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Author Topic: Onednd: species, not race  (Read 4785 times)

Steven Mitchell

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Re: Onednd: species, not race
« Reply #30 on: December 02, 2022, 08:23:44 AM »
Nobody questions it anymore, just because D&D has so proliferated the term, but "class" is a weird choice when you compare it to something like "profession" or "archetype". No one in the real world would say "my class is welder". I assume it's another artifact of wargaming, where you would talk about classes of ships and soldiers. (e.g. the Nimitz-Class Aircraft Carrier).

Not exactly.  There is a wargaming element to it, which probably did affect the choice of the term initially.  However, it would be going too far to assume that a D&D class is nothing more than a profession, archetype, or some other term you might use, such as "template".  Part of the reason "class" sticks is because the widget sits in this weird intersection of mechanics, setting, and character activity that doesn't have an exact word for what it is.  Depending on their preferences in play, some people bend the idea into 95% archetype or profession or whatever, but that's not the whole picture.

VisionStorm

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Re: Onednd: species, not race
« Reply #31 on: December 02, 2022, 08:35:17 AM »
This entire thing is semantic masturbation, cuz not even "science" has a clear definition on WTF these terms. Any claim or implications to the contrary is just self-assured BS from armchair authorities in the internet—and not just SJWs obsessed with associating "race" with RaIcIsM, but also people making hardline declarations about where the line is drawn in regards to WTF constitutes a "species", such as "different species can't interbreed" which is something that gets contradicted with actual science. And all the whining in the internet that if different species CAN interbreed that maybe they need to change these terms cuz they're just confusing isn't gonna change the fact that they haven't been changed and that such decisions can't be decided by random posters in an internet forum.

Insisting that "Species/Race" just means this or that is just you imposing your own preferred usage in your own tiny corner of the internet where the rest of humanity can't benefit from your supreme understanding of language, so it's all pointless even if we assume that you have a valid point.

In terms of the existing or historical scope of what these terms mean/have meant, however, the term "Race" is a perfectly serviceable term for different categories of being for purposes of a game based on fictional worlds. Race has been used to mean not just ethnic groups, but also nations of people, etc. Its a pretty broad term that can be easily adapted for different uses, and it's association with rAiCiSm has been basically willed into existence by race obsessed imbeciles who want to control language. But in the vast majority of cases "race" is just a neutral term used as a shorthand to mean different groups of people.

ForgottenF

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Re: Onednd: species, not race
« Reply #32 on: December 02, 2022, 08:37:36 AM »
Most annoying thing to me is my own Thundarr the Barbarian inspired system (post-post apocalyptic mix of superscience and sorcery) used species because it did better fit the setting.

Now I don’t want it to because it’ll look like I’m agreeing with WotC’s garbage.

So, I dunno, maybe I’ll use Ancestry (even though I hate it) so it can be the ABC’s of Character Creation (Ancestry, Background, Class)?

Don't let them dictate to you, even when they do something stupid that on the surface makes you look in their camp.  That's letting them make decisions for you. 

I dropped alignment in my system because it really didn't have any purpose for what I was doing (and I intend to eventually put something else where it would go).  Decision made couple of years ago, and done on its merits.

Yeah, as others pointed out, the usage of "species" in fantasy and sci fi has been around for decades. Nobody is going to think the decision was influenced by WOTC. It's the same thing with alignment. People have been talking about ditching it for as long as I can remember, and there are perfectly good non-PC arguments for doing so.

VisionStorm

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Re: Onednd: species, not race
« Reply #33 on: December 02, 2022, 08:49:22 AM »
Most annoying thing to me is my own Thundarr the Barbarian inspired system (post-post apocalyptic mix of superscience and sorcery) used species because it did better fit the setting.

Now I don’t want it to because it’ll look like I’m agreeing with WotC’s garbage.

So, I dunno, maybe I’ll use Ancestry (even though I hate it) so it can be the ABC’s of Character Creation (Ancestry, Background, Class)?

I ended up using the term "Race" in my own system, cuz "Species" and "Ancestry" are imprecise terms as well, and "Class" (another term I considered) has become associated with "professions" in RPGs. And "Race" is a good enough term anyways that had become standard in RPGs till recent years, before the Culture War hysteria, plus it pisses off the right people. So "Race" it is.

But really you should just use whatever term is appropriate to your own game and the type of "feel" you're trying to invoke. I prefer "race" cuz it's a generic term and I'm making a generic system.

