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Author Topic: Old school questions  (Read 7235 times)

Ghostmaker

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« Reply #60 on: August 24, 2020, 10:54:20 AM »
One of the major flaws in the old system, IMO, was there really wasn't any mechanism for determining if a spell was 'commonly known' or not.

It's one thing to be able to walk into a magicians' guildhall or library and pay a fee to copy Rary's mneumonic enhancer into your spell book, but quite another to have to track down banish type XIII demon in a book of bad poetry in a festhall in Waterdeep.

mAcular Chaotic

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« Reply #61 on: August 24, 2020, 11:18:14 AM »
Quote from: Zalman;1146237
Yes, that's part of the point. The other part would be to invent new spells.


I seem to recall some old text warning against players researching existing spells... but it may have been my imagination.
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« Reply #62 on: August 24, 2020, 12:12:34 PM »
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1146246
I seem to recall some old text warning against players researching existing spells... but it may have been my imagination.

Well, you don't want your magic-user researching a 'new' spell which just duplicates an existing one (especially if it's unbalancing).

Magic-users circa 1E/2E have to be managed a bit. You don't want to cripple them by excessively limiting their ability to add spells to their books, but at the same time it's nice to get some (dare I say it?) diversity in spellcasting and spells known :)

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« Reply #63 on: August 24, 2020, 12:12:50 PM »
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1145012
I run D&D 5e games but I've been looking at Basic and Old School Essentials and other such games because I'm going to be running a 5e game that's hacked to run like an old school gold-for-xp game. So I've been looking at some old rules.

Some of them don't make sense to me though, so I was hoping you guys could give me context or explain how they're supposed to work.

1) For instance, I see you can't level up more than once per session for the amount of gold you bring in. So if you bring in enough gold that could level you up 3 times, you only level up once and the rest is wasted. I don't understand why this limit is in place. If the players take all the risk to get a big reward, shouldn't they be able to benefit from it? What is this here for?

2) If you do "XP for gold spending", how do you stop the game from just becoming a farming simulator where you pay OTHER people to get gold for you? Or by being a businessman? My first thought is that only gold YOU get from the dungeon personally counts... but then you have to start tracking different piles of gold which sounds like it would be hard to keep straight.

3) There's the 10 minute dungeon turn. If you're trying to sneak around and be stealthy, how far are you supposed to be able to move? (In other words, if you're trying to stealth behind enemy lines.)

I have more but I'll add them as the thread goes.

1) I always ignored this. Let's say you have a group of six third level players, and three of them died while slaying a Dragon. You have three third level characters, the Dragon was 11HD and had a treasure hoard with 47,500 gp. Experience points earned for slaying the Dragon was 1100+800 or 1,900 which is split three ways. Each player receives 633 exp, which is not enough for them to even level. Now they have the treasure. First thing is, they have to get the treasure safely back to their stronghold and secure it. Outside of the cavern, they have a wagon, and can transport the entire haul back to their home in the city where the secure it in a locked room in their basement, and place traps on it to protect it. Now they start spending money, divided three ways they each have 15,833 Gp. The fighter decides he wants to recruit hirelings and wants to hire a company of 50 men-at-arms. Base pay is 3 Gp per month and it costs him 2 Gp a month for upkeep (Food). So spending that money earns him 250 exp... each month. He also has to house the troops and must spend 10,000 Gp to have a barracks constructed, As part of the contract with the masons and carpenters Guildmaster, the Fighter agrees pay half up front, and will pay the remainder after the barracks has been constructed, and is available to move in. So that's 5,000. Two weeks back from the expedition, and the fighter gets 5,250 additional experience points for spending 5,250 Gp to house his new mercenary company. Let's say he had just achieved third level and started with 4,000 exp. He needs 8,000 to reach 4th level and 16,000 to reach fifth level.  

He has earned 5,883 exp from spending part of the dragon hoard to hire and house his new mercenary company. Now he has 9,883 exp and will achieve 4th level, so after the negotiations are done and the money is spent, the fighter levels and becomes a 4th level Hero. He still needs 6,127 exp to level to achieve 5th level, and still has 5,587 Gp to spend from the Dragon hoard, before he can actually earn those exp. Except for 1st and 2nd and 3rd level, it's pretty difficult for a player to level their character more than once in one adventure ...so I never adopted this rule, even for the 1st level characters since progression slowed down significantly after 3rd level. And if it is progressing more, it's on the GM, ...not the players.

