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To be honest, I was hoping for more then banning raise dead from your game.

There's a lot that needs to be done to take 5e out of the default easy mode. Unfortunately, the game isn't as modular as it was originally advertised to be, and some of the quick fixes can quickly lead to unintended consequences. IMO, better to just play a game that defaults to the type of play you want (like WFRP) than to try and bend 5e into something it's really not (no matter how hard you squint).

Quote from: Shasarak on November 30, 2020, 05:33:44 PM
To be honest, I was hoping for more then banning raise dead from your game.

To be honest, that's exactly what I was expecting from Pundit though. His ideas are as predictable as a Swiss watch.

My limited experience with 5e though is that this wouldn't actually make it more tense because you almost never end up close enough to death past about level 3.

So here's my alternative to make 5e actually more tense... every time you drop to 0 hp, roll two 1d6s. The first determines an attribute (i.e. 1 is Str, 2 is Dex, etc.) the second is the penalty to that attribute that you suffer until you get a week's rest per such lasting injury suffered or a greater restoration spell cast on you (one per ability score affected as the spell notes).

Now being dropped to zero hit points isn't just a momentary inconvenience as you yo-yo up and down with the monsters unable to actually keep you down. Now every time you go down you're getting more and more disabled and with greater restoration being a 7th level spell it's probably going to be a lasting disability (at least the rest of the current adventure).

That'd make fights a LOT more tense than just no raise dead (which is frankly the most boring option I can think of... it's so intense having to sit out the rest of a session because something actually killed me until I make a new PC that's the same level as the one that died (because that's how 5e rolls) but has zero roleplaying connection to the existing party).

"Crap, I lost 5 points off my Strength and lost three points from my hit and damage! The wizard hits harder with his dagger than me now" or "-4 to Dex? Even with my Mage Armor up my AC is down to a 13" are both more tense in my experience because you're still in the action, but now everything is harder.

Quote from: Chris24601 on November 30, 2020, 08:18:27 PM
My limited experience with 5e though is that this wouldn't actually make it more tense because you almost never end up close enough to death past about level 3.

I have noticed in my Pathfinder games that no PC is completely safe from dropping, often it is only a crit or two away - and Pathfinder monsters get three attacks

Quote from: Chris24601 on November 30, 2020, 08:18:27 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on November 30, 2020, 05:33:44 PM
To be honest, I was hoping for more then banning raise dead from your game.

To be honest, that's exactly what I was expecting from Pundit though. His ideas are as predictable as a Swiss watch.

My limited experience with 5e though is that this wouldn't actually make it more tense because you almost never end up close enough to death past about level 3.

So here's my alternative to make 5e actually more tense... every time you drop to 0 hp, roll two 1d6s. The first determines an attribute (i.e. 1 is Str, 2 is Dex, etc.) the second is the penalty to that attribute that you suffer until you get a week's rest per such lasting injury suffered or a greater restoration spell cast on you (one per ability score affected as the spell notes).

Now being dropped to zero hit points isn't just a momentary inconvenience as you yo-yo up and down with the monsters unable to actually keep you down. Now every time you go down you're getting more and more disabled and with greater restoration being a 7th level spell it's probably going to be a lasting disability (at least the rest of the current adventure).

That'd make fights a LOT more tense than just no raise dead (which is frankly the most boring option I can think of... it's so intense having to sit out the rest of a session because something actually killed me until I make a new PC that's the same level as the one that died (because that's how 5e rolls) but has zero roleplaying connection to the existing party).

"Crap, I lost 5 points off my Strength and lost three points from my hit and damage! The wizard hits harder with his dagger than me now" or "-4 to Dex? Even with my Mage Armor up my AC is down to a 13" are both more tense in my experience because you're still in the action, but now everything is harder.

I'm oddly reminded of Darkest Dungeon and its penalties to characters that get knocked to death's door. Even if you heal them, they're still weaker until you leave the mission.

Greater restoration is a 5th level spell, though, not a 7th. Also, I'd be awfully damn careful about springing this on low level adventurers. One or two bad rolls could leave a party crippled and unable to extricate itself (yes, I know, but again, I don't go in for casual TPKs; if I kill off a party it's because They Done Fucked Up, not because the dice gods are feeling fickle).

I would roll 1d6, and reduce the appropriate score by 2 points. That's effectively a -1 to any checks involving it, which is still painful but not horrendously so.

If it's 5e D&D we're talking about, why not just add a level of Exhaustion when PCs hit 0 HP? That's what all the cool kids do.

