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Author Topic: Onyx Path not paying freelancers (so -that's- what the Exalted Dev turn over was for)  (Read 20138 times)

jeff37923

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Quote from: J.L. Duncan;967315

And that folks, is just one of the reasons why I love Harlan Ellison.
"Meh."

Dumarest

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Quote from: jeff37923;967329
And that folks, is just one of the reasons why I love Harlan Ellison.


Ha, that is fantastic and he's so dead-on.

Dumarest

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Quote from: Dave R;967316
Payment by royalties is pretty standard in publishing.  Twice a year off previous half-year's sales is fairly common in non-gaming publishing for instance, though I don't know the details for Onyx Path.  Lag between submitting a draft, time for editing and printing, and six months after release date can be pretty long.  If the publisher then doesn't bother to cut a check, what's your recourse?  If you're very unlucky you might already be into them for two or three books.

So are advances and by the word and payment on delivery. If you agree to defer payment and then don't get paid and don't know what your recourse is and keep writing for free, you've established that your actual pay rate is zero. I've worked in publishing. I'd be more than happy to have a fool work on spec. It's one of the oldest scams in Hollywood. Mark Evanier's http://www.newsfromme.com web site goes into this in great detail.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2017, 09:56:20 AM by Dumarest »

J.L. Duncan

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Here is the gist of what I wrote on it. The rest is on my blog. Meh

The fact that Holden' notes 90k words were not being paid for is a surprise in only that he wrote that many, without being paid... (that's my professional asshole perspective) On Twitter (imgur post above) the number is 150K for the Orichalcum Edition, which is still in production from the Kickstarter...

I'm I the only one to think that a line developer... developing lines (words) that aren't published in the bulk of the production is as much a problem for OPP, as it might be the writer... And now that writer is no more? It doesn't bode well for either; the company or the writer.

This is the RPG Edition of throw enough shit and some of it will stick, but that's not to say whether it has merit or not. On one hand we have a number of freelancers outing (of note, recently let go or no longer working for) the company, on the other we have the company and a number of freelancers defending said company. The real problem is that ethics and professionalism aren't the same dance.

tenbones

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Quote from: Dumarest;967293
Perhaps I was unclear: I meant  why  did these guys turn in  work for free when they were apparently supposed to be paid. There is a huge difference between an OSR labor of love where you never expected to make a dime off it and working for a company for free when you've apparently got a contract specifying you are getting paid.


The reason why is simple: They're not professionals. It *is* different if you're working on your own stuff as a labor of love with no expectation of getting paid. But then I wouldn't consider that a professional move either. It isn't. It's a labor of love and if it makes money - nifty.

A professional is someone that brings their skills to the market and produces a product/service that others are willing to buy. If you're willing to get suckered to do the heavy lifting for someone else to profit - you are, by definition, unprofessional. Because you're not going to survive on that model, nor does it show any maturity of character to realize that your skills are bankable. There is the corollary effect that those that work for free value their work exactly that much (i.e. they don't).

I take no satisfaction in people losing jobs etc. That they would write 100k+ words without a contract with the *assumption* they'd be paid paints them as complete idiots.

Dumarest

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Quote from: Dave R;967316
If you're very unlucky you might already be into them for two or three books.


If you wrote a book and didn't get paid for it, I have a hard time feeling sorry for you for agreeing to write additional books for the same company or person. That's just stupid. What's that "fool me once, shame on you" line?

crkrueger

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Quote from: jeff37923;967329
And that folks, is just one of the reasons why I love Harlan Ellison.


That was undiluted awesome.
Even the the "cutting edge" storygamers for all their talk of narrative, plot, and drama are fucking obsessed with the god damned rules they use. - Estar

Yes, Sean Connery's thumb does indeed do megadamage. - Spinachcat

Isuldur is a badass because he stopped Sauron with a broken sword, but Iluvatar is the badass because he stopped Sauron with a hobbit. -Malleus Arianorum

"Tangency Edition" D&D would have no classes or races, but 17 genders to choose from. -TristramEvans

Darrin Kelley

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I won't shed a tear for any of the Onyx Path crowd. They have always been unprofessional jerks since they were with White Wolf.

I chose a lot of years ago not to reward any of them further with my money. And it seems once again that I was proven 100% right in making that choice.

Seeing them treat their talent as bad as they treat their customers doesn't bring me any joy. It brings me no sense of vindication. It just shows me how stupid people can be. In supporting pure unprofessionalism.

As a publisher, myself. It just makes me look on with horror and disgust.

But it really gets me that they have the audacity to be critical of what the Paradox version of White Wolf is doing with the product lines Paradox are the owners of. It's absolutely hypocritical.
 

Baulderstone

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Quote from: Darrin Kelley;967415
But it really gets me that they have the audacity to be critical of what the Paradox version of White Wolf is doing with the product lines Paradox are the owners of. It's absolutely hypocritical.

Has anyone from OP been critical of Paradox?

Darrin Kelley

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Quote from: Baulderstone;967429
Has anyone from OP been critical of Paradox?

Over on TBP. You can find it amidst the threads of endless whining about Paradox White Wolf exerting creative control and direction over a couple of supplements.
 

Baulderstone

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Quote from: Darrin Kelley;967433
Over on TBP. You can find it amidst the threads of endless whining about Paradox White Wolf exerting creative control and direction over a couple of supplements.

So, you can't name anybody from OP that was complaining about it? I'm not going to dig through months of threads.

From what I recall, the mods seemed more interested in locking threads complaining about Zak and Hite working with White Wolf than in getting in on the complaints.

Snowman0147

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They are whining at Onyx Path forums as well.  None of the staff of course, but OP fans are no fans of the new White Wolf.

J.L. Duncan

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The thing is... This whole debacle paints the writers as victims of ignorance, while OPP was more than willing to take what was serviceable. Still:

Through the freelancers involved likely feel crapped on (and that may be the case) and part of me "feels" for those guys, the fact that Holden doesn't put together that 90K words here and 150K words there, says more about his (speculation) abilities to produce what OPP wanted/expected, than it does about OPP "nefarious" business practices. There is also a freelancer on the Facebook post who redacted her work from OPP, but it isn't clear why.

I had my own mini-tantrum with Palladium Books. But, when I had a bit of time I came to realize I allowed that (unfortunate situation) to happen, just as much as Palladium facilitated it. Admittedly, my situation wasn't at the scope of what is here (not even close), but it sure smells similar.

Snowman0147

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Okay posted a email and the two links to White Wolf as promise.  Let see if this works.

J.L. Duncan

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Quote from: Snowman0147;967443
Okay posted a email and the two links to White Wolf as promise.  Let see if this works.

Hopefully, the link was Ellison...