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Author Topic: {Olde School} GP=XP=?  (Read 2229 times)

StormBringer

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{Olde School} GP=XP=?
« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2008, 03:08:01 PM »
Quote from: Spinachcat;237512
AD&D 1e DMG page 121
"The suggested experience point (x.p.) values are for characters who keep the items.  Gold piece sale values are the usual sums sums which characters will be paid for magical items, and if so sold, the x.p. award should be based on the selling price of the items, not the x.p. value.   Also remember that a character is assumed to retain an item, thus getting the low x.p. value for it, if he or she sells it to another player character."
I guess we skipped that page.  :)
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VBWyrde

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« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2008, 03:46:52 PM »
Quote from: StormBringer;237438
Part of this is the notion of how the idea of levels have changed.  Back in my day, you got a level, some more hit points, maybe a new spell, or additional spells, and that was it.  This talk of 'dead levels' where you don't get a skill point, or a new feat, or an ability boost is still kind of confusing for me.


My guess is this has something to do with Computer RPGs that have reshaped people's expectations about RPGs and how they *should* work.   Back when D&D started in 1974 or so there were no computer games so the expectations were based on our analog experiences of the real world.  So leveling was not the same concept as it is now with the Computer Game point of view wherein everything that happens in the game is Points oriented.  Did I get the XP?  How many Spells do I get?   What's my Treasure Score?  And so on.   My recollection is that in the old days it was more about Where are we going to adventure?   Do we have the moxie to take on the Litch of Black Mountain?   What if the Prince of Agmar decides to oppose us because we destroyed the Temple of Rhathkasha?   And so on.   More about the Story, less about the Numbers.   That's my impression for what it's worth.
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« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2008, 03:55:03 PM »
I knew someone would have a DMG handy!

Thanks.:cool:
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Ikrast

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{Olde School} GP=XP=?
« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2008, 05:16:50 PM »
The tight coupling between experience and gold value was one of the brokennesses of AD&D 1e, IMHO. Not drastically broken, and I gamed it that way for a long while. But now I just award experience when the players accomplish something cool or amusing; and let gold and items be their own reward. It works better.

I agree that "levelling up" is a videogame concept and has little to do with what the old school game is really about. Not that it wasn't wonderful to get that extra hit die, but... it wasn't why you played.
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StormBringer

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« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2008, 05:21:52 PM »
Quote from: VBWyrde;237531
My guess is this has something to do with Computer RPGs that have reshaped people's expectations about RPGs and how they *should* work.   Back when D&D started in 1974 or so there were no computer games so the expectations were based on our analog experiences of the real world.  So leveling was not the same concept as it is now with the Computer Game point of view wherein everything that happens in the game is Points oriented.  Did I get the XP?  How many Spells do I get?   What's my Treasure Score?  And so on.
Which is odd, because it seems like BECMI or AD&D would have translated fairly well into a computer format, almost verbatim.  Especially with the well-defined chunks of advancement.  I mean, evolving from Nethack or Angband into a more free-form game would have been natural.  You start out in a town or something, and you have several or many locations to choose from, each of which has multiple levels.

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My recollection is that in the old days it was more about Where are we going to adventure?   Do we have the moxie to take on the Litch of Black Mountain?   What if the Prince of Agmar decides to oppose us because we destroyed the Temple of Rhathkasha?   And so on.   More about the Story, less about the Numbers.   That's my impression for what it's worth.
I recall the books were written with a strong emphasis on the dungeon levels corresponding to the character levels, and what monsters you could expect to find there.  Not only placed, but the wandering monsters, also.
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StormBringer

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« Reply #20 on: August 20, 2008, 05:34:52 PM »
Quote from: Ikrast;237578
The tight coupling between experience and gold value was one of the brokennesses of AD&D 1e, IMHO. Not drastically broken, and I gamed it that way for a long while. But now I just award experience when the players accomplish something cool or amusing; and let gold and items be their own reward. It works better.

I agree that "levelling up" is a videogame concept and has little to do with what the old school game is really about. Not that it wasn't wonderful to get that extra hit die, but... it wasn't why you played.
I would have to disagree, it made for an excellent gauge for level advancement.  Characters getting levels too fast?  Cut back on the treasure and let them earn monster xp for a while.  Taking too long to get levels?  Bump the sack of coppers to a small chest of electrum behind those three orcs.

