Having shifted gears toward the sandbox mode, using Dungeon World, which seems to support this thing pretty well, I am pleasantly astounded at how much my current players have going on in their base town, which is now the seat of every major thread in the campaign. The focus, as well as almost all the hooks, have grown organically from player decisions. Now, I suppose a different set of players might not toss in so many different things to run with, but my party of four does this, in spades. We've spent several sessions in and around our starting point, as the focus is on their party basically trying to mold the environment into a place they'd like to live.

So, intrigue is cranked up. Behind the scenes is engrossing, from a GM standpoint. We've had a couple of sessions where dice rolling was *relatively* rare, and it's been, as they say, a blast. My question is  about your similar experiences. Any of your own games generate a great deal of depth in a geographically small space? (I'm betting there's many, and look forward to any details I might steal).:-)

Quote from: cranebump;926219Any of your own games generate a great deal of depth in a geographically small space?

All the time. If you have believable, interesting non-player characters and lots of connections to explore, it's kinda hard not to, if your players don't completely suck.

In our Boot Hill campaign, we've been working our way through the first four modules. When we picked a start date for the campaign, we chose 1873, and all of the modules are conforming to that date. When it came time for us to start Ballots & Bullets, the political campaign in Promise City, we decided to wait to hold the election in 1874, giving our characters a full year to become established in town prior to the election. My character arrived in town first - by dint of getting booted out of Dead Mule by vigilantes - and found himself working for one of the local ranchers, having a poker table of his own at a variety hall (in exchange for a cut of his winnings, of course), courting the daughter of the cantina owner, and attending the Catholic church when he's in town. He's building a web of social connections in Promise City, and he's doing the same in Burned Bush Wells while off hunting wolves during the winter of '73-'74.

You know that KoDT storyline where the guys somehow got a hold of a farm and then dove into the micromanaging of the farm...my players are kind of like that.  I talked in that "boring GM" thread about "Seizing the Initiative with regards to campaign plotting." These bastards wrote the book.  When I can, I tend to run things that are pretty well prepped and detailed, and they have fun running with it.  

What starts out as passing through a small town on the way to check out rumors of an old dwarven mine not on anyone's maps turns into protecting and securing a poor neighboorhood from a brigand gang in the sewers, with one of the PCs retiring to stay behind after getting married.

What started out as 4 Vanir rowing south to adventure in Argos, has turned into getting involved in an ancient feud between immortal sorcerers, the search for the treasure of Bloody Tranicos, seizure of a pirate ship, becoming embroiled in the politics of civil war-torn Zingara, and is about to hit a highlight with the players teaming up with a Zingaran Freebooter to assault the island lair of a feared Barachan Pirate lord said to deal with Sorcerous powers.  They still haven't seen Messantia. Of course, being a Conan campaign, you could argue that starting a path, and then chaotically meandering down other paths whenever the interest strikes you is Working as Intended.

Death on the Reik led to the most glorious derailing of the Enemy Within campaign I've ever seen.  After the collapse of Castle Wittgenstein, the jaded Estalian noble wizard went back to find the statue of Slaanesh in the rubble...yeah things went slightly off track at that point.

I just realized I gloriously derailed my answer there, and sidetracked onto PC freedom in general, but the idea was that coming up with a detailed setting that operates like a World in Motion means the PC pursue THEIR goals, not MINE.  As a result, lots of time that ends up with areas that become micro-detailed as the PCs spend a lot of time there and get involved in things.

Specific examples...
The Phandelver mine.  By negotiating with the Mayor and the dwarves, and eliminating a lot of threats, the PCs managed to get a minor share of the mine as well as the land of the deserted house.  They're rebuilding the place, and making sure the secret area stays hidden so that they can use it as a secret treasure vault/bolthole.

Pictish Coast.  After a series of adventures where they traded with the coastal Picts in the area around where Korvela once stood, and helped the coastal tribes against some interior tribes who were controlled by a Snake-that-Speaks, they got the Picts to agree to let them rebuild Korvela as a trading post.  The Bossonian in the group is going to try and use his money to get some Bossonian settlers and mercs to go with him and make a trading fort for Free Bossonians out on the Pictish Coast.  That's going to get quite micro-detailed if he ever pulls it off.

