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Author Topic: Old school questions  (Read 7234 times)

mAcular Chaotic

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Old school questions
« on: August 15, 2020, 02:42:11 PM »
I run D&D 5e games but I've been looking at Basic and Old School Essentials and other such games because I'm going to be running a 5e game that's hacked to run like an old school gold-for-xp game. So I've been looking at some old rules.

Some of them don't make sense to me though, so I was hoping you guys could give me context or explain how they're supposed to work.

1) For instance, I see you can't level up more than once per session for the amount of gold you bring in. So if you bring in enough gold that could level you up 3 times, you only level up once and the rest is wasted. I don't understand why this limit is in place. If the players take all the risk to get a big reward, shouldn't they be able to benefit from it? What is this here for?

2) If you do "XP for gold spending", how do you stop the game from just becoming a farming simulator where you pay OTHER people to get gold for you? Or by being a businessman? My first thought is that only gold YOU get from the dungeon personally counts... but then you have to start tracking different piles of gold which sounds like it would be hard to keep straight.

3) There's the 10 minute dungeon turn. If you're trying to sneak around and be stealthy, how far are you supposed to be able to move? (In other words, if you're trying to stealth behind enemy lines.)

I have more but I'll add them as the thread goes.
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Steven Mitchell

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« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2020, 03:01:44 PM »
1. I don't know what prompted that rule in the first place, but the only time it came up for us was when the party made a giant haul, got ambushed trying to get out, and thus only half or less of the party made it out alive.  By rule, XP made was split among the survivors.  In one memorable case, the party got extremely lucky to barely beat a young dragon, got lucky on the haul they got, but then one of the party members took advantage of their weakened state to take the rest of the party out.  He went from barely 5th to 1 XP shy of 7th with that trick, and would have been pushing 9th level without the rule.  (He also became an NPC villain that the next party went after, but I digress. :)  )

2. A good way to think about it is that only one character gets XP for any given bit of gold.  If someone else got it out of the dungeon for you, that someone else gets the XP.

3. The movement rates are very slow in the dungeon in 10 minute turns, assuming (if memory serves), something like 90 to 120 feet per turn for most unencumbered characters.  However, that's also taking into account mapping, caution, the poor lighting, etc.  Moving at that speed is what lets, for example, the elf notice secret doors for free.  When you are running away from something, you get no mapping and the GM can even see that you get lost.  I used to physically take the party's map away from them while running and only hand it back when they stopped.

Zalman

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Old school questions
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2020, 03:52:55 PM »
Regarding question #1, I've always been under the impression that the purpose was to ensure that the player experienced each and every level of play, as part of their journey. In those days, levels were more difficult to attain, so as Steven says, it rarely came up. The only time I've seen it happen is in adventuring parties of widely varying levels (another old-schoolism) where a low-level character managed to survive a high level adventure.
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mAcular Chaotic

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« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2020, 04:15:58 PM »
Quote from: Zalman;1145019
Regarding question #1, I've always been under the impression that the purpose was to ensure that the player experienced each and every level of play, as part of their journey. In those days, levels were more difficult to attain, so as Steven says, it rarely came up. The only time I've seen it happen is in adventuring parties of widely varying levels (another old-schoolism) where a low-level character managed to survive a high level adventure.

Yeah I was thinking of how like, in online games you might have your higher level friends "rush" you through an area to level up faster. In that way, the party could give most of the gold to a level 1 character to level them up faster... if there wasn't a limit.
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jeff37923

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« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2020, 04:17:44 PM »
Something to also consider was that Old School games had not been around long when they were out, so the long level up times also helped new players to learn the game. Now there is a huge decades long body of lore about RPGs that players can refer to, but back then actually playing the game was the only way to learn the game.
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mAcular Chaotic

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« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2020, 04:34:33 PM »
Oh I noticed this happens with spending limits too. Like you can carouse, but only to a maximum of 1000 XP. But what if you have 5000 gold? Etc. Is there a purpose to that? Maybe if different activities have different limits...
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KingofElfland

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« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2020, 06:07:07 PM »
Regarding #3: The 10 minutes (as noted above) accounts for exploration. It also cuts down on rolls: one per turn. I run BX a lot and it is one of the little things that make dungeon exploration in that system better--it can be drudgery in 5e. Of course, there is no reason you can't run 5e like BX, but I find I have to fight less against player expectation when I use BX. Of course, I am biased.

hedgehobbit

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« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2020, 06:24:38 PM »
#1) The reason that the level limit was in place initially was that in the very early day there wasn't the assumption that every player would show up to every session. So when newer players showed up, their characters were often much lower level the other players. What the players tried to do was to award the lower level characters a much higher share of the treasure so they'd catch up faster. Gygax squashed this by putting in a one level per session limit. Feel free to ignore it.