As pointed out in the Players Handbook (1e), p. 40:

QuoteFirst, second, third, and even fourth level spells are granted to the cleric through meditation and devout prayer. This spell giving is accomplished by the lesser servants of the cleric's deity. Fifth, sixth, and seventh level spells can be given to the cleric ONLY by the cleric's deity directly, not through some intermediary source. Note that the cleric might well be judged by his or her deity at such time, as the cleric must supplicate the deity for the granting of these spells. While the deity may grant such spells full willingly, a deed, or sacrifice, atonement or abasement may be required. The deity might also ignore a specific spell request and give the cleric some other spell (or none at all). Your Dungeon Master will handle this considering a cleric's alignment and faithfulness to it and his or her deity.

This means that clerical spells of 5th level and above are not necessarily to be handed out like candy, and some cost could be given to them -- this is left to the DM's discretion as it should be. A good cleric for example who is well played might be trusted by his deity (i.e. the DM) to use raise dead sparingly, which means not raising non-heroic characters, those who died foolishly, and so on. Evil clerics will certainly demand outrageous fees for such services, even from fellow PCs. While those clerics who use such spells willy-nilly will be castigated by their deity and/or simply have the requests for such spells denied.

This is changed in the DMG, with only 6th and 7th level spells granted directly by the cleric's deity, but I believe it works better using the PHB's method.

With respect to healing spells, assuming psionics are in play, any such spell has a chance of provoking a roll on the psionic encounter table (DMG 1e, p. 182), which means that simply casting cure light wounds can result in an encounter with a demon prince or arch-devil.

Quote from: Cloyer Bulse on December 01, 2020, 07:48:45 AM
As pointed out in the Players Handbook (1e), p. 40:

QuoteFirst, second, third, and even fourth level spells are granted to the cleric through meditation and devout prayer. This spell giving is accomplished by the lesser servants of the cleric's deity. Fifth, sixth, and seventh level spells can be given to the cleric ONLY by the cleric's deity directly, not through some intermediary source. Note that the cleric might well be judged by his or her deity at such time, as the cleric must supplicate the deity for the granting of these spells. While the deity may grant such spells full willingly, a deed, or sacrifice, atonement or abasement may be required. The deity might also ignore a specific spell request and give the cleric some other spell (or none at all). Your Dungeon Master will handle this considering a cleric's alignment and faithfulness to it and his or her deity.

This means that clerical spells of 5th level and above are not necessarily to be handed out like candy, and some cost could be given to them -- this is left to the DM's discretion as it should be. A good cleric for example who is well played might be trusted by his deity (i.e. the DM) to use raise dead sparingly, which means not raising non-heroic characters, those who died foolishly, and so on. Evil clerics will certainly demand outrageous fees for such services, even from fellow PCs. While those clerics who use such spells willy-nilly will be castigated by their deity and/or simply have the requests for such spells denied.

This is changed in the DMG, with only 6th and 7th level spells granted directly by the cleric's deity, but I believe it works better using the PHB's method.

With respect to healing spells, assuming psionics are in play, any such spell has a chance of provoking a roll on the psionic encounter table (DMG 1e, p. 182), which means that simply casting cure light wounds can result in an encounter with a demon prince or arch-devil.

Are we playing D&D or Call of Cthulhu here? Jeez dude, if you tried to implement that last rule it'd be a race to see which player could force-feed you your own DMG first.

Quote from: Trinculoisdead on December 01, 2020, 12:33:52 AM
If it's 5e D&D we're talking about, why not just add a level of Exhaustion when PCs hit 0 HP? That's what all the cool kids do.

The main issue I have with exhaustion levels is that they're both too severe and not lasting enough to really amp the tension hard. They also lack any magical recovery backstop where resources can be used to counter them in an emergency.

By too severe I mean they're designed to pretty quickly leave you not disadvantaged going forward, but debilitated (a cumulative effect per level of... disadvantage on ability checks, speed halved, disadvantage on attacks and saves, max hit points halved, 0 speed, death). By not lasting long enough I mean they go away at a rate of one per long rest as long as you ate and drank during the day.

Ability Damage lets you tailor both the injury level (ex. a previous poster felt my suggestion 1d6 ability damage would be too much for their preferences and would set it at a flat 2 points) and the recovery time (one injury per week, one lost ability point per day, 1d6 points per week, one injury per month, etc.) to meet the precise rate that you feel fits your campaign.

A heroic campaign could set the ability damage lost at a flat 2 to a random stat and they recover 1d6 per long rest.  Characters can be beat down multiple times, but still be functional enough to not be useless for the rest of the adventuring day and can even recover in the field (particularly if they get a really good roll or a day or two where they don't get knocked down to 0 hp).

A more realistic campaign, particularly one set up for seasonal play (i.e. characters hunker in for the winter, overseeing planting in the spring, go on a few adventures in the summer months and do their best to be home by fall to hunker down again) might do better to have potentially crippling (1d6 loss) and lasting injuries (take a week of rest to recover each lost point), making the choice to sit out four weeks of the three month adventuring season to regain four lost points -or- to push on despite the injury and then recover in the fall and winter a real point of tension.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on December 01, 2020, 08:07:47 AM
Are we playing D&D or Call of Cthulhu here? Jeez dude, if you tried to implement that last rule it'd be a race to see which player could force-feed you your own DMG first.