Shadowrun, a russian samurai with very strong ties to the Vor is trying to do the Robin Hood thing of helping out the smaller agribusinesses and family farms in Snohomish against the larger corps via Shadowrunning, all with the goal of building a old-school grassroots Criminal Organization so embedded into the local community and power structure it can't be ripped out.  Ton of detailed stuff there between the corps, Mafia, Yazuza, city gov't etc..

Shadowrun, a team in the Redmond Barrens took over an old brick and stone office building down the street from the headquarters of a Black Market/Information Broker gang run by a Voodoo Priest.  They reinforced the place, make it a point to take out feral ghouls, organleggers, BTL-sellers, etc in the surrounding area, pay their dues to Lone Star and basically have an operations base until the gov't, military, or a corp wants to invest the money and resources to take out both the gang and the runners, basically level an entire large city block.  Lots of NPCs, social connections, gangs, etc... came out of that one.

MERP 4th Age.  A couple of the PCs were actual soldiers in the Reunited Kingdom, the others were traveling with them for their own reasons.  The group heads north from Minas Tirith to deliver messages to various outposts on the way to Laketown as well as give report on the disposition of their forces.  After a series of adventures uncovering what happened to a small fort on the way, and ending the threat, the PCs stay to rebuild the defenses of the fort.  When reinforced, the highest ranking PC is offered the temporary command of the fort until the next spring when a new commander can be sent.  He accepts and runs the fort while the other players serve as mercenary auxiliaries/consultants for almost a year.

Like BV said, it happens all the time.

All of those example sound really awesome. And I'd have to agree that, in a Conan campaign, meandering here and there is likely the point. Of course, I can recall a few counterexamples of players getting into micromanaging that were less than stellar.  In particular, there was this one group that, and I cannot remember how this happened, created some sort of weird game involving making a really big ball of cheese, covering it in leather, then playing a sort of soccer game against other people, with the losers having to eat the entire ball of cheese in one sitting. I think it had something to do with a player really wanting to use his characters cheesemaking skill. :-)

Quote from: cranebump;926219Having shifted gears toward the sandbox mode, using Dungeon World, which seems to support this thing pretty well, I am pleasantly astounded at how much my current players have going on in their base town, which is now the seat of every major thread in the campaign. The focus, as well as almost all the hooks, have grown organically from player decisions. Now, I suppose a different set of players might not toss in so many different things to run with, but my party of four does this, in spades. We've spent several sessions in and around our starting point, as the focus is on their party basically trying to mold the environment into a place they'd like to live.

So, intrigue is cranked up. Behind the scenes is engrossing, from a GM standpoint. We've had a couple of sessions where dice rolling was *relatively* rare, and it's been, as they say, a blast. My question is  about your similar experiences. Any of your own games generate a great deal of depth in a geographically small space? (I'm betting there's many, and look forward to any details I might steal).:-)

Yes.
And yes.

My games are all generally high-mortality games centered around similar areas and smaller geographies.  I also work mainly in one campaign, not with short games, and more often than not a group will end up in one of my main campaign centers that has been played for decades and that we have copious notes about.  2 specific examples come to mind.

My main live play group just passed session 180, and they started in and remain based in storied Igbar, capital of the border nation of Trabler.  We play a guild-heavy game, so the various power centers are well established.  And one of the nice things about a wiki is you can keep adding and linking on as time goes on.  That's one piece of advice, if you are looking to steal.  Details become more real, once they are added back in time and again.  I also like to break my towns and cities into neighborhoods and wards, which sort of allows the players to move through areas that are slightly differentiated.  

