Quote from: estar;852695I just read over the blog post over at OBS' blog. My first thought is that they are in a difficult position in that they are in a dominant position in regards to distribution of RPG products especially over the internet. If they sneeze a lot of people in the industry will catch a cold.

I hope it turns out to be similar the OGL scare where third party publishers were afraid that Wizards would use it to take their content. Yes technically Wizards could have done it but in actual practice it turned about to be a whole of nothing. I think that what will likely happen here. What will be added will be tools make managing these complaints easy but in the end most content will be left up, there will be few corner cases, but the products that will be banned will be clear cut example of inappropriate content.

I could be wrong and if I am then I think there will be a swift and effective reaction on the part of the publishers themselves. The internet sword cuts both ways on these issues.

I do think OBS realizes the potential for abuse and are taking publisher concerns seriously (which is why I encourage people to contact them if they feel strongly about this). I found Steve's response to my email very encouraging (though I do still worry about where this will ultimately lead).

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;852618Of course, the system works both ways... if LotFP were to be removed, nothing would stop LotFP fans from swarming the site and clicking the little button to report FATE or whatever. Over and over again, over any little "Offensive" thing. I mean, they say their default reaction is suspension now, right?  

Not that I would ever suggest such a thing. Heavens no. Not I.

I believe the default reaction is "increased scrutiny". Nothing suggests that they are going to just suspend games because someone flagged them.

As for flooding FATE with frivolous reports, sounds like a great idea if you want Wieck to decide your side of this stupid culture war is exactly annoying as the other side. It's not going to get FATE pulled, and nobody that makes or plays FATE is even going to know you reported it. It either achieves nothing, or it antagonizes Wieck with no gain.

Just follow Brendan's advice and send him an email with your thoughts on the matter like an adult instead of being a counterproductive little troll.

Quote from: Baulderstone;852700I believe the default reaction is "increased scrutiny". Nothing suggests that they are going to just suspend games because someone flagged them.

My reading of their blog is that they will suspend if initial examination after reporting seems to warrant it. Personally I am a bit unclear on how easily a suspension would occur and mentioned this to them in my last email. It is a point where I think they should clarify how suspension will work. For a lot of games, I think just getting a suspension alone could have a pretty negative impact on sales even they end up putting it back on the site. But I do think it is hard to predict until we see the process in action.

Quote from: Ddogwood;852678In Wieck's message, it sounded like someone clicks the button, and then he knows he's supposed to take a look at it.  Then he deals with it on a case-by-case basis, with the personal preference to err on the side of keeping stuff on the site.

If you look at the actual change, it's almost negligible.

OLD PROCEDURE: People complain about a product by emailing OBS and/or by complaining on social media.  OBS reviews the product, talks to the publisher, and decides whether to keep selling it or not.

NEW PROCEDURE: People complain about a product by clicking on the "report" button (and probably also by complaining on social media).  OBS reviews the product, talks to the publisher, and decides whether to keep selling it or not.

There is a big difference between sending an e-mail of complaint about something and just clicking a button. An e-mail requires that you actually describe what it is that you find offensive. It takes a little effort. Buttons can be clicked on a whim for no reason whatsoever.

Quote from: Baulderstone;852700I believe the default reaction is "increased

As for flooding FATE with frivolous reports, sounds like a great idea if you want Wieck to decide your side of this stupid culture war is exactly annoying as the other side. It's not going to get FATE pulled, and nobody that makes or plays FATE is even going to know you reported it. It either achieves nothing, or it antagonizes Wieck with no gain.

l.

I really agree here. It is childish and will only have negative outcomes. If people respond to this by behaving like angry and childish caricatures some folks believe them to be, then you pretty much lose the discussion.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;852703There is a big difference between sending an e-mail of complaint about something and just clicking a button. An e-mail requires that you actually describe what it is that you find offensive. It takes a little effort. Buttons can be clicked on a whim for no reason whatsoever.

Depends on how you design the button. Most examples I have seen of this sort of thing on social media prompt you to categorise why you are complaining about something and give details.

Quote from: Warthur;852706Depends on how you design the button. Most examples I have seen of this sort of thing on social media prompt you to categorise why you are complaining about something and give details.

If that is the case then it isn't much different than an e-mail.

First of all, this!

Quote from: Exploderwizard;852703There is a big difference between sending an e-mail of complaint about something and just clicking a button. An e-mail requires that you actually describe what it is that you find offensive. It takes a little effort. Buttons can be clicked on a whim for no reason whatsoever.

Adding to that, now you can have your author and publisher wars via clicking buttons. If you don't like game X, just click the button.
Even if this does not mean that it is immediately taken down, it is still not a good idea. Especially if you see how mob-mentality works (just look at the thread concerning the ToR on TBP).

I just don't get why people have to force their views on other people. You don't like a game? Fine, don't buy it (aka vote with your wallet). Why do you have to make it go away so that nobody can ever play it? That's just pure ego talking. You somehow think your viewpoint is the right one or the generally applicable one...which is extremely laughable no matter who you are.
We are talking about fucking "make believe" games. No one is saying that rape/murdering/torturing is something to take lightly or to support in any way.

Especially because most of those SJW kind of people just have their big mouth on the internet. I'm pretty sure the asshat on TBP who started the thread (Matt Ceb or something) has never taken part in any demonstrations recently to go against the neo nazis terrorizing refugees. But if some game does not meet his standards, he's the holier than thou white knight to the rescue...oh pleeasseee :rolleyes:

Quote from: Anglachel;852709Especially because most of those SJW kind of people just have their big mouth on the internet. .

