Quote from: J.L. Duncan;967446Hopefully, the link was Ellison...

What kind of links you think I would be using?

This also shows off the problem of game designers wanting to be payed per word rather than quality. Theres been a vocal faction over in board gaming demanding to be payed per word to. Which we keep pointing out is utterly mentally stunted as the idea in board game rules is to get the idea across in LESS words. Not more.

Even in RPGs this can hold true. Otherwise you end up with bloated books that take forever to tell you even the simplest of rules or are more prose than rules.

Quote from: Omega;967458Otherwise you end up with bloated books that take forever to tell you even the simplest of rules or are more prose than rules.

Well, we are talking about Exalted.

Quote from: Omega;967458This also shows off the problem of game designers wanting to be payed per word rather than quality. Theres been a vocal faction over in board gaming demanding to be payed per word to. Which we keep pointing out is utterly mentally stunted as the idea in board game rules is to get the idea across in LESS words. Not more.

Even in RPGs this can hold true. Otherwise you end up with bloated books that take forever to tell you even the simplest of rules or are more prose than rules.

That would be the case if there wasn't some ceiling on words.  But the way it's supposed to work is that the developer creates an outline that determines a) how big the book is supposed to be, b) what it covers, c) which writers are handling which sections, and d) how many words those sections are.  They do this because they're also dealing with art or having an art developer do that, the company has to decide whether it's going to be hardcover or softcover and how big, etc.  This stuff is figured out way before anybody starts writing.  

I got assigned 25k in The Outcaste to handle the Lost Eggs chapter.  I got a contract and an NDA.  I got a writer's guide which told me which words were capitalized and which were not.  I got a ten page or so outline, with included a two page summary of what my section was to include, and the same outline described what the other authors were assigned and their word counts so that we didn't double-dip.  If I wrote 45k, I didn't get paid for 45k, what happened is the developer had to cut 20k of my shit so it could fit, and I got paid for the 25k I was contracted for. Conceivably, if somebody wrote some William Shakespeare shit and it went over, the developer could make room somehow, or cut down somebody else's chapter, or whatever, but at the end of the day, that's not the way it normally works.  You get contracted for 25k, you get paid for 25k.  If they end up not using your section for whatever reason -- you get a kill fee.  

If you paid people by "quality," then unscrupulous dicks would hire you to write 25k, tell you it sucks, and meddle with your pay.  It's not a novel.  These are typically set up like textbooks.  You're contracted to write a specific section at a specific wordcount.  The developer may ask you in the lead up if there's something that really floats your boat so they can assign you something you're passionate about, but at the end of the day, it's a professional assignment.

Quote from: Baulderstone;967301Getting people to write for free on something they love is so common that it was already an old cliche among writers long before roleplaying games existed. In the age of the Internet, it is really common. I've had multiple friends over the years that have written for prominent websites in return for "exposure" and a shot at a paid position that would never really be offered.

That's true of any creative field.  A lot of people enjoy the work and are willing to do it for free to get a bit of glory - and that's fine even if it does make it tougher for the paid pros.  *tear*

There are hundreds of community theaters where actors work for nothing or even help pay for the production costs.  Does that make it tougher for anyone who wants to put on a show where the actors would get paid decent wages?  Of course it does.  Those pros have to put on a production enough better that it makes audiences willing to shell out way more $ for tickets than the $10-15 for community theater.

Now - this in no way excuses a publisher from lying about how much they'll pay a writer.  But writing for free doesn't make you a moron so long as you do it as a hobby and don't actually ever expect to get paid.

Quote from: Omega;967458This also shows off the problem of game designers wanting to be payed per word rather than quality. Theres been a vocal faction over in board gaming demanding to be payed per word to. Which we keep pointing out is utterly mentally stunted as the idea in board game rules is to get the idea across in LESS words. Not more.

Even in RPGs this can hold true. Otherwise you end up with bloated books that take forever to tell you even the simplest of rules or are more prose than rules.

Coincidentally, I was talking to my father last night, and he was talking about a real estate deal where a guy was obsessed with looking at the price per square foot over all other considerations. The guy was making an offer on a property that satisfied none of his actual requirements because it basically had the the best price per pound.

I brought up RPGs, and how some gamers obsess over the page count when it comes to pricing, not taking into account things like time spent on playtesting and design or how a polished design might actually lead to a book getting shorter. Also the fact that when you are buying a game, the amount of time you spend playing it has no clear correlation to the length of the book.

It's like if we bought software based on how many megabytes it took up.

Quote from: Future Villain Band;967463That would be the case if there wasn't some ceiling on words.  But the way it's supposed to work is that the developer creates an outline that determines a) how big the book is supposed to be, b) what it covers, c) which writers are handling which sections, and d) how many words those sections are.  They do this because they're also dealing with art or having an art developer do that, the company has to decide whether it's going to be hardcover or softcover and how big, etc.  This stuff is figured out way before anybody starts writing.

That's also a good point, but wasn't Holden actually the line developer for Exalted? Seems if your line developer is being paid (or failing to get paid, depending on the who is telling the truth) by the word it might lead to them being encouraged to develop a game that is an enormous bloated mess.

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;967466That's true of any creative field.  A lot of people enjoy the work and are willing to do it for free to get a bit of glory - and that's fine even if it does make it tougher for the paid pros.  *tear*

There are hundreds of community theaters where actors work for nothing or even help pay for the production costs.  Does that make it tougher for anyone who wants to put on a show where the actors would get paid decent wages?  Of course it does.  Those pros have to put on a production enough better that it makes audiences willing to shell out way more $ for tickets than the $10-15 for community theater.

