Avoiding another derail...

I have played a lot of RPGs online.  I have several brothers, old college buddies, etc, who game, and could if I wanted to get a game going this weekend.  I have an extensive library of art, macros for various games, etc.  But it isn't working.  Here are some issues I've had, and I wonder if anyone has advice:

1) The computer interface lends itself to graphics, and those are time consuming.

When each night's play becomes a full-color module, built by hand, sometimes without sufficient art, the prep time require becomes obscene.  Also you can't let the players go off the rails because doing this level of art detail is just not possible on the fly.

But if you try and go without the maps and character tokens, or worse yet try and remove them after you've set that expectation, people are understandibly disspointed.

We're not used to looking at a multimedia screen and using our imaginations to fill in the blanks.

2) The computer interface lends itself to programming.

As above, macros become a crutch.  This can be a problem that feeds itself (and I'm looking at you Maptool), but definitely exists.

"This isn't fun, you don't have enough macros" was an actual complaint.

3) Distance-dispersed gaming isn't as personal.

On the upside, you can play in your underwear.  On the downside players often don't show up, or are distracted, or otherwise don't offer up the same level of respect you'd see in a face-to-face situation.  Or really any situation where more effort was involved.

Thoughts?

Have you considered using webcams and microphones? That might solve the haunting doubts about underwear at least.

Yeah, my best online gaming experiences used only conferencing software, webcams and mics.  No fancy graphics whatsoever.  Almost as good as being at the table with old friend who'd scattered to the winds.

As for platforms I've tried thus far:

Maptool - This is an awesome piece of software that is a beast to support, especially if your gamer friends aren't tech savvy.  The sky is the limit with what this can do, but it can be a PITA.

roll20 - Neat platform, much easier to interface with.  Features are catching up, but I'd really like to see them allow outside graphics via web server.  I have one of those, and don't want to have to upload all my graphics from my desktop.  Hopefully macro support continues to evolve.  I didn't get the voice chat to work, but I did find that it got in the way.

I've also used WebRPG, Traipse, OpenRPG, and a handful of others.

I've never used Fantasygrounds, though it looks cool.

Use a Google Plus Hangout with a simple white board like http://www.twiddla.com

You don't need to invest hours of your time into preparing neat maps and little graphics and all the BS. Just get in there, play the game and draw a relevant sketch when relevant. Post links to pictures and the like.

I've been investigating online venues in the past few weeks and that's what my friends basically recommended. I've done a test with this yesterday that basically left me wondering why I'd bother with anything more complicated than that.

Quote from: The Traveller;592130Have you considered using webcams and microphones? That might solve the haunting doubts about underwear at least.

Quote from: KenHR;592131Yeah, my best online gaming experiences used only conferencing software, webcams and mics.  No fancy graphics whatsoever.  Almost as good as being at the table with old friend who'd scattered to the winds.

I'm considering it.

The flashy stuff sure is addictive, though.

Ideally what you'd want is webcams and mics, a whiteboard with counters, a chat window for text typing (private channels optional), and a tabbed interface to let you flip through inbuilt PDF rulebooks/reference sheets/character sheet/notes, and of course a shared dice roller. I'm not sure if anything like that really exists though.

Here is some of that addictive flashiness....

Quote from: The Traveller;592140Ideally what you'd want is webcams and mics, a whiteboard with counters, a chat window for text typing (private channels optional), and a tabbed interface to let you flip through inbuilt PDF rulebooks/reference sheets/character sheet/notes, and of course a shared dice roller. I'm not sure if anything like that really exists though.

I understand that G+ can handle all that.  Well, that and a wiki.

It's too bad Wave died.

Quote from: mcbobbo;5921251) The computer interface lends itself to graphics, and those are time consuming...{snip}...We're not used to looking at a multimedia screen and using our imaginations to fill in the blanks.

100% Accurate.  Fantasy Grounds, MapTool, etc are designed (no matter what the designers say) first and foremost for 3/3.5/PF/4, which are heavily tactical-map dependent and the tools themselves have issues working outside that gamespace.
My suggestion would be to not use the full-blown graphics.  What you need is less graphical structure.  A simple voice/video chat, combined with ways to show pictures, possibly with a simple whiteboard you can scribble on is really all you need.  WebEx, GoToMeeting, things like that are good, as is Google Hangouts.  Get a decent webcam and a whiteboard from Staples, who needs a DunDjinni map?

Quote from: mcbobbo;5921252) The computer interface lends itself to programming.

100% agree. Current VTT's are all chasing the "Token Model" which I think can be useful, but comes down to programmers writing tools for programmers.  The VTT environment can get players into the mode of playing a cRPG Mod rather then a tabletop game via telecommunication.  Ironically, the better it looks, the more players get into videogame mode.

Quote from: mcbobbo;5921253) Distance-dispersed gaming isn't as personal.

It definitely isn't, and can lead to issues, however, it does have advantages, like different communication channels for private messages, there can be less "table-talk" when people can't just mutter something to the guy next to them, etc.

Sure it looks nice and everything, but at the end of the day I think that, for me, it's just too much hassle to manage. When I want to game online I want to game, not juggle with all the modifiers of this or that on a low tech video game window and chat in three separate frames and switch back and forth between counters and all that bullshit. I don't want to feel like I'm on NWN's Aurora toolset. I just want to game like I'd do around a real game table.

Same thing with dice rollers: just use an honour system (people roll physically their dice for themselves and announce the results - you trust people not to cheat), and basta.

Question: does anyone else know some other decent online white board options besides Twiddla.com?

Oh but Ben, MapTool is awesome especially when the lighting is setup right, you see the door open a crack, with a sliver of light going into the room.  Open the door, pow! 3 Bugbears you didn't see (and the GM rolled your perception for you without your knowing with two clicks on your token).  It's crack I tell you, crack.

It's also just as much of a broom up the keister to configure and run as NWN was.  

Quote from: Benoist;592147Question: does anyone else know some other decent online white board options besides Twiddla.com?

Twiddla was the best that I found when I looked for one last year.  It does have an integrated dice roller into the chat app.

I had a character creation session through Roll20 last night, and beyond 3D dice it doesn't do anything that couldn't be done with a combination of Mumble and Twiddla - especially if its a low combat campaign.

Quote from: Benoist;592147Question: does anyone else know some other decent online white board options besides Twiddla.com?

Google "online whiteboards" there's a fuckton.

You're at a school, right?  Check out eluminate.  You can set up small trial classrooms that have everything but recorded sessions and videoconferencing.  Heard good things about classes run with Blackboard.com but haven't used that one.  Most of the education platforms have free trials, and being associated with a First Nation school, they might give you a licence.