#2) The "get XP by spending gold" rule is primarily used to keep the players from accumulating too much cash. However, if you just award characters XP based on the full price of the magic items they find, as the rules for OD&D state, you won't need to award as much cash and the problem will never arise in the first place.

#3) The slow movement per 10 minute turn already assumes the party is sneaking around. They will move faster if not sneaking.

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« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2020, 08:02:23 PM »
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic
1) For instance, I see you can't level up more than once per session for the amount of gold you bring in. So if you bring in enough gold that could level you up 3 times, you only level up once and the rest is wasted. I don't understand why this limit is in place. If the players take all the risk to get a big reward, shouldn't they be able to benefit from it? What is this here for?


It isn't wasted, the extra gold becomes an asset and all due x.p. are recorded and retained. No more x.p. are accumulated until the character gains the appropriate level. Some DMs only award enough x.p. to gain the next level. Or continue to accumulate x.p. but limit advancement to one level per adventure. Use whichever method makes more sense.

X.p. are just a useful guideline for the DM to use to determine when the PC is eligible for the next level. Also, 1 g.p. does not always equal 1 x.p., as this must be adjusted by the DM. Realistically, if a 1st level fighter acquires 10,000 g.p., it is likely that much less than 10,000 x.p. will be recorded -- for example, if most of the party members are of a much higher level, then the risk to the 1st level fighter is much less; it makes sense in this situation to simply reward the fighter 2,000 x.p. and grant him second level (after training, or whatever method the DM uses).

Quote
"Experience points are merely an indicator of the character's progress towards greater proficiency in his or her chosen profession. UPWARD PROGRESS IS NEVER AUTOMATIC. Just because Nell Nimblefingers, Rogue of the Thieves' guild has managed to acquire 1,251 experience points does NOT mean that she suddenly becomes Nell Nimblefingers the Footpad. The gaining of sufficient experience points is necessary to indicate that a character is eligible to gain a level of experience, but the actual award is a matter for you, the DM, to decide."

-- DMG 1e, p. 86


If you get an A+ in high school algebra, that does not mean you are ready for differential geometry and can skip 8 years of school. It means you are ready for high school geometry.


Quote from: mAcular Chaotic
2) If you do "XP for gold spending", how do you stop the game from just becoming a farming simulator where you pay OTHER people to get gold for you? Or by being a businessman? My first thought is that only gold YOU get from the dungeon personally counts... but then you have to start tracking different piles of gold which sounds like it would be hard to keep straight.


In the accrual method of accounting in the real world, that is exactly what must be done -- expenses must be matched with revenues, and deferrals and accruals must be identified and recorded appropriately. This is a necessary skill and should not be considered as onerous.

Quote
"If the relative value of the monster(s) or guardian device fought equals or exceeds that of the party which took the treasure, experience is awarded on a 1 for 1 basis. If the guardian(s) was relatively weaker, award experience on a 5 g.p. to 4 x.P., 3 to 2,2 to 1,3 to 1, or even 4 or more to 1 basis according to the relative strengths. For example, if a 10th level magic-user takes 1,OOO g.p. from 10 kobolds, the relative strengths are about 20 to 1 in favor of the magic-user. (Such strength comparisons are subjective and must be based upon the degree of challenge the Dungeon Master had the monster(s) pose the treasure taker.)

Treasure must be physically taken out of the dungeon or lair and turned into a transportable medium or stored in the player's stronghold to be counted for experience points."

-- DMG, 1e, p. 85


Emphasis added. The PCs are adventurers, so they only get x.p. for actual adventuring. Note that the logistics of transporting treasure might very well limit how much x.p. can actually be gained per adventure.


Quote from: mAcular Chaotic
3) There's the 10 minute dungeon turn. If you're trying to sneak around and be stealthy, how far are you supposed to be able to move? (In other words, if you're trying to stealth behind enemy lines.)