I would say my very best example of depth in a small geographic area is my online Collegium Arcana game.
The entire game, all 103 sessions so far, except for one trip to the Godstraat and one field trip to the Dilvan Outposts, has been played entirely in the ancient campus.  And to your point, almost all of it has been social and historical.  I actually was aiming to push the limits a bit, so because the players are playing the part of students, much of the game is interaction with other students, teachers, the Ancient Orders of the Collegium, a few ghosts, and a ton of old mysteries spilling out.  And I don't rush or railroad, so if it takes 70 sessions to figure out a major bit of the underlying storyline, that's ok.

Yes, and yes:). BV explained how and why it works...and I admit I've learned some tricks by his blog.
But I want to add something: a lot of times, when you have the web of relationships, it also means that you just know what's going to happen next. So preparing their home place is a great idea and ends up being a time saver;).

Quote from: CRKrueger;926668You know that KoDT storyline where the guys somehow got a hold of a farm and then dove into the micromanaging of the farm...my players are kind of like that.  I talked in that "boring GM" thread about "Seizing the Initiative with regards to campaign plotting." These bastards wrote the book.  When I can, I tend to run things that are pretty well prepped and detailed, and they have fun running with it.  

What starts out as passing through a small town on the way to check out rumors of an old dwarven mine not on anyone's maps turns into protecting and securing a poor neighboorhood from a brigand gang in the sewers, with one of the PCs retiring to stay behind after getting married.

What started out as 4 Vanir rowing south to adventure in Argos, has turned into getting involved in an ancient feud between immortal sorcerers, the search for the treasure of Bloody Tranicos, seizure of a pirate ship, becoming embroiled in the politics of civil war-torn Zingara, and is about to hit a highlight with the players teaming up with a Zingaran Freebooter to assault the island lair of a feared Barachan Pirate lord said to deal with Sorcerous powers.  They still haven't seen Messantia. Of course, being a Conan campaign, you could argue that starting a path, and then chaotically meandering down other paths whenever the interest strikes you is Working as Intended.

Death on the Reik led to the most glorious derailing of the Enemy Within campaign I've ever seen.  After the collapse of Castle Wittgenstein, the jaded Estalian noble wizard went back to find the statue of Slaanesh in the rubble...yeah things went slightly off track at that point.

You have good players.

Quote from: CRKrueger;926677I just realized I gloriously derailed my answer there, and sidetracked onto PC freedom in general, but the idea was that coming up with a detailed setting that operates like a World in Motion means the PC pursue THEIR goals, not MINE.  As a result, lots of time that ends up with areas that become micro-detailed as the PCs spend a lot of time there and get involved in things.

Tell me you did that on purpose:D!

Quote from: cranebump;926219So, intrigue is cranked up. Behind the scenes is engrossing, from a GM standpoint. We've had a couple of sessions where dice rolling was *relatively* rare, and it's been, as they say, a blast. My question is  about your similar experiences. Any of your own games generate a great deal of depth in a geographically small space? (I'm betting there's many, and look forward to any details I might steal).:-)

Congrats you have engaged the Soap Opera Effect and you can looks forward to at least a 20 season run. Well maybe not that long but the Soap Opera Effect means that players are into seeing what happens next both in the passive and active sense. As long running Soap Opera prove out that can go on for a very long time indeed.

The key thing to remember is that it is generally characters that provide the most long term bang for the buck. People are inherently more interested in people rather things things.

Yes, detailed places where the players stay and/or return to are common in my games. My first campaign started in the village detailed in In The Labryrinth, which provides a village map and stats for all the local people of note and so on. I started several players there and often they'd spend a bunch of time there and even developed their own interests there.

I and other GMs have often started campaigns out in the place the PCs are from, so they know each other and have a pre-adventure life context, and experience them shifting from a settled social life to an adventuring life.

Some a-typical examples of something other than being villagers or townfolk in a typical place:

* Players start as members of a wizard's guild or other group that trains people in magical skills, but has structures for learning and hierarchy and its own goals and concerns. Or there can be two settings at once if it needs to be kept private or secret, so the PCs also need to maintain a non-magic identity.

* Players are warriors/knights based in a fort/castle/walled town, and are part of that community and also get sent to deal with local issues.

