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Author Topic: Onyx Path not paying freelancers (so -that's- what the Exalted Dev turn over was for)  (Read 16254 times)

Snowman0147

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Quote from: Mostlyjoe;967277
Snowman...what's your issue with David Hill? Seriously, what's the backstory here?

What accusing innocent people of being sexists, misogynists, and transphobic in a attempt to ruin their careers isn't good enough reason to hate David A. Hill?  These freelancers of Onyx Path are not good people and tried to screw over other people.

However, your right there is a backstory.  David and I used to be some what friends.  Hell we had chats about what should be done about the Chronicles of Darkness before it became known as the Chronicles of Darkness.  Good conversations on what the system should be like.  Hell I even bought some of his games from his own publishing.

Then came Anita Sarkeeisan.  Oh at first the con artist trick me, but thank god I was broke.  Oh god I was so morally outraged and fucking stupid back then.  Point was I found out eventually that she was a shady bitch and tried to warn David about it because that is what friends do.  

What did I get for my trouble?  The entire David A. Hill cult pretty much dog piled me and David just let them do it.  He stated he is a friend with Anita and just let them chase me out.  Pretty much found out the hard way that David was no friend.  So at that point I became very aware at the lies and bullshit David can pull because he did it to me.

Baulderstone

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Quote from: Snowman0147;967283
What accusing innocent people of being sexists, misogynists, and transphobic in a attempt to ruin their careers isn't good enough reason to hate David A. Hill?  These freelancers of Onyx Path are not good people and tried to screw over other people.

However, your right there is a backstory.  David and I used to be some what friends.  Hell we had chats about what should be done about the Chronicles of Darkness before it became known as the Chronicles of Darkness.  Good conversations on what the system should be like.  Hell I even bought some of his games from his own publishing.

Then came Anita Sarkeeisan.  Oh at first the con artist trick me, but thank god I was broke.  Oh god I was so morally outraged and fucking stupid back then.  Point was I found out eventually that she was a shady bitch and tried to warn David about it because that is what friends do.  

What did I get for my trouble?  The entire David A. Hill cult pretty much dog piled me and David just let them do it.  He stated he is a friend with Anita and just let them chase me out.  Pretty much found out the hard way that David was no friend.  So at that point I became very aware at the lies and bullshit David can pull because he did it to me.


Wow. An actual origin story. I don't have one of those.

Dumarest

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Quote from: JeremyR;967281
As to why people are willing to work for free, look at all the old D&D stuff made for OSR. Much of that is just hobbyists doing it for free (or sometimes at a loss). If some company were somehow granted the rights to AD&D and OD&D and wanted to recruit OSR people to produce "official" new old modules and such, I'm sure they would have legions of volunteers. Same case for the old White Wolf games, they have tons of devoted fans.

Perhaps I was unclear: I meant  why  did these guys turn in  work for free when they were apparently supposed to be paid. There is a huge difference between an OSR labor of love where you never expected to make a dime off it and working for a company for free when you've apparently got a contract specifying you are getting paid.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2017, 11:48:45 PM by Dumarest »

Snowman0147

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Quote from: Dumarest;967293
I thought I clearly meant why these guys worked free when they were apparently supposed to be paid. There is a huge difference between an OSR labor of love where you never expected to make a dime off it and working for a company for free when you've apparently got a contract specifying you are getting paid.

From what I had been told one of those Exalted devs was suffering a life threating illness, but the chance to work on Exalted 3rd edition is once in a life time.

I am not even going to dignify that with sarcasm.  The word fan came from fanatic for a reason.  It is wise to never become a fan of any thing.

Lord Darkview

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My guess, as I said during the podcast, was ignorance born of youthful idealism.  The developers were elevated fans who had only gotten to work on a handful of supplements before suddenly being offered the opportunity to become developers.  They may have not understood the paradigm of contract before payment with a specified number of words to be submitted and payment per word up to the specified amount, nor why that paradigm existed.  They were novices, ignorant of how badly they could be taken advantage of.  The shift to OPP (versus what was originally Transmedia) might also have lulled them into a false sense of security: CCP seemingly hadn't screwed them over in the past, so they extended trust to OPP when they should have viewed it as a new and unknown entity.
Looking for a place to chat about Exalted, Godbound, and similar games in real time? Check out the Ebon Dragon's Rostrum on Discord.

