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Author Topic: Why does 5e suck at the Exploration pillar?  (Read 8168 times)

rawma

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Why does 5e suck at the Exploration pillar?
« Reply #105 on: September 22, 2019, 12:54:14 AM »
Quote from: Opaopajr;1105357
Mage Hand fruit vendor example is not really portaying my issue. It's the frequency and ease. It is hard to contain the unlimited use of exceptional rules -- and spells are ALL exceptional rules.

One of the first AL session I had some Wizard was whipping their dick around by picking up a Fighter's unattended weapon during Rest and putting it 25' up a tree. Given the ten pound limit that's all weapons in the PHB but the Pike & Hvy Xbow. The GM had to insert "combat" which immediately invokes AL charter that the party puts aside its differences and cooperates -- thus ending what would have evolved into PvP.

One story out of many, but it helped cement my presumption of the stupidity of unlimted cantrips.


If a tabaxi rogue used stealth/sleight of hand to take the weapon and climbed the tree to leave it there, how would that be different? How are unlimited cantrips responsible for this? How would limited cantrips have fixed it?

The AL rules used to include a code of conduct ("Participants must not conduct themselves in a manner that is disruptive to the enjoyment or safety of others at the event") although it seems to have been left out in the current season. There also used to be a rule of "No Undermining Other Characters" (and not only in combat). But disruptive behavior is still subject to sanction (in game loss of renown benefits or even being booted from the table and losing rewards for the session).

Shasarak

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Why does 5e suck at the Exploration pillar?
« Reply #106 on: September 22, 2019, 02:40:15 AM »
Quote from: rawma;1105313
from the very beginning. OD&D wandering monster tables included player character types by level name, and no other rules than the Men & Magic to specify their abilities. Even in 1e as Shaasarak observes, rather than listing spells in a stat block, NPCs descriptions often just said Nth level magic-user or whatever.


So even from ODnD then.  I wonder where the no NPC character fallacy originated from?
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Opaopajr

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Why does 5e suck at the Exploration pillar?
« Reply #107 on: September 22, 2019, 04:51:06 AM »
Quote from: Bren;1105373
Unlimited? Wow. That really is stupid. (For those keeping score, I feel it was moderately important to call that out.) But I guess it lets the casters just keep mashing that cantrip button round after round like it was an arcade game.

The only real limit is time. Yes, you may mash the button. Yes, you can do this on cantrips that have casting times anywhere from one round (6 seconds)  to Ten Minutes.

Yes, you have unlimited Mending (10 min. cast time) to prevent time from wearing or destroying knowledge conveyances, such as the written word. ;) Yes. The full ramifications of everlasting intel never fading from travel... is unexplored and considered a waste of a 'pew pew' cantrip slot. :rolleyes: Yes, unlimited Message, too. Yes, unlimited Move Earth (you can play "Dig Dug" now). Yes.

Exhaustion exists but is mostly unused (not explicitly RAW, not explicitly optional, just... there, rarely triggered in adventures and product), and sleep requirements sorta exist (except for Features that give rise to things like the Coffeelock), but otherwise: Yes, unlimited. :cool: One can now play Gauntlet with the wizard, just the like valkyrie! :rolleyes:

Quote from: rawma;1105390
If a tabaxi rogue used stealth/sleight of hand to take the weapon and climbed the tree to leave it there, how would that be different? How are unlimited cantrips responsible for this? How would limited cantrips have fixed it?

The AL rules used to include a code of conduct ("Participants must not conduct themselves in a manner that is disruptive to the enjoyment or safety of others at the event") although it seems to have been left out in the current season. There also used to be a rule of "No Undermining Other Characters" (and not only in combat). But disruptive behavior is still subject to sanction (in game loss of renown benefits or even being booted from the table and losing rewards for the session).

