"Kin" is something that I would use for anthropomorphic animals: Catkin, Dogkin, Lizardkin, etc. "Lineage" (much like "ancestry") is something that could apply to different humans of the same race (two European/"White" people could have a different ancestry or lineage). That's why all of these alternate terms for "race" are bullshit. None of them work better than or even equal to "race" as an adequate term to refer to different classes of being.

Quote from: VisionStorm on December 02, 2022, 12:08:36 PM

Quote from: Brad on December 02, 2022, 11:43:54 AM

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on December 02, 2022, 11:16:01 AM
  Daniel Kwan has already decried the change to 'species' on Twitter: https://twitter.com/danielhkwan/status/1598409233774837760

"codify systems of oppression in their games"

Wtf does that even mean? Is this one of those "if you have slavery in your game it means you're racist" dumbass arguments?

It relates to the idea that acknowledging racial differences = "BiOlOgYcAl EsSeNtIAlIsM" (aka. observable reality), which is supposedly the basis for racial oppression. Cuz acknowledging that different classes of being exist inevitably leads to racism or something, and the enactment of oppressive systems in society.

My take for what it's worth: when it comes to wokists, you have got your casual ones, your dumb ones, and your smart-but-evil ones.

The casual ones think being woke is just about not being prejudiced against people who are different from you. A lot of them are actually decent people in my experience; they just haven't thought it through enough. Some of them grow up to be either...

The dumb woke: who think anything that prevents them indulging their immediate whims now with only good consequences = oppression.

The smart, evil woke: who want to be able to define what is "oppression" so they can seize control of language, culture and thought, in order to exercise power. Going back to 1984 mentioned above, these people want to be wearing the boot that is stamping on a human face, forever. I struggle to get inside the headspace but a casual glance at history suggests there are always some of these people around.

Anyway... yeah can't think of a better term than race for, er, races, although I'd take -kin as an acceptable 2nd-best and occasional change for variety's sake.

Quote from: amacris on December 03, 2022, 02:49:54 AM

Quote from: Trond on December 03, 2022, 01:50:18 AM
Not sure if that sounds better though. How about "kin"? Elf-kin and dwarf-kin etc.

While I personally prefer "race", for its traditional meaning, I think "kin" is a good word, much better than "species". "Kind" would also work.

Race works if your available options are demihumans and the like. It feels a bit inadequate once you've got non-humanoid creatures (talking animals, dragons, unicorns, etc.) as player options. Even 'species' feels inadequate once you add golems and embodied spirits (elementals, divine servitors, etc.) so options aren't even sharing the same taxonomic charts.

"Kind" though I think might work better for my purposes as Humankind, Dwarfkind, Dragonkind and Golemkind all sound grammatically correct.

I'd reserve Species for Sci-Fi settings and Ancestry or Heritage for Fantasy settings.

Quote from: Chris24601 on December 03, 2022, 09:32:22 AM

Quote from: amacris on December 03, 2022, 02:49:54 AM

Quote from: Trond on December 03, 2022, 01:50:18 AM
Not sure if that sounds better though. How about "kin"? Elf-kin and dwarf-kin etc.

While I personally prefer "race", for its traditional meaning, I think "kin" is a good word, much better than "species". "Kind" would also work.

Race works if your available options are demihumans and the like. It feels a bit inadequate once you've got non-humanoid creatures (talking animals, dragons, unicorns, etc.) as player options. Even 'species' feels inadequate once you add golems and embodied spirits (elementals, divine servitors, etc.) so options aren't even sharing the same taxonomic charts.

"Kind" though I think might work better for my purposes as Humankind, Dwarfkind, Dragonkind and Golemkind all sound grammatically correct.

Yeah, I like "kind" - which works better for warforged or golems. I think "kin" is similar to "lineage" in that it implies ancestry. I feel like "kin" as well as "race" implies a cohesive group, but kinds like half-elf or aasimar aren't a group. Figures like Merlin or many Greek heroes aren't fully human in ancestry, but they aren't part of a separate race.

