Quote from: J ArcaneSee, this is exactly what I'm trying to get at.  There's a distinction, to me, and an important one.  Unfortunately, thanks to the exposure fo the more unpleasant segments of furry fandom, there are now a large number of people, furry fans or no, who see the second category, and automatically lump it into the first.

And I don't think that's fair at all.  I don't like getting looked at like I'm a fucking pervert because I happen to be a fan of a few things that fall into that second category.  And I doubt their creators care much for their art being dismissed even if it has nothing with the first category.

Oh, it isn't fair.  But the only thing you can really do about it is correct people and keep on keeping on.  As I'm trying to do.

Quote from: RedFoxOh, it isn't fair.  But the only thing you can really do about it is correct people and keep on keeping on.  As I'm trying to do.

I guess in the end, we sort of agree on what the problem is, we just differ completely on the solution.

I can't think of a single hobby/fandom that managed, after slipping to being controlled by the extremist fanboy wing of the hobby, to drag themselves out of that and head back toward normalcy.

Hell, it seems to me that even groups that haven't been totally subverted by their own lawncrappers can only usually do a holding action or lose ground, but I can't think of one that has seriously regained ground.

Unfortunately... because this doesn't bode too well for RPGs.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditI can't think of a single hobby/fandom that managed, after slipping to being controlled by the extremist fanboy wing of the hobby, to drag themselves out of that and head back toward normalcy.

Hell, it seems to me that even groups that haven't been totally subverted by their own lawncrappers can only usually do a holding action or lose ground, but I can't think of one that has seriously regained ground.

Unfortunately... because this doesn't bode too well for RPGs.

RPGPundit

I dunno.  Board wargames seemed to have slipped into obscurity by right of focusing more and more on the tiny hardcore subset that wanted uber complex shit like what GMT puts out.  It basically killed the whole market by driving out anyone who wasn't an obsessive compulsive masochist.

But then in the last few years we had stuff like Lock 'n' Load hit, and even the Starfleet Battles guys released a lighter rewrite that got rave reviews and apparently drew in a lot of people who'd otherwise run far and away from the nightmare that was SFB.  

Mind you though, horridly complex rules are a bit easier to get over than the image of a horse with breasts and a six-foot penis drinking it's own semen.

Quote from: RedFoxHowever, in regards to furry fandom it has a very specific definition.  The term was invented by furry fans for furry fans.  People outside the fandom often misuse or misunderstand the term, which is what I've been pointing out.

Okay,

QuoteYou can claim that whatever you want "isn't furry" all you want, but that isn't going to change how furry fans use the term.  You can make up your own personal definitions like you've done, and if they work for you fine.

But...

Furry fans aren't the only ones using the term, and they certainly aren't the only ones who have a right to the word. To flip your argument around, you can use furry to mean whatever you want, but that isn't going to change how non-furry fans use it. As a non-fan, whose only exposure has been on the net, the conotation that has come across to me is a fetishistic one. Furry fans may mean whatever they mean, but the fact is the non-furry community perceives it as eroticising anthros.

QuotePsst, egyptian gods are furry.  Lots of furry fans dig 'em for that reason.  I've seen some really great fan art of Anubis.

This makes no sense to me at all. Firstly, they aren't animals, they are gods. Secondly, they have human bodies. I didn't think chimeras counted. With that in mind, I think I'll do a survey.

Which of the following, that I don't think of as furry, do you regard as furries?

If human bodies with animal heads count, how about the reverse?
The Sphinx?
Nagas?
Medusa and her sisters?
Centaurs?
Manticores?
The fish in the acquarium from "The Meaning of Life"?

To expand the search pattern,
The mice of Redwall?
How about the rabbits of Watership Down?
The Fantastic Mr. Fox?
Planet of the Apes?
Animal Farm?
White Fang or Call of the Wild?
The Jungle Book?
Finding Nemo?
Aesop's Fables?
Coyote and Raven from North American mythology?
How about Zeus (he turned into a bull)? Echidna and Typhon? Arachne?
How about Shelob? The Great Eagles? Mearas?
King Kong?
Godzilla? Rodan? Mothra? Megaguirus?
Okay, the Bugs from Starship Troopers aren't that anthro, what about Timnits (RQ) or Thri-Kreen(D&D)?
Clakars?
Aeriads from Talislanta?
Werewolves?
Skaven?

Just wondering what the limits are.

Quote from: J ArcaneI dunno.  Board wargames seemed to have slipped into obscurity by right of focusing more and more on the tiny hardcore subset that wanted uber complex shit like what GMT puts out.  It basically killed the whole market by driving out anyone who wasn't an obsessive compulsive masochist.

That trend started before TSR took over SPI, GMT is a latter-day Avalon Hill successor. Recently though things are stablizing, companies are gauging interest, & there're some good lighter wargames in print. Some examples are Phalanx Games, the Memoir '44 series and the revamped Axis & Allies series. The better companies put and update rules, preview and supplemental material online and engage in discussion with their fanbase.

GMT in the last 5 years or so have put out some light games including card games, card based wargames, Euro-style games, and a simple version of their Great Battles of History series as well as medium level games. They have few actual monster games though their main series rules tend towards too complex for most gamers. Star Fleet Battles has Federation Commander as well as the aforementioned (& excellent) Battle Force*. Even Advanced Squad Leader has starter sets now. If they could just finish redoing and release the Panzerblitz series & the ASL card game.

The smaller companies do suffer from higher costs and lack of distribution. Going to 250 or 500 preorders. In general wargames are how the RPG industry/fandom could turn out. In some ways they're already there.

* itself an adapation of Naval Battles IIRC, which Phalanx has reissued

Quote from: apparition13Okay,

But...

Furry fans aren't the only ones using the term, and they certainly aren't the only ones who have a right to the word. To flip your argument around, you can use furry to mean whatever you want, but that isn't going to change how non-furry fans use it. As a non-fan, whose only exposure has been on the net, the conotation that has come across to me is a fetishistic one. Furry fans may mean whatever they mean, but the fact is the non-furry community perceives it as eroticising anthros.

So true.