In the example used the GM did invoke the AL charter. There is leeway for players to "play their PCs" until it is disruptive and the GM invoked the letter-of-the-law before having a chat afterwards (avoiding the "But it's what my PC would do!" whinge mid-game).  That does not stop passive-aggressive hell from happening. And it shows up even worse in home games without a strong GM laying down the law. And given I was helping cultivate a new batch of GMs with 5e's rise... I got to see a lot of growing pains shit. :mad:

Rules cannot save from asshole. ;) But rules can embolden asshole to stink up a table. Not all GMs are ready to belt that ass tout de suite, nipping it in the bud, as it were. :p

As for your example: too much time and effort vs. the spell. Further -- and I have seen this too -- a rogue's climb cannot lift the desired object 25' straight up and off center of the caster in the plain air, playing the "Keep Away!" game. :mad: And given the known rules of vertical leap, this is not something to be solved handwavium. It is passive-aggressive PvP leading to aggressive PvP... and it costs the caster *nothing* of their effectiveness. Because unlimited, y'know? ;)

No, it's disruptive enough IME that for my games its unlimited-ness is automatically removed. Others may find excuses for it, but I've seen enough to confirm my suspicions: it's bad design for what I want to play. :)
« Last Edit: September 22, 2019, 05:04:02 AM by Opaopajr »
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You know, people keep comparing non-TSR D&D to deck-building in Magic: the Gathering. But maybe it's more like Katamari Damacy. You keep sticking shit on your characters until they are big enough to be a star.
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S'mon

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Why does 5e suck at the Exploration pillar?
« Reply #108 on: September 22, 2019, 06:39:05 AM »
Quote from: Doom;1105341
Heck if I know, he doesn't even play at my table any more.


Yeah.

I'm shocked, shocked that any player wouldn't love your response to his comment. :D

S'mon

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Why does 5e suck at the Exploration pillar?
« Reply #109 on: September 22, 2019, 06:43:38 AM »
Quote from: Bren;1105373

It's not even close to moderately important


Well I think there's a moderately important point about good GMing technique here, and what not to do when a player says "Hey, what about ...?"

Hint: 99% of the time, the correct response is to nod sagely.

S'mon

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Why does 5e suck at the Exploration pillar?
« Reply #110 on: September 22, 2019, 06:47:14 AM »
Quote from: Opaopajr;1105411
a rogue's climb cannot lift the desired object 25' straight up and off center of the caster in the plain air, playing the "Keep Away!" game. :mad:

No, but anyone can throw an unattended object into a river or off a cliff top. Or into a sewer - rather worse than a tree!

TJS

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Why does 5e suck at the Exploration pillar?
« Reply #111 on: September 22, 2019, 07:15:41 AM »
I have to agree.  Historically I've mostly seen this type of behaviour from the players of rogues/thieves.

Doom

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Why does 5e suck at the Exploration pillar?
« Reply #112 on: September 22, 2019, 11:22:26 AM »
Quote from: S'mon;1105425
Yeah.

I'm shocked, shocked that any player wouldn't love your response to his comment. :D


Huh? Unrelated...stuff happens over the course of 5ish years; I've had other players for over 10 years now. Clearly from here, some people lose their shit at the idea of a simple counter-magic solution to a minor magic issue, but nobody had a problem with it, or cared.

This ultimately is the issue with the "5e doesn't do exploration" supposed "problem": if you're willing to put a few seconds into quick solutions, willing to turn off a few "I win" buttons, 5e can support that style of play. But, some folks would rather just toss wide swaths of the rulebook or complain how things can't be fixed because reasons.
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A nice education blog.

rawma

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Why does 5e suck at the Exploration pillar?
« Reply #113 on: September 22, 2019, 12:52:46 PM »
Quote from: Opaopajr;1105411
In the example used the GM did invoke the AL charter. There is leeway for players to "play their PCs" until it is disruptive and the GM invoked the letter-of-the-law before having a chat afterwards (avoiding the "But it's what my PC would do!" whinge mid-game).  That does not stop passive-aggressive hell from happening. And it shows up even worse in home games without a strong GM laying down the law. And given I was helping cultivate a new batch of GMs with 5e's rise... I got to see a lot of growing pains shit. :mad:

Rules cannot save from asshole. ;) But rules can embolden asshole to stink up a table. Not all GMs are ready to belt that ass tout de suite, nipping it in the bud, as it were. :p

As for your example: too much time and effort vs. the spell. Further -- and I have seen this too -- a rogue's climb cannot lift the desired object 25' straight up and off center of the caster in the plain air, playing the "Keep Away!" game. :mad: And given the known rules of vertical leap, this is not something to be solved handwavium. It is passive-aggressive PvP leading to aggressive PvP... and it costs the caster *nothing* of their effectiveness. Because unlimited, y'know? ;)