In tactical situations, switch to rounds, which are 60 seconds. A 12" movement rate is 120' per round, or 12' per segment (6 seconds).

EOTB

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« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2020, 09:36:09 PM »
1) you can keep basically all the experience necessary to go up another level after the level just gained.  

1A) if you think about it, it's not really good for the DM, or the players, to tempt the players to spend 110% of their gold on training for leveling with no money left over for "other stuff".  A campaign needs cash flow to be as rich and vibrant as possible.  

1B) This is really only happens between levels 1-3, maybe 4 if a good haul.  

3) Default movement is mapping movement.  If someone's just walking around they can go faster than this.  But then they're not getting a decent map, just approximate descriptions - they're not taking time to pace off room dimensions and such.
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Kyle Aaron

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« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2020, 11:20:02 PM »
I will refer to AD&D1e because some of the later games have tried to copy ideas from it, but the writers don't necessarily get how things go.

(1) in AD&D1e, having sufficient XP qualifies you for the next level, but until you are the next level you cannot receive any more XP. You can think of it less as total XP, and more as "I have earned this many XP at my current level." It's like how it doesn't matter how well you performed in Calculus 101, you still have to do Calculus 201 before they'll let you do 300-level maths. Likewise, you can't skip from 1st to 3rd level without spending some time adventuring at 2nd. That's why AD&D1e has training to level up.

The DM rates the players' roleplaying (did the fighter fight, did the thief grab extra opportunities for loot, did people follow their alignments, etc) 1-4. The cost of levelling up is 1,500gp x the current level x rating, and takes as many weeks. For example, a fighter fought boldly in the front line and is rated 1 by the DM. The are currently 2nd level, and the various monsters and treasure found accumulate to enough to more than pass into 3rd level. They will take (current level) 2 x (rating) 1 x 1 weeks = 2 weeks for them to level up, and cost 3,000gp.

If this same fighter had lurked around at the back, not coming forward even when the magic-user was stuck in melee, and waiting until the monster had 1 hit point left before striking, then they would be a poor fighter. Because they've not acted like a fighter they have more to learn than the other guy did. So the DM rates them as 3 in performance. Now it takes them 6 weeks to level up, and costs 9,000gp. It may be that the character has the XP to level up, but not the gold. Time to keep adventuring! Or it may be that the rest of the party who played well finished their training a month ago and have gone and had another adventure sufficient to qualify them for 3rd level - while you're still training.

In either case, now being 2nd level, they are now in a position to learn the things required to get them to 3rd level.

(2) in AD&D1e there are some rules of gp for XP being modified by relative level - a 1st level magic-user dealing with 10 kobolds is one thing, a 10th level magic-user dealing with 10 kobolds is another. Which is to say, you learn from struggle, less struggle, less learning. Thus, paying other people to go adventuring for you, or buying and selling things as a businessperson, will get you ZERO XP. You'll still have the gold, but no XP from it.

(3) in AD&D1e there'll be movement rates for various characters based on their size (a man walks further than a hobbit) and encumbrance (someone in leather moves faster than someone in plate). For my part, I rarely keep track of it except to say that if they faff about too long then I'll do a wandering monster check.
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Spinachcat

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« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2020, 01:07:36 AM »
XP for gold was built to encourage stealth / exploration / planning instead of just grinding fights. The idea was PCs weren't big damn heroes, they were tomb raiders.

XP for gold was also based on risk. If your PC invested in a business and earned gold there, that didn't count toward XP, but it was a great method to increase one's gold. Back in the day, we allowed 1 XP / 10 gold earned this way to explain how NPCs earned levels over many years without going into dungeons.

Also, back in AD&D, PCs had to pay for training to level up and their PC would be off training often for weeks, even months. Thus, the concept of players having multiple PCs. Part of the concept that you can't gain more XP than you raising you one level is based on the idea you need to train to learn your new level's mad skillz.

The round / turn time abstraction exists to create tension. Time is ticking. The longer you're in the dungeon, the more likely a wandering monster will arrive. Keep in mind that in old school, monster encounters are NOT balanced so you could run into a really bad problem if you dilly dally too long.

I don't know if 5e can do old school because of so many of the assumptions baked into 5e that are contrary to TSR editions. They really are different games, not just editions.

