the contrary, if anyone hits you on the right cheek, offer him the other as well."

That is one of the verses most commonly taken out of historical context to mean something entirely different from what it actually did.  (and it's a pet peeve of mine)

It's not saying to just let people beat on you - that'd be stupid.  And it'd be contradictory to things such as one of Jesus's disciples wearing a freakin' sword.

Culturally at the time, being slapped was done to insult someone in an argument.  You slapped someone with the back of the hand if they were an inferior.  (As Roman soldiers commonly did to Jews.)  You slapped them with the open hand if they were an equal

With the cultural/historical context in place - the verse basically means to go ahead and let people mock/insult you, but take it like a man and make them respect you when they do it!  (because if you show them your left cheek, they'd have to slap you open-handed as most Roman soldiers were right-handed)

It was basically telling them to do a peaceful resistance to the man (Roman man) keeping them down.

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;970550That is one of the verses most commonly taken out of historical context to mean something entirely different from what it actually did.  (and it's a pet peeve of mine)

It's not saying to just let people beat on you - that'd be stupid.

Culturally at the time, being slapped was done to insult someone in an argument.  You slapped someone with the back of the hand if they were an inferior such as a slave or servant.  You slapped them with the open hand if they were an equal.

With the historical context in place - the verse basically means to go ahead and let people mock/insult you, but take it like a man and make them respect you when they do it!  (because if they were slapping you with the back of their hand and you turn your cheek, they would then have to use the open hand to slap you again)

Subtlety not your strong suit then?

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;970550That is one of the verses most commonly taken out of historical context to mean something entirely different from what it actually did.  (and it's a pet peeve of mine)

It's not saying to just let people beat on you - that'd be stupid.  And it'd be contradictory to things such as one of Jesus's disciples wearing a freakin' sword.

Uh the passage is clearly metaphorical as Jesus speaks often through parables, but you seem to be forgetting this passage:

"And Jesus said unto him, Friend, why are you come? Then came they, and laid hands on Jesus, and took him.

And, behold, one of them who was with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest, and cut off his ear.

Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again your sword into its place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Think you that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?"

Quote from: Voros;970561Uh the passage is clearly metaphorical as Jesus speaks often through parables, but you seem to be forgetting this passage:

"And Jesus said unto him, Friend, why are you come? Then came they, and laid hands on Jesus, and took him.

And, behold, one of them who was with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest, and cut off his ear.

Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again your sword into its place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Think you that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?"

Right - because it was his time to get taken.

He didn't say "What the crap Peter!  You have a sword!?  I totally didn't notice it before now!"

Edit: He actually told them to buy swords if they didn't have them shortly before that scene.  That would have made no sense if he were a pacifist.

Luke 22:35-38

Then Jesus asked them, “When I sent you out without purse or bag or sandals, did you lack anything?” “Nothing,” they answered. 36“Now, however, He told them, “the one with a purse should take it, and likewise a bag; and the one without a sword should sell his cloak and buy one.  37 It is written: ‘And he was numbered with the transgressors’; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment.”

38 The disciples said, “See, Lord, here are two swords.”

“That’s enough!” he replied.

What a delightfully strange turn for this thread to take.

Quote from: Baulderstone;970571What a delightfully strange turn for this thread to take.

Sorry - as I said - it's a pet peeve of mine.

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;970573Sorry - as I said - it's a pet peeve of mine.

No need to apologize. I enjoy a little thread drift.

Right Jesus wasn't pacifist, obviously he was a tough guy warrior. I forgot all those passages where he runs out of bubblegum and kicks people's asses. :rolleyes:

And please don't go quoting the passage where he says he's a sword, metaphor dude metaphor.

Course there are many contradictory parables throughout the Gospels just as there are throughout the Bible, one can always play dueling passages to make whatever point one wants. I guess we're OT and this is the game forum so let's just leave it be.

Regarding Hagen and WoD. Isn't this the same system that released Montreal by Night? Nothing triggering there I guess.

Quote from: tenbones;969112I see a potential RPG here... Comic Clan vs. Goth Clan vs. Anime Waifu Clan all in a high-school. Toss in some pirates and ninja - maybe some devil-worshipping cultists. Maybe it's just my allegy meds talking...

And cat girls, and aliens, and alien cat girl princesses. It exists ... Ninja High School RPG (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/205381/Ben-Dunns-Ninja-High-School-the-Anime-and-Manga-RPG), based on WEG's d6 System.

