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Author Topic: Onednd: species, not race  (Read 4787 times)

BoxCrayonTales

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Re: Onednd: species, not race
« Reply #45 on: December 02, 2022, 12:08:30 PM »
Strange how people can agree on something for completely different reasons. Kwan thinks "species" is racist and essentialist. We think it's scientifically inaccurate and too modern-sounding for fantasy.

VisionStorm

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Re: Onednd: species, not race
« Reply #46 on: December 02, 2022, 12:08:36 PM »
  Daniel Kwan has already decried the change to 'species' on Twitter: https://twitter.com/danielhkwan/status/1598409233774837760

"codify systems of oppression in their games"

Wtf does that even mean? Is this one of those "if you have slavery in your game it means you're racist" dumbass arguments?

It relates to the idea that acknowledging racial differences = "BiOlOgYcAl EsSeNtIAlIsM" (aka. observable reality), which is supposedly the basis for racial oppression. Cuz acknowledging that different classes of being exist inevitably leads to racism or something, and the enactment of oppressive systems in society.

rocksfalleverybodydies

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Re: Onednd: species, not race
« Reply #47 on: December 02, 2022, 12:16:36 PM »
Kwan is so painfully Torontonian: living in the dream bubble.
I guess he's in the 'never happy' camp unless he's had a hand in the changes.
It's too bad.  I liked his Ross Rifles and the Canadian aspect of it, when the content was more important than context.

Losing 'Race' was going to be inevitable in the new D&D, so not exactly surprised.  Amusing to watch the results show that any RPG terminology change will never be the 'right' change.  Fumble away WoTC on your fruitless quest and keep those windmills at bay.

Zelen

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Re: Onednd: species, not race
« Reply #48 on: December 02, 2022, 01:37:12 PM »
Race was actually a better word, at least historically speaking.

The reason was that "race" as used in the 1800s, and continued by Tolkien (who was often deliberately old fashioned), to mean any population with some sort of distinguishing characteristic. Hence, "the human race" (still used today), but also "various human races" could be used at the same time. So, since we don't know exactly what fantasy races are in "scientific" terms, but they seem to interbreed (both in myth and Tolkien's work) "race" was entirely appropriate but "species" was not.

Exactly. There's no benefit to this change. "Species" doesn't improve legibility in any way, it actually hinders it.

Fortunately, I will never buy any more WotC products, so it's fine. If they want to spiral off into turning their product into a festering pit of Anti-Reality, Anti-White ideological hatred, good. I won't support it.

PulpHerb

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Re: Onednd: species, not race
« Reply #49 on: December 02, 2022, 02:15:51 PM »
  Daniel Kwan has already decried the change to 'species' on Twitter: https://twitter.com/danielhkwan/status/1598409233774837760

Damn, hadn't seen that when I wrote my comment above, but I got it exactly right.

Effete

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Re: Onednd: species, not race
« Reply #50 on: December 02, 2022, 04:12:51 PM »
For fucks sake! Literally they won't be happy until every character is a grey goo. Next - 7th edition to be titled "Somethings & Somethings" so no one offended?

It'd probably be more accurate to call Nothing & Nothing.

mightybrain

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Re: Onednd: species, not race
« Reply #51 on: December 02, 2022, 06:35:05 PM »
So, since we don't know exactly what fantasy races are in "scientific" terms, but they seem to interbreed (both in myth and Tolkien's work) "race" was entirely appropriate but "species" was not.

In Tolkien, elves and men were supposedly the first and second born children of the same god. Interbreeding was possible but still very rare. They also rarely interbred with the maia (angels). Orcs were corrupted elves so by extension they might also interbreed. Other than that, they were separate. No half dwarves, half hobbits, half ents, or half trolls. No dwelfs.

jhkim

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Re: Onednd: species, not race
« Reply #52 on: December 02, 2022, 06:42:33 PM »
So, since we don't know exactly what fantasy races are in "scientific" terms, but they seem to interbreed (both in myth and Tolkien's work) "race" was entirely appropriate but "species" was not.