Random treasure generation works best when you award xp for finding it.  The recent complaints about getting a 'useless' magic item in the old days make sense only if you didn't get xp for it.  I don't recall if we ever sold items, or if it was even an option when we played.  I think that idea did some serious damage to the idea of getting xp for items, coupled with the de-emphasis on henchmen.  You could always get a quick boost to Loyalty by tossing that +1 dagger to a henchman.
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Aos

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« Reply #21 on: August 20, 2008, 05:37:02 PM »
GP=XP was something that was house ruled away so early in the day that I can't even remember when it happened. Sometime in the early, early 80's most likely. I ported it to every group I ever played with- DM or player. Usually, all I'd say was, "I don't give xp for treasure." And that was that.
I usually played a thief in those days or a magic user (I always hated that name for a class, btw)- and you can minimize it all you want, but we DID get something for leveling up. We'd often talk about the happy futeure day when you'd be able to cast fireball, frex, and fuck- we needed that extra hit die, bad.
However, leveling up wasn't why I played then and it isn't the reason I play the game now. That said, I knew plenty of guys back in the day who were in it JUST for that. I had friends who weren't willing to play Traveller because the experience mechanic wasn't dramatic enough for them.
In other words I repectfuly disagree with your main point, SB.

I'd also like to ask a question: How old were you when you started playing?
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RandallS

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« Reply #22 on: August 20, 2008, 05:50:38 PM »
Quote from: StormBringer;237438
This talk of 'dead levels' where you don't get a skill point, or a new feat, or an ability boost is still kind of confusing for me.

That's one of the things I just don't get either -- especially since even on a so-called dead-level the character still gets more hit points and generally a slightly better chance to hit and save. Back in the OD&D/AD&D days you could go several levels without any change beyond a few more hit points. The game was still fun to play. I don't remember anyone complaining about "dead levels."

The other thing I really don't get about modern play is "niche protection." Huh? Back when I played every weekend with 12+ players present we depended on character personality to tell the five fighters apart, not game mechanics. Nanok the Swordsman was quite different from Black Bart the Swordsman even though their game mechanics fiddly bits were identical. I can not remember any player ever complaining about how four other players with fighter characters prevented his character from being special.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2008, 07:21:10 PM by RandallS »
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StormBringer

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« Reply #23 on: August 20, 2008, 05:51:36 PM »
Quote from: Aos;237590
GP=XP was something that was house ruled away so early in the day that I can't even remember when it happened. Sometime in the early, early 80's most likely. I ported it to every group I ever played with- DM or player. Usually, all I'd say was, "I don't give xp for treasure." And that was that.
For the reasons outlined above, I think that was a bad idea.  ;)

Quote
I usually played a thief in those days or a magic user (I always hated that name for a class, btw)- and you can minimize it all you want, but we DID get something for leveling up. We'd often talk about the happy futeure day when you'd be able to cast fireball, frex, and fuck- we needed that extra hit die, bad.
I played Our Magic User, and usually the cleric henchman.  I totally dug getting new spells and more use of the spells I had, but most of the discussions I have read don't count that as a feature of leveling up.  Mostly, it's the new feat pick, or the new class feature or something.  In that context, pretty much all the levels for any class were 'dead'.

But that goes back to the 'player skill' vs 'character skill' discussion.

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That said, Leveling up wasn't why I played then and it isn't the reason I play the game now. That said, I knew plenty of guys back in the day who were in it JUST for that. I had friends who weren't willing to play Traveller because the experience mechanic wasn't dramatic enough for them.
In other words I repectfuly disagree with your main point, SB.
Of course, and you wouldn't be the first.  Although, the 'respectfully' part is kind of new for me.  :)

Sure, there were all kinds of stories about 40th level MUs pushing Thor off a high wall and collecting Mjolnir, or the 50th level thief that could backstab a castle into rubble.  My own group fell somewhere in the middle, so it took us about three years or so to get up to the 15th level range.  That was usually every other weekend, more in the summer when we were out of school, obviously.

Quote
I'd also like to ask a question: How old were you when you started playing?
I was around 11 or 12, so about 1983.  We started out with Red Box, but moved on to AD&D rather quickly.
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Aos

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« Reply #24 on: August 20, 2008, 05:59:37 PM »
Quote from: StormBringer;237603



Of course, and you wouldn't be the first.  Although, the 'respectfully' part is kind of new for me.  :)



It's all puppies and gumdrops over here. :)
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StormBringer

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« Reply #25 on: August 20, 2008, 06:21:57 PM »
Quote from: RandallS;237601
That's one of the things I just don't get either -- especially since even on a so-called dead-level the character still gets more hit points and generally a slightly better chance to hit and save. Back in the OD&D/AD&D days you could go several levels without any change beyond a few more hit points. The game was still fun to play. I don't remember anyone complaining about "dead levels."
Exactly.  The whole concept is a new one, begat with the idea that a new level meant a new shiny to play with.  As VBWyrde mentions, probably a computer game response to make things 'better'.