Omega

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White Wolf isnt much better than OP.

But this those screwover of the designers/writers on a KS isnt new unfortunately.

Last year we had a publisher screw a designer out of the entirety of the KS campaign royalties by claiming it wasnt covered as "sales". This after suckering him into promoting the KS.

Snowman0147

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It still doesn't completely excuse the behavior that Holden had to the kickstarters and exalted fans that he banned from rpg.net.  Yes Holden is a victim to Rich Thomas, but I cannot have sympathy for Holden as he fuck people over too.

Baulderstone

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Getting people to write for free on something they love is so common that it was already an old cliche among writers long before roleplaying games existed. In the age of the Internet, it is really common. I've had multiple friends over the years that have written for prominent websites in return for "exposure" and a shot at a paid position that would never really be offered.

Snowman0147

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Wasn't there a video of a Hollywood writer ranting at young people who write for free?

Baulderstone

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Quote from: Snowman0147;967303
Wasn't there a video of a Hollywood writer ranting at young people who write for free?

I seem to recall that was Harlan Ellison.

Snowman0147

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Quote from: Baulderstone;967305
I seem to recall that was Harlan Ellison.

If so he is a wise man.


Dave 2

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Quote from: Omega;967299
Last year we had a publisher screw a designer out of the entirety of the KS campaign royalties by claiming it wasnt covered as "sales". This after suckering him into promoting the KS.


What publisher, what kickstarter?  If it happened I want to never give them money again, not be coy about it.

Quote from: Dumarest;967293
Perhaps I was unclear: I meant  why  did these guys turn in  work for free when they were apparently supposed to be paid. There is a huge difference between an OSR labor of love where you never expected to make a dime off it and working for a company for free when you've apparently got a contract specifying you are getting paid.


Payment by royalties is pretty standard in publishing.  Twice a year off previous half-year's sales is fairly common in non-gaming publishing for instance, though I don't know the details for Onyx Path.  Lag between submitting a draft, time for editing and printing, and six months after release date can be pretty long.  If the publisher then doesn't bother to cut a check, what's your recourse?  If you're very unlucky you might already be into them for two or three books.

Omega

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Quote from: Dave R;967316
What publisher, what kickstarter?  If it happened I want to never give them money again, not be coy about it.

I dont know. He wouldnt say and I eventually got fed up with him complaining about being ripped off but refusing to name names "for fear of damaging his carreer" which means he was enabling the rip-off publisher to screw over someone else. He wasnt using his designer account so there was no way to just check.

Theres another publisher thats done it that I know of but I cant find the thread now. Mayfair I believe. But Im likely wrong.

Future Villain Band

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Quote from: Dave R;967316

Payment by royalties is pretty standard in publishing.  Twice a year off previous half-year's sales is fairly common in non-gaming publishing for instance, though I don't know the details for Onyx Path.  Lag between submitting a draft, time for editing and printing, and six months after release date can be pretty long.  If the publisher then doesn't bother to cut a check, what's your recourse?  If you're very unlucky you might already be into them for two or three books.

For the record, WW and then OP never paid by royalties to freelancers, or at least not in their gaming sourcebooks.  There may have been one or two occasions for somebody, somewhere, but as long as I worked for them, me and everybody I knew got paid half upon delivery of a final draft and the other half upon release or something similar.  You also always got a kill fee if for some reason you produced your work and it wasn't released.  There was one time when I got paid 100% upon printing, when somebody dropped out of a product at the last minute and I had to produce my whole portion over a weekend, but again, the first thing that happened is that I got sent a contract with the terms laid out.

OP and WW never expected anybody to work for free, and anybody saying that is not telling the truth. From day one, I was told never accept work as a freelancer for any company where you didn't get a contract, because the contract spells out a) how much you're getting paid, b) what you're getting paid for, and c) how you get paid if for some reason they don't use your stuff.  Also, things like comp copies and the like.  During the various work I did for Exalted over the years, there was only one time where developers expected me to work without a contract, didn't give me one when I asked, and when OP was apprised of it they immediately rectified it after reaching out to me through two other developers and then an employee of the company proper.  I was informed in no uncertain terms that was not how they did business, and that matches my previous experiences when WW was in business.  

Contracts and pay are a big deal because they protect both the freelancer and the company.