Quote from: jhkim on December 03, 2022, 01:18:34 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on December 03, 2022, 09:32:22 AM

Quote from: amacris on December 03, 2022, 02:49:54 AM

Quote from: Trond on December 03, 2022, 01:50:18 AM
Not sure if that sounds better though. How about "kin"? Elf-kin and dwarf-kin etc.

While I personally prefer "race", for its traditional meaning, I think "kin" is a good word, much better than "species". "Kind" would also work.

Race works if your available options are demihumans and the like. It feels a bit inadequate once you've got non-humanoid creatures (talking animals, dragons, unicorns, etc.) as player options. Even 'species' feels inadequate once you add golems and embodied spirits (elementals, divine servitors, etc.) so options aren't even sharing the same taxonomic charts.

"Kind" though I think might work better for my purposes as Humankind, Dwarfkind, Dragonkind and Golemkind all sound grammatically correct.

Yeah, I like "kind" - which works better for warforged or golems. I think "kin" is similar to "lineage" in that it implies ancestry. I feel like "kin" as well as "race" implies a cohesive group, but kinds like half-elf or aasimar aren't a group. Figures like Merlin or many Greek heroes aren't fully human in ancestry, but they aren't part of a separate race.

Well, it helps that in my setting there are no "half-elves" as a separate race, species or Kind. They fall under the human entry, but have elven ancestry. Merlin and Greek heroes with divine lineages would similarly just be humans with various ancestries... most just fall out the outside range of human potential in various ways instead of being in the middle (i.e. those with traceable giant ancestry mostly fall into the upper 1% for height and strength, elven ancestry tends to mean you live to uppermost range of humans and remain incredibly spry and youthful looking for your age, etc.).

Quote from: Brad on December 02, 2022, 11:43:54 AM

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on December 02, 2022, 11:16:01 AM
  Daniel Kwan has already decried the change to 'species' on Twitter: https://twitter.com/danielhkwan/status/1598409233774837760

"codify systems of oppression in their games"

Wtf does that even mean? Is this one of those "if you have slavery in your game it means you're racist" dumbass arguments?

Pretty much.

Over on BGG they got a guy's game cancelled because it had... exploration and colonization of Africa and that was, and I quote. "Promoting Genocide." another designer was told by their editor that their historic game could not have George Washington it it because he was WACIST! And theres probably more because there is no end to what the insane will hallucinate is offensive next.

Quote from: Mishihari on December 01, 2022, 03:44:03 PMI don't really agree.  I have to go from 1E, which is what I remember best, but there were halforcs and halfelves and no other crossbreeds, implying that the other combinations don't work.  Also no quarter elves or orcs implying that the crossbreeds are sterile, which means the parents are separate species like horses and donkeys make sterile mules.

I never got this sense myself.

My understanding is if a pair of Half-Elves bred, they'd produce Half-Elves. If they mix with a human you get a human with Elvish blood, and vice versa.

------------------

My take on all of this is:

1) They're bullies, and bullies are never bought off or mollified. Such actions merely embolden and excite them.

2) Anyone with a basic understanding of history and the English language realizes that Race is a perfectly fine term, and historically interchangeable with terms like species or peoples.

3) One D&D is going to be an unplayable grey sludge, both mechanically and lore-wise. Created by committees that hate the very idea of exploring, fighting, the exotic, and treasure, how can it be anything else?

Quote from: Omega on December 03, 2022, 05:11:23 PMAnd theres probably more because there is no end to what the insane will hallucinate is offensive next.

I think it's important that we're clear here: They don't hallucinate this stuff. Hell, the ones that create the Newspeak don't even believe in 90% of the laughable nonsense they spout. It's a never ending game of verbal musical chairs, where there's no winning, and you're not allowed to sit down.

Races>Sub-Races
Species>Sub-Species
Moron>Retard

The permanently offended don't really play TTRPG's, they're actually into playing semantic metagames where they see how they can make people dance to their tune and jump through their hoops. So it goes.