* Players are modern investigators or agents (could be any modern profession where the PCs are co-workers) who work in the same building or office park, and that work environment gets detailed out and has various characters and situations, in addition to the out-of-office adventures. It can be interesting when there are huge reasons not to use the same techniques in your workplace as you would in the field.

* Space setting where the PCs are on a large ship or space station / base that is mapped and has a community of people on it.

* The players are "monster" or other types with non-human lifestyles, and the starting location is their lair or whatever other base they have. This can take a fair amount of thought and work for the GM, but also can be really interesting and revealing if you take the time to think about what it would take to make it work. And then during play you learn even more, as the players work with it and get creative and curious. It also has shot down the fun of a few PC ideas for me and others, but I still found it interesting and a positive thing overall - for example, when the players think it's cool to try playing some type of human-killing (or even just blood-sucking) monster, and you realize it'd work best for them if they kept and bred humans... ewwwrgh ok that can get unsympathetic really fast when you start facing the day to day realities.

I've also seen some issues, such as:

* When players start out with a detailed social context, and then leave, the play outside the home location can seem pretty empty/bland compared to where they came from. Especially a problem if they end up being unwelcome/wanted/hunted where they came from.

* If you set the detail bar higher than you can maintain, it can be a struggle to maintain and track all the detail that can develop in a place with a lot of people in it. Or at least, I've has some experiences in my earlier attempts where I bit off a lot more than I could chew and I got bogged down. I eventually got a lot better at managing it, but it took a lot of experience before I wasn't running into issues.

* If some players burn bridges in a setting and others don't, or if only some want to travel elsewhere, it can easily create circumstances that would naturally split or break a party. If you don't want that, that can be an issue.

* Running multiple groups / PCs separately in the same detailed location can be very fun and interesting and both save prep time and get you really full of content and interesting details and situations as a GM, but it can also present challenges if you want to keep their states consistent with each other. Different groups playing at different game times can limit what cause/effect/observation they can have on the setting (like a time travel paradox), and changes made and violence inflicted can be unfortunate. I tend to try to keep them in the same universe thread, but if/when there's a problem with that, split them.

Quote from: AsenRG;927053You have good players.

Yeah they trust me as GM to give them freedom and to play it straight, and I trust them to really roleplay and not try to metagame the system or me.  They tend to really get stuck in on the roleplaying side of things, which is why the OOC storytelling side of things really doesn't interest us.

Quote from: AsenRG;927053Tell me you did that on purpose:D!

Of course.

Quote from: estar;927058Congrats you have engaged the Soap Opera Effect and you can looks forward to at least a 20 season run. Well maybe not that long but the Soap Opera Effect means that players are into seeing what happens next both in the passive and active sense. As long running Soap Opera prove out that can go on for a very long time indeed.

The key thing to remember is that it is generally characters that provide the most long term bang for the buck. People are inherently more interested in people rather things things.

Agreed, it may be the things that bring them, but it's the people that keep them.

Quote from: CRKrueger;927121Agreed, it may be the things that bring them, but it's the people that keep them.

Well, I think since the place itself they've settled in isn't much to write home about, apart from its nearly blank canvas of possibility, that the personages must be somewhat of interest to them. Even the bit players they've met have something interesting about them, even if it's just kitschy or loopy (as I recall with the the pair of retainers sent with them on mission by a local lord, one of whom had a cajun accent so thick, they couldn't understand him--while the other sounded like a cast member on the Sopranos).

Quote from: CRKrueger;927121Yeah they trust me as GM to give them freedom and to play it straight, and I trust them to really roleplay and not try to metagame the system or me.  They tend to really get stuck in on the roleplaying side of things, which is why the OOC storytelling side of things really doesn't interest us.

It's a good group, as I said. I find players new to RPGs often expect this, but think it's natural to metagame:).

But you know my solution to metagaming, right? If it seems weird to you from an IC sense, let the NPCs see it this way, too. And since they don't know there's an OOC level, they might well get the wrong conclusions;).

QuoteOf course.

My trust in you was well-founded, green one:D!