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;97056338 The disciples said, See, Lord, here are two swords.

That s enough! he replied.

Holy fuck! Jesus was a 4e Ranger???

Keep it on RPGs.

It is pretty amazing the way TBP shuts down any discussion of Onyx because it is 'rumour and hearsay' but let the accusations fly when it comes to Zak. Suddenly the standards are adjusted.

Quote from: Voros;970870It is pretty amazing the way TBP shuts down any discussion of Onyx because it is 'rumour and hearsay' but let the accusations fly when it comes to Zak. Suddenly the standards are adjusted.

More amazing is the rationale.

"We'd be biased as hell in moderating this, we won't let impartial mods without connections to OPP do it for us, so we'll close the threads because we don't want people to think we're biased.  You can totally go back to questioning any other company though, as the mod staff doesn't care about them."

Quote from: Voros;970870It is pretty amazing the way TBP shuts down any discussion of Onyx because it is 'rumour and hearsay' but let the accusations fly when it comes to Zak. Suddenly the standards are adjusted.

They have recently been cracking down on Zak speculation there too. Most recent Zak attacks are aimed at WW as well, and that's too close to OP to be allowed. OP is in business with WW, and WW does business with Zak. The mods can see which way the flames are headed in the current guilt-by-association game and are desperately trying to put them out, but I think they are a good ten years too late for that.

Who/what is Zak? What did he/it/they allegedly do? Make an elf game they don't approve of?

Quote from: Dumarest;970922Who/what is Zak? What did he/it/they allegedly do? Make an elf game they don't approve of?

Here. (http://falsemachine.blogspot.com/2017/02/a-timeline-of-zak-wars.html)  (I think it's the least biased overview of the story)

Short version: a guy says stuff, and people don't like what he says.  A lot.  Which provides more ongoing drama in the RPG community than any sane person could stomach (however you feel about the guy).  It creates drama for people based solely on how they react to the drama, it's so awful.  

He also occasionally writes some interesting stuff for actual game use, so there's that.

Quote from: san dee jota;970938Here. (http://falsemachine.blogspot.com/2017/02/a-timeline-of-zak-wars.html)  (I think it's the least biased overview of the story)

Short version: a guy says stuff, and people don't like what he says.  A lot.  Which provides more ongoing drama in the RPG community than any sane person could stomach (however you feel about the guy).  It creates drama for people based solely on how they react to the drama, it's so awful.  

He also occasionally writes some interesting stuff for actual game use, so there's that.

And even that list is a fraction of the drama Zak has been involved in. But yeah, he does do some interesting game stuff.

Quote from: san dee jota;970938Here. (http://falsemachine.blogspot.com/2017/02/a-timeline-of-zak-wars.html)  (I think it's the least biased overview of the story)

Short version: a guy says stuff, and people don't like what he says.  A lot.  Which provides more ongoing drama in the RPG community than any sane person could stomach (however you feel about the guy).  It creates drama for people based solely on how they react to the drama, it's so awful.  

He also occasionally writes some interesting stuff for actual game use, so there's that.

I guess I'm glad I've never heard of any of these people and I'm not part of "the RPG community," which apparently means people with way too much time on their hands to be arguing about Dungeons & Dragons across multiple fora and social media. Wow.

After reading all that stuff, I really want a CW teen drama based on that incestuous clique of RPG people. That's pretty much what it sounds like anyway.

Quote from: Dumarest;970966After reading all that stuff, I really want a CW teen drama based on that incestuous clique of RPG people. That's pretty much what it sounds like anyway.

I momentarily thought it might be fun to try and cast this fictional show using real actors. Then I realized I am old and know nothing about teen drama actors these days. The only names coming to mind are probably in their 40s now.

Quote from: Dumarest;970965I guess I'm glad I've never heard of any of these people and I'm not part of "the RPG community," which apparently means people with way too much time on their hands to be arguing about Dungeons & Dragons across multiple fora and social media. Wow.

Almost to a T, all of roleplaying drama involves self-important mice jockeying for influence/prominence and arguing over the crumbs of an already niche industry. Of course, I am here, spending my free time on RPG-related social media (and amongst plenty of drama and bruised egos every few days), so who am I to talk?

Quote from: Baulderstone;970971I momentarily thought it might be fun to try and cast this fictional show using real actors. Then I realized I am old and know nothing about teen drama actors these days. The only names coming to mind are probably in their 40s now.