No, it's disruptive enough IME that for my games its unlimited-ness is automatically removed. Others may find excuses for it, but I've seen enough to confirm my suspicions: it's bad design for what I want to play. :)


On the one hand, you assert that "rules cannot save from asshole" but on the other you ... want to change the rules from unlimited cantrips because that will ... "save from asshole"? The rule that you don't play a character who won't cooperate with the party saves the group from a wide range of bad behavior; the rule that gives effect to all the other rules is that disruptive players are booted after an appropriate number of warnings. Are you endorsing Doom's solution? Then the fighter could just spray his stuff with Mage-Hand-Be-Gone(TM).

The argument that no character will do this without magic because it would be slow and inconvenient? It's just as easy to describe the rogue player doing something as annoying (and odds are the rogue can outrun the fighter indefinitely, thanks to cunning action).

The AL rules are fairly broad; if both players and the DM agree, you can have PvP and the DM is empowered to keep it fun for everyone. If the DM was annoyed (enough to invoke the AL rules) and the other player was annoyed and wanted his character to punch the mage character, then as DM I could observe that two out of three agreed to such PvP and that doing it again would mean the mage's player agreeing to PvP. I could also assign a level of exhaustion to the mage, on the basis that he doesn't actually seem to be resting. That player is of course welcome to complain to the organizer about my DMing. But I've played or DM'd in AL from season 1 and never needed to do more than remind players that it's a cooperative game, and usually all the other players at the table will already do that.

Opaopajr

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Why does 5e suck at the Exploration pillar?
« Reply #114 on: September 22, 2019, 09:42:20 PM »
Very simple, rawma, it is the LordVreeg Theorem: the gamestyle and the rules will eventually converge through play. ;) Ergo system matters.

So a system liberty becomes an enabler to people problems when it diverges from my desired playstyle. In time, regardless of best intentions, conflicting rules will pull on the setting frrom my desired playstyle. And since I am more interested in my setting and playstyle than the system, that puts system at 3rd priority for preservation -- or in other words, system is first in line for change to do what I want. :)

I played 5e RAW so as to test the system as is so I can judge my assessment. I got my answers and found that it needs my adjustment (somewhat heavily) to use as I desire. The system has many good components, but there are several components which pull very hard into other playstyle conceits that I have zero interest in. My table playstyle and setting has priority, so the system will be shaped to serve me. :cool:

edit: and AL is still Org Play, a pile of gaming-as-last-resort. :mad: Been there, done that, heard the drama as the seasons changed, won't bother anymore. It's just another metagame for passive-aggressive hell. Better to rewrite a game that has undesriable parts than play it as is, let alone add another gameable layer as a "failsafe." And that includes social interactions, too. Direct confrontation is best in isolating the problem vector. :)
« Last Edit: September 22, 2019, 09:47:23 PM by Opaopajr »
Just make your fuckin' guy and roll the dice, you pricks. Focus on what's interesting, not what gives you the biggest randomly generated virtual penis.  -- J Arcane
 
You know, people keep comparing non-TSR D&D to deck-building in Magic: the Gathering. But maybe it's more like Katamari Damacy. You keep sticking shit on your characters until they are big enough to be a star.
-- talysman

mAcular Chaotic

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Why does 5e suck at the Exploration pillar?
« Reply #115 on: September 22, 2019, 09:51:39 PM »
Quote from: Opaopajr;1105411
The only real limit is time. Yes, you may mash the button. Yes, you can do this on cantrips that have casting times anywhere from one round (6 seconds)  to Ten Minutes.

Yes, you have unlimited Mending (10 min. cast time) to prevent time from wearing or destroying knowledge conveyances, such as the written word. ;) Yes. The full ramifications of everlasting intel never fading from travel... is unexplored and considered a waste of a 'pew pew' cantrip slot. :rolleyes: Yes, unlimited Message, too. Yes, unlimited Move Earth (you can play "Dig Dug" now). Yes.