BoxCrayonTales

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Re: Onednd: species, not race
« Reply #34 on: December 02, 2022, 08:59:40 AM »
I like the ABC thing.

tenbones

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Re: Onednd: species, not race
« Reply #35 on: December 02, 2022, 10:16:09 AM »
First they fixed racism in advertising by removing a black lady from a pancake box, now they've fixed racism in roleplaying games by renaming races "species". Bravo, WotC!

"Oriental" is racist. "Asian" is not.

They hate Romans, but not Greeks.

PulpHerb

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Re: Onednd: species, not race
« Reply #36 on: December 02, 2022, 10:17:05 AM »
Does that mean we get our "species" based ability modifiers back?

Nope, because that's not what this is about.   In fact, people saying "well, if they are different specifies then abilities modifiers make sense" will be used as proof we're all racists and orcs are black people and we need another change.

Because the people driving this aren't about clean language, but about making you kowtow to them. You do it once and they'll find the next way to make you do it.

Eric Diaz

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Re: Onednd: species, not race
« Reply #37 on: December 02, 2022, 10:40:06 AM »
I dislike using the term "race" in RPGs. A dragonborn, warforged, or even dwarf is an entirely different creature.

I also dislike the term being used for people, there is only one humanity, we are all the same, unlike dwarves and elves.

I use "ancestry" because it sounds more "fantasy" than "species".

(PF 2 uses ABC, I treid doing AABCDEF for fun: ancestry, abilities, background, class, detailes, equipment, and final touches... but that might be pushing it)
« Last Edit: December 02, 2022, 10:41:44 AM by Eric Diaz »
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Brad

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Re: Onednd: species, not race
« Reply #38 on: December 02, 2022, 10:44:17 AM »
"Oriental" is racist. "Asian" is not.

They hate Romans, but not Greeks.

Well...Greeks were more into buttsex so it makes sense I suppose.
It takes considerable knowledge just to realize the extent of your own ignorance.

rytrasmi

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Re: Onednd: species, not race
« Reply #39 on: December 02, 2022, 10:57:50 AM »
Why stop here? Other "problematic" words:

Advantage/Disadvantage - Check your privilege!

Monster - Ableist!

Dwarf - Ableist!!!

Hit - Domestic abuse is no joke.

Carousing - Triggering to recovering addicts.

Homebrew - Alcoholism!

Murderhobo - Denigrating to the homeless.

Wizard - What is this? A chapter of the KKK?
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Trond

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Re: Onednd: species, not race
« Reply #40 on: December 02, 2022, 11:15:09 AM »
Race was actually a better word, at least historically speaking.

The reason was that "race" as used in the 1800s, and continued by Tolkien (who was often deliberately old fashioned), to mean any population with some sort of distinguishing characteristic. Hence, "the human race" (still used today), but also "various human races" could be used at the same time. So, since we don't know exactly what fantasy races are in "scientific" terms, but they seem to interbreed (both in myth and Tolkien's work) "race" was entirely appropriate but "species" was not.

Armchair Gamer

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Re: Onednd: species, not race
« Reply #41 on: December 02, 2022, 11:16:01 AM »
  Daniel Kwan has already decried the change to 'species' on Twitter: https://twitter.com/danielhkwan/status/1598409233774837760

THE_Leopold

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Re: Onednd: species, not race
« Reply #42 on: December 02, 2022, 11:43:28 AM »
  Daniel Kwan has already decried the change to 'species' on Twitter: https://twitter.com/danielhkwan/status/1598409233774837760

The grifter is trying to get back into the game now that WOTC has moved off of the Asian projects.
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Brad

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Re: Onednd: species, not race
« Reply #43 on: December 02, 2022, 11:43:54 AM »
  Daniel Kwan has already decried the change to 'species' on Twitter: https://twitter.com/danielhkwan/status/1598409233774837760

"codify systems of oppression in their games"

Wtf does that even mean? Is this one of those "if you have slavery in your game it means you're racist" dumbass arguments?
It takes considerable knowledge just to realize the extent of your own ignorance.

THE_Leopold

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Re: Onednd: species, not race
« Reply #44 on: December 02, 2022, 11:46:37 AM »
  Daniel Kwan has already decried the change to 'species' on Twitter: https://twitter.com/danielhkwan/status/1598409233774837760

"codify systems of oppression in their games"

Wtf does that even mean? Is this one of those "if you have slavery in your game it means you're racist" dumbass arguments?

It's an attempt to Use Big Words to Sound Smartest

Codifying that a half elf is different than a Dwarf is apparently Racist and Problematic.

This goes back to the fact that some people will never be happy, have nothing else in their lives to bring happiness too, and will do everything in their power to shit on other people's joy as they are dead in their heart.
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