Quote from: Xanther;237896Your and others recollections mesh with mine, although we never gave xp for gp.  I recall we got into RPGs (for me 1976) to avoid precise definitions of "victory" from war games and took to heart that there was no winning or losing in an RPG just how you played the game.  Of course losing a cherished character could still suck but without real risk of death the rewards were not so sweet.

I think we kept track of the treasure xp pretty much up to the end, but we stopped counting copper and silver, unless we had piles of it.  The last few adventures we went on were danger rich but treasure poor, so I don't think it was much of an issue the last couple of levels.

Of course, these were epic world-saving adventures in the Nine Hells, so the treasure wasn't too important at that point.  

For the record, I think this thread friggin' rocks. A lot of good ideas being thrown around without any name-calling (yet). Nice.

Depending on the type of game I want to run I sometimes give XP for treasure and sometimes I do not. But... but... the XP reward was for the stash XP, not the character using it's XP. Everyone working towards that stash gets the XP. I always found that worked better and led to less bitching. Sometimes I want to run a game where treasure doesn't really come into play much (I've run AD&D 1e games that resembled A Game of Thrones, so they got story XP over gold XP). So yea, it depends.

I was floored the first time I heard the term "dead levels". Of course it was in a WotC article. Figures. Isn't a few more Hit Points, a better chance to hit (usually), better saves, and a new title enough anymore? You're getting something, but apparently it isn't good enough. So they're not "dead levels", they're just "not good enough levels". Christ. I never feel old, even when talking music or politics, until I start talking about gaming. Then I feel like a relic.



-=Grim=-

Quote from: GrimJesta;238153For the record, I think this thread friggin' rocks. A lot of good ideas being thrown around without any name-calling (yet). Nice.

Depending on the type of game I want to run I sometimes give XP for treasure and sometimes I do not. But... but... the XP reward was for the stash XP, not the character using it's XP. Everyone working towards that stash gets the XP. I always found that worked better and led to less bitching. Sometimes I want to run a game where treasure doesn't really come into play much (I've run AD&D 1e games that resembled A Game of Thrones, so they got story XP over gold XP). So yea, it depends.

I was floored the first time I heard the term "dead levels". Of course it was in a WotC article. Figures. Isn't a few more Hit Points, a better chance to hit (usually), better saves, and a new title enough anymore? You're getting something, but apparently it isn't good enough. So they're not "dead levels", they're just "not good enough levels". Christ. I never feel old, even when talking music or politics, until I start talking about gaming. Then I feel like a relic.



-=Grim=-

I've never heard this term (shows how much I pay attention), but I actually do think that there are "dead levels" in the newest incarnation of D&D. Since monsters explicitly with no exceptions scale up to be enough for the party to handle, when you hit a level that doesn't give you a power or a feat or whatever it doesn't quite mean as much. Since, you know, you may have more HP but so does everything else.

Which, I suppose, is a concept I'm not too fond of. At least for D&D. It works for other games.

Maaan. Now I have a hankerin' to play Labyrinth Lord. No such luck in my area, though.

Quote from: jswa;238164I've never heard this term (shows how much I pay attention), but I actually do think that there are "dead levels" in the newest incarnation of D&D. Since monsters explicitly with no exceptions scale up to be enough for the party to handle, when you hit a level that doesn't give you a power or a feat or whatever it doesn't quite mean as much. Since, you know, you may have more HP but so does everything else.

Which, I suppose, is a concept I'm not too fond of. At least for D&D. It works for other games.

Maaan. Now I have a hankerin' to play Labyrinth Lord. No such luck in my area, though.

Sounds like someone is looking for a PbP or IRC game...  

Quote from: jswa;238164Maaan. Now I have a hankerin' to play Labyrinth Lord. No such luck in my area, though.

My GF and I have talked about moving somewhere else and Portland does come up a lot. If we do you'd have two people totally down for LL. It's unlikely this will be any time soon.