Sure, I have some acting in my background, as does my mother, so I am well aware of that. I also do a lot of volunteer work for art education, so while I see myself as being charitable, someone might see me as ruining their chance to make a living in art education.

QuoteNow - this in no way excuses a publisher from lying about how much they'll pay a writer.  But writing for free doesn't make you a moron so long as you do it as a hobby and don't actually ever expect to get paid.

Complete agreement. I was just responding to people in the thread that were amazed anyone would write for free by pointing out that it isn't an unusual situation at all.

Quote from: Baulderstone;967471I also do a lot of volunteer work for art education, so while I see myself as being charitable, someone might see me as ruining their chance to make a living in art education.

Harlan Ellison is right, all those pesky GMs running games for free, ruining the opportunity for professional Game Mastering...

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;967553Harlan Ellison is right, all those pesky GMs running games for free, ruining the opportunity for professional Game Mastering...

Don't even start. People are already doing pay to play.

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;967553Harlan Ellison is right, all those pesky GMs running games for free, ruining the opportunity for professional Game Mastering...

.....

Quote from: Krimson;967558Don't even start. People are already doing pay to play.

Dang! That's what I've been doing wrong, for all these years -letting people pay for free! I can fix that; should I charge by the hour of game time, or a flat-rate per player per game session? 'Basic' or 'Premium' game experience? Charge extra for use of the miniatures? Stock the popular games for sale? Sell snacks? XP for cash payments? Dice rentals? Make the big money off the concessions stand in the corner of the game room?

Inquiring minds want to know...

People pay lots of money on $5-$10 dollar subscriptions/month here and there they don't even use that often.  They pay $5 for a Starbucks and $10-$20 on a movie ticket.

When I was back in college, there was a GM who was going to school full-time and working two jobs to pay for it, he literally could not afford to both sleep and GM.  He offered to reduce his hours at his lower paying job and use that to run stuff and get ready, if players were willing to step up and pay a few bucks per session to cover his time.  He's still take a hit, but it wouldn't be economic suicide.  For a while, everyone looked at him like he was crazy, so he stopped GMing at went to work and school and didn't really have any leisure time.  Eventually, people decided to have the group pitch in 5 or 10 bucks a session and cover the drinks and snacks.  He started the campaign up again, we all had fun and no one felt ripped off.

Having players pitch in to help with costs or new product purchases is nothing new.

Demanding the players pay you... thats a different matter.

Quote from: CRKrueger;967671People pay lots of money on $5-$10 dollar subscriptions/month here and there they don't even use that often.  They pay $5 for a Starbucks and $10-$20 on a movie ticket.

When I was back in college, there was a GM who was going to school full-time and working two jobs to pay for it, he literally could not afford to both sleep and GM.  He offered to reduce his hours at his lower paying job and use that to run stuff and get ready, if players were willing to step up and pay a few bucks per session to cover his time.  He's still take a hit, but it wouldn't be economic suicide.  For a while, everyone looked at him like he was crazy, so he stopped GMing at went to work and school and didn't really have any leisure time.  Eventually, people decided to have the group pitch in 5 or 10 bucks a session and cover the drinks and snacks.  He started the campaign up again, we all had fun and no one felt ripped off.

How much time was he spending GMing?! I occasionally get up around 15 hours/week when classes aren't running, but that's across several campaigns. A single campaign is about 5 hours tops (my Sunday players will start arriving ca 1pm today and leaving ca 6pm). Was he spending tons of time on prep work?

People will pay for anything if you can make them value it. People pay extra for Los Angeles tap water to be put in plastic bottles and labeled with a fancy fake name like "Pure Evergreen Springs." Damn that freedom of choice!

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;967553Harlan Ellison is right, all those pesky GMs running games for free, ruining the opportunity for professional Game Mastering...

Quote from: Krimson;967558Don't even start. People are already doing pay to play.

Like for real? The hell I mean there A difference to players kicking in for supplements or covering the cost of snakes if the DM pickes them up / brings them is one thing but actully trying to make money on the players at your table sounds and feels douchey as hell.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;967590Dang! That's what I've been doing wrong, for all these years -letting people pay for free! I can fix that; should I charge by the hour of game time, or a flat-rate per player per game session? 'Basic' or 'Premium' game experience? Charge extra for use of the miniatures? Stock the popular games for sale? Sell snacks? XP for cash payments? Dice rentals? Make the big money off the concessions stand in the corner of the game room?

Inquiring minds want to know...

Good post funny as hell.

Quote from: CRKrueger;967671People pay lots of money on $5-$10 dollar subscriptions/month here and there they don't even use that often.  They pay $5 for a Starbucks and $10-$20 on a movie ticket.

When I was back in college, there was a GM who was going to school full-time and working two jobs to pay for it, he literally could not afford to both sleep and GM.  He offered to reduce his hours at his lower paying job and use that to run stuff and get ready, if players were willing to step up and pay a few bucks per session to cover his time.  He's still take a hit, but it wouldn't be economic suicide.  For a while, everyone looked at him like he was crazy, so he stopped GMing at went to work and school and didn't really have any leisure time.  Eventually, people decided to have the group pitch in 5 or 10 bucks a session and cover the drinks and snacks.  He started the campaign up again, we all had fun and no one felt ripped off.

Now this is a little diferent here you have players kicking in some money so he can literally afford to DM that's a little different then saying you wana play my game you need to pony up the dosh.

Quote from: Omega;967673Having players pitch in to help with costs or new product purchases is nothing new.

Demanding the players pay you... thats a different matter.

Agreed actually in my old group it got to a point where people just bought things and made sure they showed up at the game even if they where not there so that it was available if needed.
To be fair that was 3.5 so its a bit different.