"Your Toughest Opponent shouldn't be the Rulebook."

Pissing upon the AD&D 1E Rulebooks, I presume?

So; in reference to this vintage ad, do you believe the 1E Rulebooks were a stumbling block to the average player of 1st Edition?

(I inherited some old comic books from the 1980s and 1990s.  There are numerous ads for D&D.  They're in every single issue.)

Quote from: Razor 007;1146957So; in reference to this vintage ad, do you believe the 1E PHB was a stumbling block to the average player of 1st Edition?

No, but it didn't really hold a lot of rules, most of the mechanics like combat rules are in the 1e DMG. The player was expected to trust the DM, the 'Master of the Game'.

Quote from: S'mon;1146963No, but it didn't really hold a lot of rules, most of the mechanics like combat rules are in the 1e DMG. The player was expected to trust the DM, the 'Master of the Game'.

  The precise phrasing was "Your Toughest Opponent Shouldn't Be the Rulebook" (emphasis added), and I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone defend the 1E DMG's organization and indexing.

For completeness, here's a copy of the ad, taken from the back cover of DRAGON Magazine #143:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]4800[/ATTACH]

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1146974For completeness, here's a copy of the ad, taken from the back cover of DRAGON Magazine #143:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]4800[/ATTACH]

Perhaps you are 100% correct.  I had thumbed through dozens of issues, and read many advertisements for AD&D, Dungeon, D&D, etc.  I know the ad featured a picture of the AD&D 2E PHB, as you have shown.  I have modified the opening post, assuming that you are correct.

I'm culling out the few issues which are badly tattered and torn, and then I'll see what I have left.  Evidently, the original owner's favorite super hero was Captain America.

Quote from: Razor 007;1146957"Your Toughest Opponent shouldn't be the Player's Handbook."

Pissing upon the AD&D 1E Player's Handbook, I'm sure.

So; in reference to this vintage ad, do you believe the 1E PHB was a stumbling block to the average player of 1st Edition?

(I inherited some old comic books from the 1980s and 1990s.  There are numerous ads for D&D.  They're in pretty much every single issue.)

In practice, no. It's true learning AD&D from scratch with just the books would have been hard, but most peopled learned from other people, the books were just reference. And for those without the hands on experience, there were the Moldvay then Mentzer Basic Sets, which did a good job for newbies who wanted to learn straight from the book, and then "graduated" to AD&D and brought their knowledge with them.

Incidentally, the "Advanced" was brilliant marketing -- the surge of new players in the 1980s were mostly kids, and that word was irresistible. It's a sign of the graying of the hobby that the OSR prefers the Basic (or Original) version to AD&D, most of the time.

Yes its taking pot shots at AD&D and Gary.

Yes its more or less incorrect as AD&D is actually pretty straightforward. Especially the PHB. The DMG, while a bit ominous looking, once you get into the actual rules you realize the bulk of the DMG is just batches of situational rules in case X comes up. And the rest is lots of tables to roll on as needed. According to staff way back they told me that most players and DMs never grock that the PHB and DMG are actually organized in a similar pattern.

But other companies liked to harp on how D&D was "too complex" and then would turn around and present systems either suspiciously similar. Or actually MORE convoluted.

Coming from OD&D, and already having our way to do things (Which was different for everyone  in the group- we all ran different types of games/settings and individual rulings/rules) , AD&D  was overkill- In some ways it was easier to find things, but we felt 90% of the PHB and DMG was overkill. We enjoyed reading them, but essentially just used the increase in HD for PCs, the spells, monsters, items, and modules as they started to turn up. When Moldvay/Cook/Marsh arrived, I adopted that utilizing previous bits from OD&D, and very little from AD&D. Then 82ish we moved on from D&D period.

As big of a fanboy as I am of them for the prose, I think Gary's AD&D books are a chaotic mess to use. If I were to run AD&D these days I would grab 2E without  batting an eyelash- in particular the revised 1995 versions. As rules/reference books I think Zeb did a fine job at what he was tasked to do, albeit with much less of a voice than Gary.