Quote from: tenbones on December 04, 2022, 06:05:59 PM
Races>Sub-Races
Species>Sub-Species
Moron>Retard

The permanently offended don't really play TTRPG's, they're actually into playing semantic metagames where they see how they can make people dance to their tune and jump through their hoops. So it goes.

The issue is that these moronic retards have a massive megaphone in their favor called social media. Less than a few hundred of them can dictate how megacorps like Hasbro decide to focus their efforts because the stupidity is so amplified they're worried about being "cancelled" if a tweet gets enough likes or whatever. Ask 99% of people in real life about this and they'll say it's idiotic, but some fucking jackasses in a Facebook group will ostracize you for daring to have a different opinion than they do.

Whatever, IDGAF, it's not like I'll ever buy anything from WotC again anyway.

Quote from: Brad on December 05, 2022, 09:45:56 AMWhatever, IDGAF, it's not like I'll ever buy anything from WotC again anyway.

This is an industry wide problem. WotC is actually late to the party here. It won't be long before DriveThruRPG refuses to sell any game that uses racist coded language? Or GenCon not allowing any company to attend unless they meet their Diversity and Inclusion guidelines.

The sad part is, just with board gaming, RPG writers will all comply.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on December 05, 2022, 12:42:23 PM

Quote from: Brad on December 05, 2022, 09:45:56 AMWhatever, IDGAF, it's not like I'll ever buy anything from WotC again anyway.

This is an industry wide problem. WotC is actually late to the party here. It won't be long before DriveThruRPG refuses to sell any game that uses racist coded language? Or GenCon not allowing any company to attend unless they meet their Diversity and Inclusion guidelines.

The sad part is, just with board gaming, RPG writers will all comply.

Edit: Misread RPG writers and players.

Sadly every group, organization and company seems to be full of wretched cowards. They'll throw friends and colleagues to the sharks, if it will just spare them for another day.

Personally I wouldn't be an artistic whore, but plenty would.

Quote from: Brad on December 05, 2022, 09:45:56 AM

Quote from: tenbones on December 04, 2022, 06:05:59 PM
Races>Sub-Races
Species>Sub-Species
Moron>Retard

The permanently offended don't really play TTRPG's, they're actually into playing semantic metagames where they see how they can make people dance to their tune and jump through their hoops. So it goes.

The issue is that these moronic retards have a massive megaphone in their favor called social media. Less than a few hundred of them can dictate how megacorps like Hasbro decide to focus their efforts because the stupidity is so amplified they're worried about being "cancelled" if a tweet gets enough likes or whatever. Ask 99% of people in real life about this and they'll say it's idiotic, but some fucking jackasses in a Facebook group will ostracize you for daring to have a different opinion than they do.

Whatever, IDGAF, it's not like I'll ever buy anything from WotC again anyway.

Same here. I just wish the Real Scotsman players would just stop pining about the death of their beloved game. That game never died. It's RIGHT here. *We* are the source of that type of gaming. And we damn well better start believing that, instead of complaining about WotC, because once it goes digital, there will never be a better time to scoop up new players and bring them to the good stuff.

Quote from: tenbones on December 05, 2022, 03:41:45 PM
Same here. I just wish the Real Scotsman players would just stop pining about the death of their beloved game. That game never died. It's RIGHT here. *We* are the source of that type of gaming. And we damn well better start believing that, instead of complaining about WotC, because once it goes digital, there will never be a better time to scoop up new players and bring them to the good stuff.

Hey,  I'm doing my part. I introduced a bunch of new players to AD&D (the real one because they all said they wanted to play "D&D" and probably meant 5th edition but fuck that and I gave them all PHBs so they couldn't complain about having to buy the rules) then we migrated to Castles and Crusades and are probably going to start playing Rifts eventually. I am not a fan of Savage Worlds so we'll probably just use my old copy from 1990. Maybe they'll all be mutant turtles who got stuck on Earth via a time travel malfunction. That seems like a Rifts thing to do.