I'll answer your other questions later today.
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« Reply #64 on: August 24, 2020, 01:33:18 PM »
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1145012
I run D&D 5e games but I've been looking at Basic and Old School Essentials and other such games because I'm going to be running a 5e game that's hacked to run like an old school gold-for-xp game. So I've been looking at some old rules.

Some of them don't make sense to me though, so I was hoping you guys could give me context or explain how they're supposed to work.

1) For instance, I see you can't level up more than once per session for the amount of gold you bring in. So if you bring in enough gold that could level you up 3 times, you only level up once and the rest is wasted. I don't understand why this limit is in place. If the players take all the risk to get a big reward, shouldn't they be able to benefit from it? What is this here for?

2) If you do "XP for gold spending", how do you stop the game from just becoming a farming simulator where you pay OTHER people to get gold for you? Or by being a businessman? My first thought is that only gold YOU get from the dungeon personally counts... but then you have to start tracking different piles of gold which sounds like it would be hard to keep straight.

3) There's the 10 minute dungeon turn. If you're trying to sneak around and be stealthy, how far are you supposed to be able to move? (In other words, if you're trying to stealth behind enemy lines.)

2) When others get gold, it counts as exp for "them". The only Xp you get is for Gold that you earn while adventuring as part of a party. if you have hirelings the xp for gold earned in a large group is split evenly among all of the adventurers (including the hirelings) the more people in the adventure part, the less total xp you receive from the gold (house rule).

3) Movement is very clear(unambiguous)  in Basic D&D, and I like the Holmes rule for that, out of the Bluebook. Goes like this:

"A fully armoured man can move 120 feet per turn at a cautious walk. Each turn takes ten minutes (scale time, not actual) in the characters' magical universe. In
the players' universe arguments sometimes develop and a turn may take considerably longer! Each turn is ten minutes except during combat where there are ten
melee rounds per turn, each round lasting ten seconds.

Let us say a party has come to a blank wall and decides to search it for secret doors. The Dungeon Master says it will take one turn for one character to
search a 10 foot section of wall. Unbeknownst to the adventurers, a monstrous purple worm is coming toward them down a side corridor. The Dungeon Master
consults his table of monsters and sees that the worm travels 60 feet per turn, so it will be 60 feet closer when the search is completed. Let us hope the party remembered to have somebody watch the rear!

Time must be taken to rest, so one turn every hour should be spent motionless -- i.e., one turn out of every six. If the party has been running (triple normal speed) they will need two turns to rest. An unarmoured and unencumbered man can move 240 feet per turn, an armored man 120 feet, and carrying a heavy load only half that. Faster speeds can be allowed for charging or a short sprint. If a character is being pursued, however, he may have to throw away
heavy treasure or armor in order to escape.
"

MOVEMENT TABLE
                                                                                  Feet/turn
Movement,                                                                    Exploring/Mapping,     Moving Normally,    Run x3
=====================================================================
unarmored, unencumbered                                              240,                                    480,              720
man,
fully armored man, or
carrying heavy load,                                                         120,                                    240,              360    
fully armored AND heavily
loaded,                                                                              60,                                    120,              180
running, unarmored ( X 3),                                                  -,                                        - ,               720
running, armored (X 3),                                                       -,                                        - ,               360
=====================================================================
A character can only run a number of rounds equal to their constitution, after which they must rest for one turn
walking slow.


So, Stealthing would be 120' per turn or 12' per round for a fully armored man carrying a heavy load...
« Last Edit: August 24, 2020, 01:36:16 PM by GameDaddy »
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« Reply #65 on: August 24, 2020, 01:44:35 PM »
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1145058
The replies bring me to a new question:

4) Training to level up takes weeks. I like the idea of training, but doesn't this mean the PC is basically out of play for god knows how long? Many of my campaigns will take months IRL to finish a single game day because the game is so packed with action. How does pacing of sessions relating to the in-game calendar go? Does every session take place after a week has passed or something?

5) Is "XP for gold brought home" considered better or "XP for spending gold"?

Also, as a followup to the training question: if I'm to understand the replies correctly, if you get more XP than your normal limit, you don't level up from it, but you still have the extra XP on hand to gain later when you've completed training?