If it makes you feel any better, all I can come up with is people from Beverly Hills 90210 and Melrose Place. I'm old, too. I just know from seeing commercials that the CW seems to specialize in that sort of show.

Starring
Luke Perry as Zak
Shannen Doherty as Shannon Appelcline
Jason Priestley as another person I don't know
Tori Spelling as whoever has a rich dad who can finance the show

with
Special Guest Star Heather Locklear as somebody else in that article

Quote from: Willie the Duck;970972Almost to a T, all of roleplaying drama involves self-important mice jockeying for influence/prominence and arguing over the crumbs of an already niche industry. Of course, I am here, spending my free time on RPG-related social media (and amongst plenty of drama and bruised egos every few days), so who am I to talk?

Maybe we can cast you as the kid who gets some lethal disease all the main characters learn about in a Very Special Episode where they all befriend you until you die and then the show never mentions you again.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;970972Almost to a T, all of roleplaying drama involves self-important mice jockeying for influence/prominence and arguing over the crumbs of an already niche industry. Of course, I am here, spending my free time on RPG-related social media (and amongst plenty of drama and bruised egos every few days), so who am I to talk?

Somebody once summed up RPG internet community drama: "Dozens of dollars are at stake!"

Quote from: san dee jota;970977Somebody once summed up RPG internet community drama: "Dozens of dollars are at stake!"

That is hilarious. :p

Quote from: Baulderstone;970971I momentarily thought it might be fun to try and cast this fictional show using real actors. Then I realized I am old and know nothing about teen drama actors these days. The only names coming to mind are probably in their 40s now.

Find anyone who was ever on Glee or a Disney Channel Show and is now looking for work.  Now you're set.

That is funnier than you know.

Quote from: san dee jota;970979Find anyone who was ever on Glee or a Disney Channel Show and is now looking for work.  Now you're set.

That's still largely outside my frame of reference. I only know the Disney Channel starlets that have become pop stars like Miley Cyrus, Ariana Grande and Selena Gomez, and I don't really know why I know about them.

Miley Cyrus is Zak S.
Ariana Grande is Shannon Appelcline.
Selena Gomez is the RPG Pundit.

I don't think this is working...

I assumed we'd cast Daniel Day-Lewis as RPGPundit.

Quote from: Baulderstone;970986That's still largely outside my frame of reference. I only know the Disney Channel starlets that have become pop stars like Miley Cyrus, Ariana Grande and Selena Gomez, and I don't really know why I know about them.

You probably know them the same way I do. You hear their names and know they make records and music videos. You may not have actually heard any of their music or seen their videos. You know they're famous. And that's about it.

Quote from: Dumarest;970987I assumed we'd cast Daniel Day-Lewis as RPGPundit.

No no no. This has to be embarrassing for all sides. How about Wilford Brimley shouting "Swine" with the same inflection he does for "Diabetes?"

Quote from: Dumarest;970987I assumed we'd cast Daniel Day-Lewis as RPGPundit.

He just retired this week, so that's out.

The idea of him in a CW teen drama would at least momentarily entertaining though.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;970989No no no. This has to be embarrassing for all sides. How about Wilford Brimley shouting "Swine" with the same inflection he does for "Diabetes?"

That's much better.

It's funny that people are suggesting Shannon Dougherty or Ariana Grande to play Shannon Appelcline. I mean, isn't Applecline a dude?? The dude that wrote those Dungeons & Designers books?

Quote from: WanderingMonster;971048It's funny that people are suggesting Shannon Dougherty or Ariana Grande to play Shannon Appelcline. I mean, isn't Applecline a dude?? The dude that wrote those Dungeons & Designers books?

I know that. I was just working from three women to cast with, so it didn't have a lot of options.

Quote from: WanderingMonster;971048It's funny that people are suggesting Shannon Dougherty or Ariana Grande to play Shannon Appelcline. I mean, isn't Applecline a dude?? The dude that wrote those Dungeons & Designers books?

No idea who he or she is. I just saw the name Shannon. But nowadays anything goes. We can do stunt casting.

Quote from: WanderingMonster;971048It's funny that people are suggesting Shannon Dougherty or Ariana Grande to play Shannon Appelcline. I mean, isn't Applecline a dude?? The dude that wrote those Dungeons & Designers books?

That didn't stop Tilda Swinton from being cast as the Ancient One.