What a load of bigoted shit. 'Those' kind of people.

This is just ad hom bullshit.

Quote from: Intergalactic Threat;852664Have you read it?

That's just crazy talk!

Everybody knows TBP is WRONG because they condemn works based on the author, not the content, so anything done by an author they like will be condemned here because it shows how superior this site is because... um... er... nope, I got nothin'.

Best case scenario, the report button emails directly to a spam folder

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;852701My reading of their blog is that they will suspend if initial examination after reporting seems to warrant it. Personally I am a bit unclear on how easily a suspension would occur and mentioned this to them in my last email. It is a point where I think they should clarify how suspension will work. For a lot of games, I think just getting a suspension alone could have a pretty negative impact on sales even they end up putting it back on the site. But I do think it is hard to predict until we see the process in action.

Sure. I was just responding to a comment suggesting that suspension was the "default". I would interpret that as meaning that a reported game would be suspended until they looked at it. I was just clarifying that it certainly doesn't seem to work that way.

I agree that they whole thing is still kind of vague.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;852705I really agree here. It is childish and will only have negative outcomes. If people respond to this by behaving like angry and childish caricatures some folks believe them to be, then you pretty much lose the discussion.

Along this line, I think its worth thinking about this from Wieck's position. He, going back decades, has been putting out gaming content with mature themes. He personally leans toward openness in content, and expressed some ambivalence in his announcement.

He isn't some pro-censorship demon that we need to go after with griefing. An outpouring of polite emails expressing support for the openness DriveThru has engaged in traditionally would probably be welcomed by him, and encourage him to not lean to heavily on the suspension button when reports start coming in.

Quote from: Warthur;852706Depends on how you design the button. Most examples I have seen of this sort of thing on social media prompt you to categorise why you are complaining about something and give details.

They would absolutely need to have a reporting system that solicited feedback. If it was just a simple red flag, it would be ridiculous. Someone flags a 400 page RPG. Now they need to play Where's Waldo through the whole book looking for offense that may or may not be there.

I imagine any reports that come in empty will go right to the trash. People that want to come in and report their 50 least favorite games have a lot of writing ahead of them.

It should also be noted that your report is going to be associated with your account. Anyone that makes a habit of filing frivolous or vindictive reports is going to find their reports being filtered right to the trash.

Quote from: Anglachel;852709Especially because most of those SJW kind of people just have their big mouth on the internet. I'm pretty sure the asshat on TBP who started the thread (Matt Ceb or something) has never taken part in any demonstrations recently to go against the neo nazis terrorizing refugees. But if some game does not meet his standards, he's the holier than thou white knight to the rescue...oh pleeasseee :rolleyes:

There is no need to go down the road of "I bet he's never...". I don't know if he has or hasn't gone to physical protests, but it's certainly an issue he's expressed a lot of vitriol online about. I have issues with the guy, but let's stick to what he has and hasn't done.

Mostly, I feel sorry for the guy, as based on his posts, he seems to be completely addicted to anger. That's a miserable way to live.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;852716That's just crazy talk!

Everybody knows TBP is WRONG because they condemn works based on the author, not the content, so anything done by an author they like will be condemned here because it shows how superior this site is because... um... er... nope, I got nothin'.

So true.

Your post would make me laugh if I wasn't crying.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;852707If that is the case then it isn't much different than an e-mail.

Dingdingdingdingding! It's highly likely that this is purely a cosmetic change that won't really lead to much difference in how DTRPG operate, except Wieck will occasionally get poop thrown at him by people who are unhappy with the situation with content guidelines for whatever reason.

Quote from: Intergalactic Threat;852713What a load of bigoted shit. 'Those' kind of people.

This is just ad hom bullshit.

U-hu. Right :rolleyes: I guess you're just a) asleep b) deluded or c) one of "those people" ...or maybe even all of it.

Or maybe you're Matt?

In any case the only bigots are the SJW crowd and the outrage brigade. Talk about double standards :rolleyes:

Quote from: Baulderstone;852731Along this line, I think its worth thinking about this from Wieck's position. He, going back decades, has been putting out gaming content with mature themes. He personally leans toward openness in content, and expressed some ambivalence in his announcement.

He isn't some pro-censorship demon that we need to go after with griefing. An outpouring of polite emails expressing support for the openness DriveThru has engaged in traditionally would probably be welcomed by him, and encourage him to not lean to heavily on the suspension button when reports start coming in.

.

I agree. He has a history of being in favor of using the power OBS gives him responsibly and I really do think he understands the potential issues here. When I wrote my response, he basically thanked me and it was clear to me that it gives him further resolve to do what he believes is right in future controversies. I suppose my concern is the nature of the pressure he will be under. I believe that he believes in free expression of designers and that he doesn't want to censor, but I also realize that a boycott threat on twitter is pretty hard to ignore when money is on the line and many other publishers are affected. This is one reason why I think these organized boycott tactics are a gray area. People have the right to voice their concerns, but twitter and boycott campaigns can sometimes give small groups the power to affect what others are able to read or play.

I do think we need to keep this in perspective though and I think behaving unreasonably over it will only make things worse. This is the sort of discussion where legitimate concerns are going to be raised by both sides and we can either have a real conversation or call each other the devil. Ultimately I do think freedom of expression is what matters and as offensive as some of these things can be, people always have the option of not buying or playing them. Maybe it is because I grew up and started gaming at the height of the Satanic Panic and the the whole Heavy Metal Suicide Outrage, but I am always pretty suspicious of people who try to take down books or art under the guise of protecting people from hurtful or dangerous ideas.