So if I'm a level 1 Fighter, and it takes 300 XP for me to get to level 2, and 900 XP to be level 3... and I get 1,000 gold... I get enough experience to get right up to leveling twice -- so my XP stops at 899, right? What happens to the remaining 101 XP. Is that just gone forever, or does that get "banked" for after I get to level 2 and I can use it then?


4) Yes, the character is out of action and cannot adventure while training. This is why we used to roll up a bunch of characters.

5) Never used Xp for gold brought home. The characters have to spend the gold to get the xp. It was very unfortunate when their gold was stolen, or looted while they were off adventuring.
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« Reply #66 on: August 24, 2020, 02:17:19 PM »
Yes, if you don't find a scroll of fireball you can pay money to try and research the fireball spell.

The player can pick one spell for free when leveling up (and passing your roll to know).  So if a MU picked dispel magic as their freebie at level 5 but wanted to use spare cash to also research fireball, that would be fine.

This is 1E AD&D.  I have no idea how B/X or OSE handles it

Clerics are just like MUs in that not every possible cleric-y spell was conceived before the game was published.  It’s perfectly fine (and good!) for a player to research new cleric spells
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Cloyer Bulse
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« Reply #67 on: August 24, 2020, 02:25:45 PM »
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic
If you can research your own spells... can't you just research the spell you want to find instead of actually finding it? Or is that the point?....
In fact that is precisely how magic-users are supposed to replace lost spell books, as inferred by Sage Advice in Dragon #43 (the books themselves do not have a cost prior to the release of the useless cash grab known as Unearthed Arcana in 1985). If a spell-caster knows that a spell exists, then it makes perfect sense that he could be able to find it through research.

However, while research is being done, the spell-caster is not gaining x.p., he is losing valuable time, and he is draining his coffers, so in general it is a poor way of gaining new spells unless there is one particular spell that the caster absolutely has to have.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic
It seems strange that Clerics can also research. The Wizards can't choose their spells that they gain, right? But Clerics can. They already have an advantage. But they can research their own spells too? On top of that lore-wise they're getting the spells granted as miracles from gods so it's strange to just make their own...
One of the "flaws" of 1e is that all clerics are more or less identical, especially since they have such a limited number of weapons that they can use. One of the stated objectives of UA is to "fix" the cleric class by adding more spells.

In reality however there was no flaw and no fix was required. Clerics can and should differentiate themselves by researching their own spells.

In my own game, clerics who use magic-users spells (discovered through research) memorize them as if they were one level higher. Success in spell research can be vetoed by the cleric's deity if it is not pertinent to the cleric's mission (as defined by the cleric's deity and alignment). Clerics must discern the will of their deity through divination if they wish to avoid wasting valuable time and gold.

As a reminder, deities in AD&D are not omniscient (DMG 1e, p. 42). In my game, deities only know what their worshipers, both past and present, know. Nevertheless, this is a considerable body of knowledge, as it extends back thousands of years.


Quote from: Ghostmaker
One of the major flaws in the old system, IMO, was there really wasn't any mechanism for determining if a spell was 'commonly known' or not....

The DM is free to make certain spells in the PHB harder or easier to find if he wishes.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2020, 02:28:13 PM by Cloyer Bulse »

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« Reply #68 on: August 24, 2020, 03:39:48 PM »
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1145391
Another question:

I heard wizard gets their spell via RNG. Offensive, defensive, utility lists?

Do other magic users get it that way too, like cleric?

Here's how this works if you happen to have an Original D&D Magic-user, or Illusionist, or Ranger. This was also clarified in the Holmes Blue Book (1977) rules over the White/Brown 1974 bookset. It just so happened that I bought a Bluebox copy of D&D first, because it as less expensive than than the 1974 Bookset. What I didn't know when I bought it, was that it was gimped compared to the Brownbox 74 edition and only had progression for characters to level three.

Actually, I bought a 3rd printing Brownbox edition of D&D first, but the game store owner at Mile High comics called me at home the next day, and offered a trade, a Boxed Holmes Bluebook edition of D&D (with Dice), the Judges Guild Wizards Guide/Ready Ref sheets, and an extra set of Gamescience high impact dice. I took him up on his offer, and it would be a couple more months before I bought my first white bookset. ...Anyway back to the Magic User and starting spells.