Exhaustion exists but is mostly unused (not explicitly RAW, not explicitly optional, just... there, rarely triggered in adventures and product), and sleep requirements sorta exist (except for Features that give rise to things like the Coffeelock), but otherwise: Yes, unlimited. :cool: One can now play Gauntlet with the wizard, just the like valkyrie! :rolleyes:



In the example used the GM did invoke the AL charter. There is leeway for players to "play their PCs" until it is disruptive and the GM invoked the letter-of-the-law before having a chat afterwards (avoiding the "But it's what my PC would do!" whinge mid-game).  That does not stop passive-aggressive hell from happening. And it shows up even worse in home games without a strong GM laying down the law. And given I was helping cultivate a new batch of GMs with 5e's rise... I got to see a lot of growing pains shit. :mad:

Rules cannot save from asshole. ;) But rules can embolden asshole to stink up a table. Not all GMs are ready to belt that ass tout de suite, nipping it in the bud, as it were. :p

As for your example: too much time and effort vs. the spell. Further -- and I have seen this too -- a rogue's climb cannot lift the desired object 25' straight up and off center of the caster in the plain air, playing the "Keep Away!" game. :mad: And given the known rules of vertical leap, this is not something to be solved handwavium. It is passive-aggressive PvP leading to aggressive PvP... and it costs the caster *nothing* of their effectiveness. Because unlimited, y'know? ;)

No, it's disruptive enough IME that for my games its unlimited-ness is automatically removed. Others may find excuses for it, but I've seen enough to confirm my suspicions: it's bad design for what I want to play. :)

Honestly that sounds like nothing to do with the rules and everything to do with the usual assholes that ruin RP for everyone by using it as their playground. The DM has to smack them.

When problematic rule usage occurs and it's not ill intentioned though that's when you lay down the house rules or start pressuring with consequences. I apply exhaustion quite liberally for example and it stops a lot of the weird gamey behaviors you normally see.
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Opaopajr

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Why does 5e suck at the Exploration pillar?
« Reply #116 on: September 22, 2019, 09:55:08 PM »
Quote from: S'mon;1105427
No, but anyone can throw an unattended object into a river or off a cliff top. Or into a sewer - rather worse than a tree!

Those acts need those locations for context. I can control context. Most outside locations (and many indoor ones) have overhead clearance of 25'. ;) I would have to contextually cram everyone eternally indoors with under 10' clearance to avoid this Mage Hand "straight up in the air" bullshit. And that is one of many petty tricks.

No, they are not the same. :) It is the Rogue/thief disruptor with extra limitless widgets. I know you mean well, but it enables more problems in a playstyle I already want to tone down.
Just make your fuckin' guy and roll the dice, you pricks. Focus on what's interesting, not what gives you the biggest randomly generated virtual penis.  -- J Arcane
 
You know, people keep comparing non-TSR D&D to deck-building in Magic: the Gathering. But maybe it's more like Katamari Damacy. You keep sticking shit on your characters until they are big enough to be a star.
-- talysman

rawma

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Why does 5e suck at the Exploration pillar?
« Reply #117 on: September 22, 2019, 11:46:08 PM »
Quote from: Opaopajr;1105515
Very simple, rawma, it is the LordVreeg Theorem: the gamestyle and the rules will eventually converge through play. ;) Ergo system matters.

So a system liberty becomes an enabler to people problems when it diverges from my desired playstyle. In time, regardless of best intentions, conflicting rules will pull on the setting frrom my desired playstyle. And since I am more interested in my setting and playstyle than the system, that puts system at 3rd priority for preservation -- or in other words, system is first in line for change to do what I want. :)


You're doing a trick bankshot to get the game you want through changing rules to change how people act. You might as well put in rules about how people should act, which AL actually did.

Quote
edit: and AL is still Org Play, a pile of gaming-as-last-resort. :mad: Been there, done that, heard the drama as the seasons changed, won't bother anymore. It's just another metagame for passive-aggressive hell. Better to rewrite a game that has undesriable parts than play it as is, let alone add another gameable layer as a "failsafe." And that includes social interactions, too. Direct confrontation is best in isolating the problem vector. :)


I find more interesting challenges with the players in AL than I would with a single small group, no matter how skilled. I cannot fathom where everyone who complains finds all these dysfunctional AL organizers, DMs and players.

But significantly your direct confrontation is apparently with the rules, not with the people who are your actual problem.