People keep quoting things like that from the AD&D era and yet then also wonder why people prefer the later editions.

Here is what I do: I let PCs fight past 0 HP.

It feels more heroic and it's much more dangerous - but it is the player's choice.

There might be soem balance issues I'm missing here, but nothing hard to fix.

https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2019/12/sacrifice-d-5e-are-you-willing-to-die.html

Quote from: Chris24601 on December 01, 2020, 08:08:44 AM

Quote from: Trinculoisdead on December 01, 2020, 12:33:52 AM
If it's 5e D&D we're talking about, why not just add a level of Exhaustion when PCs hit 0 HP? That's what all the cool kids do.

The main issue I have with exhaustion levels is that they're both too severe and not lasting enough to really amp the tension hard. They also lack any magical recovery backstop where resources can be used to counter them in an emergency.

By too severe I mean they're designed to pretty quickly leave you not disadvantaged going forward, but debilitated (a cumulative effect per level of... disadvantage on ability checks, speed halved, disadvantage on attacks and saves, max hit points halved, 0 speed, death). By not lasting long enough I mean they go away at a rate of one per long rest as long as you ate and drank during the day.

Ability Damage lets you tailor both the injury level (ex. a previous poster felt my suggestion 1d6 ability damage would be too much for their preferences and would set it at a flat 2 points) and the recovery time (one injury per week, one lost ability point per day, 1d6 points per week, one injury per month, etc.) to meet the precise rate that you feel fits your campaign.

A heroic campaign could set the ability damage lost at a flat 2 to a random stat and they recover 1d6 per long rest.  Characters can be beat down multiple times, but still be functional enough to not be useless for the rest of the adventuring day and can even recover in the field (particularly if they get a really good roll or a day or two where they don't get knocked down to 0 hp).

A more realistic campaign, particularly one set up for seasonal play (i.e. characters hunker in for the winter, overseeing planting in the spring, go on a few adventures in the summer months and do their best to be home by fall to hunker down again) might do better to have potentially crippling (1d6 loss) and lasting injuries (take a week of rest to recover each lost point), making the choice to sit out four weeks of the three month adventuring season to regain four lost points -or- to push on despite the injury and then recover in the fall and winter a real point of tension.

Planting in the spring? I thought we were talking about D&D! Adventurers plant swords in troll's bellies and sow fear amongst the goblins. The only harvest they take part in is a bloody and a golden one.

Well, anyway, adjusting ability scores too often sucks, because you must update the ability modifier, which in turn alters a number of other mechanics. If these mechanics did not exist or if ability modifiers were absent, then that would be alright. As it is, the amount of book-keeping required to implement ability loss is rather high.

Isn't there a way to reduce Exhaustion's severity, while also slowing its recovery?

I'll re-post this here (originally posted in the Design sub-forum):

So, I had a brain fart listening to Pundit's latest video (the one about eliminating easy resurrection in new school games) and thinking about Microscope at the same time. It's like oil and water mixed and threw up a cloud of angry prickly steam. I want to know if this has been done before.

Given that:

1. OSR games are deadly and, in my view, this is a good thing. Character creation starts with "character creation" and arguably continues until the character dies; and

2. In Microscope, you can play dead characters by simply adding to the story at a time before their death. A character can die in the very first scene. If you want to know about that character, you just play a period/event/scene where that character was still alive. Essentially, you play a younger version of that character.

Q. Is there a published TTRPG mechanic/game that provides for play of earlier versions of dead characters?

Suppose during a campaign, Muffy the Mage gets axed in the head by a crazed gnome. Everyone is sad, but this is OSR and thems the breaks. Maybe later you play a one-shot set in the past where Muffy is alive and obivously younger. The other players could play younger versions of their characters or different characters entirely. Muffy is dead but can still be played. The one-shot might give rise to interesting things when the campaign is resumed, like: "We were sad when Muffy bought it, but reflecting on the past (the one-shot), she was kind of a bitch."

Quote from: Shasarak on November 30, 2020, 05:33:44 PM
To be honest, I was hoping for more then banning raise dead from your game.

I make raising dead so difficult that it becomes an adventure all of it's own, one with a high probability of failure. If it does succeed there are going to be consequences, the natural order does't like to be subverted. The person raised isn't coming back the same and something on the other side is almost certainly going to be pissed off.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 30, 2020, 10:08:52 PM
I would roll 1d6, and reduce the appropriate score by 2 points. That's effectively a -1 to any checks involving it, which is still painful but not horrendously so.

Sorry, this is weak sauce for death. -1 is not a penalty. It does not register as statistically significant. The noise in your d20 is too high for even a -2 to register in a small number of rolls.