Quote from: JeffB;1147082s big of a fanboy as I am of them for the prose, I think Gary's AD&D books are a chaotic mess to use. If I were to run AD&D these days I would grab 2E without  batting an eyelash- in particular the revised 1995 versions. As rules/reference books I think Zeb did a fine job at what he was tasked to do, albeit with much less of a voice than Gary.

For clarity I have OSRIC - but I still refer to the 1e DMG probably more than any other RPG book. Possible current exception for 5e PHB, but I know which one I'll be looking at more in 2040!

Quote from: S'mon;1147095For clarity I have OSRIC - but I still refer to the 1e DMG probably more than any other RPG book. Possible current exception for 5e PHB, but I know which one I'll be looking at more in 2040!

If I had to run games for the rest of my life with one and only one book, dice, and the rest off the top of my head, that one book would be the 1e DMG.

Quote from: S'mon;1147095For clarity I have OSRIC - but I still refer to the 1e DMG probably more than any other RPG book. Possible current exception for 5e PHB, but I know which one I'll be looking at more in 2040!

I absolutely did and still use it for inspiration purposes. The non rules bits/Gary's worldbuilding advice, etc. But at the table, it was pretty much used only to find the actual rules to a spell (because, you know, 1E PHB), or a magic item. As said, we just went back to what we had been doing in OD&D  because  much of it was overly complex new/alternate systems we had no desire to utilize/learn or systems that just did not fit our style of play- i.e. hitting name level and building towers, construction costs, etc.  

We got far more use out of the MM wghen it was released and the Homes book- both essentially OD&D books. Looking back I think we just never gave AD&D a shot as written because it was not really an improvement, and we did not gel with the more complex systems and rigid structure Gary was intending for tournament play (and for business purposes). As a rules system it was an even bigger mess than OD&D. We had "fixed" OD&D to play how we wanted already and filled in the gaps and made changes. Eventually we moved onto Runequest around 1982 abandoning D&D altogether.

And I guess, this is why I would prefer  2E (CORE ) as a rules system- It was more loosey goosey, with most of the complexity made optional.

Last I heard, Colville thought he was going to die of Wuhan virus.  I guess he changed his mind.

Quote from: Razor 007;1146957...
So; in reference to this vintage ad, do you believe the 1E Rulebooks were a stumbling block to the average player of 1st Edition?
...

Yes.

AD&D1e rules are a mess for someone's frist rpg.

IMHO B/X made D&D.

With out the Holmes, Molvay, and Mentzer box sets, AD&D1e is virtually indecipherable.

There's a reason why B/X rules with some 3e innovations are the basis for most of the OSR.

Quote from: Pat;1146998Incidentally, the "Advanced" was brilliant marketing -- the surge of new players in the 1980s were mostly kids, and that word was irresistible. It's a sign of the graying of the hobby that the OSR prefers the Basic (or Original) version to AD&D, most of the time.

"Advanced AD&D" Was perhaps the most brilliant marketing move in the history of the hobby.

Quote from: JeffB;1147082...

As big of a fanboy as I am of them for the prose, I think Gary's AD&D books are a chaotic mess to use. ...

But this is why AD&D was so influential. It was a hot mess. Borderline unusable without prior knowledge of B/X.

But it was filled with enthusiasm, Nifty ideas to riff of of for your campaign, An all kinds of tidbits that fired the imagination.

And in an era where a lot of gaming groups campaigns were were house-ruled with home made content; Who cares if the rules sucked?

In retrospect, I don't think Gygax intended AD&D to be anything but exactly that: Advanced D&D. If you read the preface or the PHB, it's fairly clear he assumes you've already been playing for a while.

I don't think it was a problem at all.  I read and learned it without help when I was in 5th grade.  If a 5th grader can learn it, it shouldn't be a problem for any adult.