In Tolkien, elves and men were supposedly the first and second born children of the same god. Interbreeding was possible but still very rare. They also rarely interbred with the maia (angels). Orcs were corrupted elves so by extension they might also interbreed. Other than that, they were separate. No half dwarves, half hobbits, half ents, or half trolls. No dwelfs.

Yeah. And it is similar in D&D. Half races are the rare exception. not the rule. No half gnomes or half halflings. There are also exceptions that can breed like ligers in the real world.

So species might fit, but it clashes in flavor with a pseudomedieval fantasy setting. I think "lineage" works better.

oggsmash

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Re: Onednd: species, not race
« Reply #53 on: December 02, 2022, 07:25:03 PM »
  Some of these fucking people could suck the fun out of just about anything.  How miserable a person has to be to get around to making a big stink about something like this is beyond me.

Almost_Useless

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Re: Onednd: species, not race
« Reply #54 on: December 02, 2022, 07:40:56 PM »
It'll just be something else next year and it's just the same old grift.  Once you declare a problem solved, no one will pay you to keep fighting.

Ratman_tf

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Re: Onednd: species, not race
« Reply #55 on: December 02, 2022, 11:37:06 PM »
I dislike using the term "race" in RPGs. A dragonborn, warforged, or even dwarf is an entirely different creature.

Dwarves are pretty near-human. They definitley are not an entirely different creature. Too many similarites to humans. Dragonborn are dragon-people, with a very similar body structure. Being part dragon does put them further from humans. Warforged are possibly the furthest in difference.
The notion of an exclusionary and hostile RPG community is a fever dream of zealots who view all social dynamics through a narrow keyhole of structural oppression.
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Ratman_tf

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Re: Onednd: species, not race
« Reply #56 on: December 02, 2022, 11:40:24 PM »
  Daniel Kwan has already decried the change to 'species' on Twitter: https://twitter.com/danielhkwan/status/1598409233774837760

"codify systems of oppression in their games"

Wtf does that even mean? Is this one of those "if you have slavery in your game it means you're racist" dumbass arguments?

Yes. It's that particular branch of progressive oppression politics. Everything is oppressive, and if it isn't, you haven't looked hard enough.
The notion of an exclusionary and hostile RPG community is a fever dream of zealots who view all social dynamics through a narrow keyhole of structural oppression.
-Haffrung

Tasty_Wind

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Re: Onednd: species, not race
« Reply #57 on: December 02, 2022, 11:51:02 PM »
  Some of these fucking people could suck the fun out of just about anything.  How miserable a person has to be to get around to making a big stink about something like this is beyond me.
It’s a system of belief that forbids escapism, fun, or happiness, there is only the Party (or the State, Religion, or Revolution). I’m reminded of that old quote from the Ayatollah (paraphrased); “There’s no music in Islam”.

Trond

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Re: Onednd: species, not race
« Reply #58 on: December 03, 2022, 01:50:18 AM »
So, since we don't know exactly what fantasy races are in "scientific" terms, but they seem to interbreed (both in myth and Tolkien's work) "race" was entirely appropriate but "species" was not.

In Tolkien, elves and men were supposedly the first and second born children of the same god. Interbreeding was possible but still very rare. They also rarely interbred with the maia (angels). Orcs were corrupted elves so by extension they might also interbreed. Other than that, they were separate. No half dwarves, half hobbits, half ents, or half trolls. No dwelfs.

Yeah. And it is similar in D&D. Half races are the rare exception. not the rule. No half gnomes or half halflings. There are also exceptions that can breed like ligers in the real world.

So species might fit, but it clashes in flavor with a pseudomedieval fantasy setting. I think "lineage" works better.

Not sure if that sounds better though. How about "kin"? Elf-kin and dwarf-kin etc.

amacris

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Re: Onednd: species, not race
« Reply #59 on: December 03, 2022, 02:49:54 AM »
Not sure if that sounds better though. How about "kin"? Elf-kin and dwarf-kin etc.

While I personally prefer "race", for its traditional meaning, I think "kin" is a good word, much better than "species". "Kind" would also work.