One of the reasons I've had success with my OD&D games is because they're such a different beast than modern RPGs. The creativity at the table has been a real joy.

mAcular Chaotic

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« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2020, 02:25:15 AM »
Quote from: Spinachcat;1145051
I don't know if 5e can do old school because of so many of the assumptions baked into 5e that are contrary to TSR editions. They really are different games, not just editions.

It is pretty easy actually, at least for me -- most of the difference is on the DM side. The players can have their class features and subclasses and whatnot. What makes it have an old school feeling is the various rules about how to play: the "dungeon turns", the "gold for XP" for advancement, the fact the game isn't scaled to the PCs, etc. I've already informally incorporated the dungeon turns into my 5e games because it gives some actual structure to exploration based play. Without it, it's a lot more unclear what's supposed to happen and things break down with tracking of time relative to actions being harder to make sense of. (ie, all the players keep trying to inspect the same thing because there's no real cost to do so).

The replies bring me to a new question:

4) Training to level up takes weeks. I like the idea of training, but doesn't this mean the PC is basically out of play for god knows how long? Many of my campaigns will take months IRL to finish a single game day because the game is so packed with action. How does pacing of sessions relating to the in-game calendar go? Does every session take place after a week has passed or something?

5) Is "XP for gold brought home" considered better or "XP for spending gold"?

Also, as a followup to the training question: if I'm to understand the replies correctly, if you get more XP than your normal limit, you don't level up from it, but you still have the extra XP on hand to gain later when you've completed training?

So if I'm a level 1 Fighter, and it takes 300 XP for me to get to level 2, and 900 XP to be level 3... and I get 1,000 gold... I get enough experience to get right up to leveling twice -- so my XP stops at 899, right? What happens to the remaining 101 XP. Is that just gone forever, or does that get "banked" for after I get to level 2 and I can use it then?
« Last Edit: August 16, 2020, 02:28:11 AM by mAcular Chaotic »
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Kyle Aaron

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« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2020, 03:33:16 AM »
Answers are again for AD&D1e.

(4) Yes, they are out of play for that time. And yes, the rest of the party may go adventuring without them. And yes, that means they may end up different levels. One of the assumptions of this kind of play is: you can't have everything, you have to make choices.

The pacing of stuff in-game goes however the DM and players want it to. In practice lower level parties will only be able to go through a few dungeon rooms before running out of hit points, spells, potions, torches and iron spikes, and will have to withdraw to rest for the day to rest and resupply.

(5) rules-as-written, you get XP for whatever treasure you bring out of the dungeon and into a place of safety. Whether you spend it is up to you.

Followup: you never get more XP than your level limit. Any excess is simply lost.

No, you can't do this in 5e. It's a different game. It has the same name, but it's a different game. In play, RuneQuest 1e is closer to AD&D1e than D&D5e is.

If you want to play AD&D1e, play AD&D1e. If you want to play D&D5e, play D&D5e. But they are different games.
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« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2020, 04:49:54 AM »
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1145058


4) Training to level up takes weeks. I like the idea of training, but doesn't this mean the PC is basically out of play for god knows how long? Many of my campaigns will take months IRL to finish a single game day because the game is so packed with action. How does pacing of sessions relating to the in-game calendar go? Does every session take place after a week has passed or something?


It's very common for players to just take a break from adventuring while people train.  But as Kyle noted, it's not unknown to just rotate out that character and take a backup out for that time instead.  Get your backup character bumped up a bit if your main character dies.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1145058

Also, as a followup to the training question: if I'm to understand the replies correctly, if you get more XP than your normal limit, you don't level up from it, but you still have the extra XP on hand to gain later when you've completed training?

So if I'm a level 1 Fighter, and it takes 300 XP for me to get to level 2, and 900 XP to be level 3... and I get 1,000 gold... I get enough experience to get right up to leveling twice -- so my XP stops at 899, right? What happens to the remaining 101 XP. Is that just gone forever, or does that get "banked" for after I get to level 2 and I can use it then?


It's "gone forever".  But who gives a shit?  If someone came back with enough treasure to go up a level and most of another, but what stuck in their mind was 100 XP they "lost" - I'm already losing my enthusiasm for DMing that player.  They're probably going to be really butthurt when the giant spider surprises them, gets 4 free attacks, and kills them via poison before they get a chance to roll.
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