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The other thing I really don't get about modern play is "niche protection." Huh? Back when I played every weekend with 12+ players present we depended on character personality to tell the five fighters apart, not game mechanics. Nanok the Swordsman was quite different from Black Bart the Swordsman even though their game mechanics fiddly bits were identical. I can remember any player ever complaining about how four other players with fighter characters prevented his character from being special.
Absolutely.  There were only five of us, and the DM, so it wasn't much of  an issue we ever had to consider.  As I recall, it was my MU, the fighter, the cleric, the human thief, the halfling thief, and the gnome fighter/illusionist(?).  We never had a problem stepping on toes, because we didn't consider ourselves in a 'niche' of any kind.  It makes me cringe when someone these days says 'those roles were always in the game', after which I get an irresistable urge to slap them silly.  :)  No, in fact, we never had a 'tank'.  No one was worried about being 'sticky'.  We didn't set the thief up for 'striking'.  We did what was necessary to pull off a win.  And sometimes that meant the thief would draw attacks while the cleric started whacking things.

And God Almighty, youngsters, Magic Users could absolutely not take over everyone's duties, even at high levels.  There was no way in the Nine Hells that I could blow six second level spell slots on knock and spider climb just to...  Honestly, I can't think of a good reason at all to do that.  Why would I want to open three doors and climb three walls per day better than the thief?  And after those six spells were cast, then what?  You still had to have the thief doing it manually.

And who came up with the idea of the cleric as Band-Aid dispenser?  If we had to fall back on the cleric to heal everyone, it was because we made some major mistakes, and were already on the way out.  And that happened more than once.  We needed the cleric on the front lines supporting the fighter, or we would have been slaughtered.

Niche protection is crazy talk.  :)
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Aos

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« Reply #26 on: August 20, 2008, 06:24:27 PM »
Quote from: StormBringer;237626
Exactly.

Niche protection is crazy talk.  :)


I agree.
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Ikrast

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« Reply #27 on: August 20, 2008, 08:36:17 PM »
Let's all say it unison...

"Kids these days! Self-absorbed whiny brats who don't know what it is to fear an orc at first level, who want a shiny new power every week to go with the godlike ones they already have, videogamers at heart who think it's about winning... munchkins, all of them!"

There. I feel better. Thanks!
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StormBringer

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« Reply #28 on: August 20, 2008, 09:49:58 PM »
Quote from: Ikrast;237679
Let's all say it unison...

"Kids these days! Self-absorbed whiny brats who don't know what it is to fear an orc at first level, who want a shiny new power every week to go with the godlike ones they already have, videogamers at heart who think it's about winning... munchkins, all of them!"

There. I feel better. Thanks!
In a sense.  The somewhat underlying point I am making is that things were very different in the early days.  A lot of the things I hear about regarding olde school games appears to come from a lack of understanding as to why it was done that way.  There is a bit of cranky old gamer in there, but more importantly, the stories I hear about the problems people mention leads me to believe they were doing something wrong.  I mean, I can't imagine how a magic user can overshadow everyone else in the party, but I hear it a fair bit.  I guess I could come up with a spell list that could do that, but if any situation came up that was different than 'do everyone else's job', you would be in a very bad place.  So, I think that much of these things come up from the very different expectations engendered by computer games, as VBWyrde mentioned.  Perhaps by getting some of us Olde School folks to describe how we played, or what we thought of it, the process can be made clearer.  No, your fighter didn't have to just sit there whacking on the bad guys.  No, your magic user didn't have to make sure and load up on daggers before leaving town.  The cleric was more than a mobile aid station.  More to the point, if you ended up in combat, you made some hasty decisions already, and it is going to cost you.  Of course, there are other major differences, too.

For instance, the 'dead levels'.  It never occurred to many people that levels needed new features every xp crest.   You got a little pat on the back, and went about your business.  The new title was snazzy, but more importantly - as mentioned earlier - now you have a better chance of taking on level 5.  Or an easier time clearing out level 4.  Or if your group eschewed dungeoneering, you could start getting rid of those orcs on the piece of land where you want to build your keep in four or five levels.

Several people have mentioned that gold and treasure are their own reward.  Well, in a similar vein, we always saw a level as its own reward, too.  You've survived run-ins with creatures both deadly and merely annoying; you have escaped with uncounted fistfuls of treasure, and now it is time to up the stakes again.  The fighter gets 3/2 attacks, the thief gets another multiplier to their backstab, the magic user and the cleric add a couple of spells, or try to learn a new one.  Lift an ale to your success!

Now, get back out there.  The treasure isn't going to deliver itself into your Leomund's Chest.  :)
« Last Edit: August 20, 2008, 10:00:03 PM by StormBringer »
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Xanther

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« Reply #29 on: August 21, 2008, 10:34:10 AM »
Quote from: StormBringer;237702
Perhaps by getting some of us Olde School folks to describe how we played, or what we thought of it, the process can be made clearer.  
 Your and others recollections mesh with mine, although we never gave xp for gp. :)  I recall we got into RPGs (for me 1976) to avoid precise definitions of "victory" from war games and took to heart that there was no winning or losing in an RPG just how you played the game.  Of course losing a cherished character could still suck but without real risk of death the rewards were not so sweet.