Anyways, yea, the concept of monsters leveling up with the PCs does kinda kill the awesomeness of gaining those Hit Points. They're not an edge at all. That sucks.

-=Grim=-

Leveling has always been a big deal.  New HP, new spells, new thief percentages are always cool.  

The dead level thing is a 3.x relic that mostly was an issue because you always had to weigh your next primary class level vs. the quality of a multi-class level vs. a prestige class level.  (Answer = prestige class level)

4e does not have the same problem (it has new and different ones) because everyone progresses exactly the same.  AKA, at 4th level, everyone gets +1 to two stats and a new feat and at 5th level, everyone gets a new daily.   And with the ability to retro-fit your character somewhat each level, the player should never feel they made their character wrong.

Unless you don't have an 18 in your primary stat.  Then you're boned.

Quote from: GrimJesta;238172My GF and I have talked about moving somewhere else and Portland does come up a lot. If we do you'd have two people totally down for LL. It's unlikely this will be any time soon.

Anyways, yea, the concept of monsters leveling up with the PCs does kinda kill the awesomeness of gaining those Hit Points. They're not an edge at all. That sucks.

-=Grim=-

Portland is a fantastic city. I was a little wary of it at first (nothing to do with Portland, just that I came from a relatively small town), but now that I'm used to it I love it and can't imagine living anywhere else.

Quote from: StormBringer;238170Sounds like someone is looking for a PbP or IRC game...  

Haha. Maybe so. I've never done either.

Quote from: GrimJesta;238153For the record, I think this thread friggin' rocks. A lot of good ideas being thrown around without any name-calling (yet). Nice.

Thanks!

QuoteDepending on the type of game I want to run I sometimes give XP for treasure and sometimes I do not. But... but... the XP reward was for the stash XP, not the character using it's XP. Everyone working towards that stash gets the XP. I always found that worked better and led to less bitching. Sometimes I want to run a game where treasure doesn't really come into play much (I've run AD&D 1e games that resembled A Game of Thrones, so they got story XP over gold XP). So yea, it depends.

Yeah, even when Spinachcat wrote out the line from the DMG, I was astonished.  The person who gets the item gets the xp?  That would be a perfect way for intra-party fighting to ruin an evening when the Cleric lays claim to the +3 Frostbrand for the xp.  Yikes!

QuoteI was floored the first time I heard the term "dead levels". Of course it was in a WotC article. Figures. Isn't a few more Hit Points, a better chance to hit (usually), better saves, and a new title enough anymore? You're getting something, but apparently it isn't good enough. So they're not "dead levels", they're just "not good enough levels". Christ. I never feel old, even when talking music or politics, until I start talking about gaming. Then I feel like a relic.



-=Grim=-

I have this feeling that things have changed drastically.  The only place I can really imagine this being important is in a competitive game where you want or need to grind levels and get the shiny to boost your combat ability.

Quote from: Spinachcat;2381794e does not have the same problem (it has new and different ones) because everyone progresses exactly the same.  AKA, at 4th level, everyone gets +1 to two stats and a new feat and at 5th level, everyone gets a new daily.   And with the ability to retro-fit your character somewhat each level, the player should never feel they made their character wrong.

I noticed a thread over on tBP about ability re-training.

Quote from: jswa;238181Haha. Maybe so. I've never done either.

Play by Post can be glacially slow, even when everyone is fairly consistent, but IRC can be as difficult to organize as a sit down game.  There are several internet tables, like Screen Monkey, with better options than IRC, but same the same issue with time commitments.

I'm all up for running some Castle Amber, or a few intro adventures to get up to the requisite 3rd-6th level.

Do screen monkey, fantasy grounds and all those work with dial up?

Quote from: Aos;238607Do screen monkey, fantasy grounds and all those work with dial up?

I would say 'yes', but probably not well.  Fantasy Grounds is pretty graphic intensive.  Screen Monkey looks a bit easier on the graphics, and their system requirements say 56k or better.