In Holmes edition the magic user at first level has a basic 5% chance per point of intelligence of "knowing" a spell. When beginning the game It was presumed that the magic-user went to some school or college and learned some 1st level spells. So when creating a Magic-user, Illusionist, or Ranger, the player rolled randomly to determine what starting spells they had in their spellbook. They could try for every single first level spell. Let's say I had a Wizard with an Intelligence of 16, that means he had a base 80% chance of knowing a spell and having it written in their spellbook at the beginning of the game.

Vazhaar the Medium, a 1st level magic user would start like this. First he wanted Magic Missile, so he rolled... 94. No. He didn't learn that in school. Next he tries to learn the Sleep spell... 77 ...yes.  Next he tries for Charm Person... 54 yes.Next Light... 09, ...yes. Next Protection/Evil   05, yes. Next, Detect Magic 63, yes... Next Hold Portal...  100 no. Next, Read Magic... 34, yes. Finally read Languages... 48 yes.

So Vazhaar begins the game with every first level spell except for Magic Missile, and Hold Portal and can choose to have any of them prepared to cast.

When Vazhaar levels to 3rd, he can roll to see what second level spells he knows. When another Wizard gives him a new spell, he copies it into his spellbook, and has to roll to see if he learned that the spell properly when he copied it. If not, he doesn't get it, and it will not work when he attempts to cast it. Further he is never able to learn it, even if he sees it again. This is why Wizard's were not overpowering in the original edition of the game.

Now for clerics, they know all their spells automatically. As part of their service to their temple, they are taught the rituals and incantations for every single spell, so a cleric has access to the entire list of spells, and can cast the spells at will to their daily limit as listed in book one, Men & Magic.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2020, 03:47:30 PM by GameDaddy »
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« Reply #69 on: August 24, 2020, 03:59:22 PM »
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1146086
Another question about spending gold to gain XP:

Are there limits for how much you can spend? For instance, let's say you somehow luck into 10,000 gp while you are level 1 and return to town to spend it on carousing. Can you just spend all 10,000 gp and get 10,000 experience? Or does it cap out? If it caps out, can you spend that money later to gain the experience?

All of it. The Problem is spending it, ...of course. Let's say the player, a fighter named Otto... i.e. "Otto the Drunkard" wants to carouse and spend his gold that way. In the little village he's in, there is the Duck & Pony, a tavern, and the Valiant Knight Inn & Tavern. Player starts at the Duck & Pony, which has twenty-two kegs of ale, and four kegs of wine, as well as maybe another 500 Gp worth of exotic spirits.  Otto rolls up with his wagonload of gold and the rest of the party. He starts buying drinks for everyone. The Innkeeper charges 20 GP a Keg for Ale, and 50GP a keg for wine. Otto dumps 1,090 Gp on the counter at the Tavern, and buys the entire stock of liquor at that Tavern, and announces "Drinks are on me!"

Before dawn, the Duck & Pony is out of Liquor, presuming there are enough people to drink it all... Then Otto stumbles over to the Valiant Knight Inn & Tavern presuming of course, he hasn't already been mugged and robbed by the local thieves guild... wash rinse repeat. By Dawn, he's out 2,180 Gp, but both the Tavern and Inn Liquor supply is exhausted. He, of course, gets the experience points, but still has 7,820 Gp to spend. ...You see where this is heading?
« Last Edit: August 24, 2020, 04:01:47 PM by GameDaddy »
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« Reply #70 on: August 24, 2020, 04:04:08 PM »
Quote from: GameDaddy;1146270
Here's how this works if you happen to have an Original D&D Magic-user, or Illusionist, or Ranger. This was also clarified in the Holmes Blue Book (1977) rules over the White/Brown 1974 bookset. It just so happened that I bought a Bluebox copy of D&D first, because it as less expensive than than the 1974 Bookset. What I didn't know when I bought it, was that it was gimped compared to the Brownbox 74 edition and only had progression for characters to level three.

Actually, I bought a 3rd printing Brownbox edition of D&D first, but the game store owner at Mile High comics called me at home the next day, and offered a trade, a Boxed Holmes Bluebook edition of D&D (with Dice), the Judges Guild Wizards Guide/Ready Ref sheets, and an extra set of Gamescience high impact dice. I took him up on his offer, and it would be a couple more months before I bought my first white bookset. ...Anyway back to the Magic User and starting spells.

In Holmes edition the magic user at first level has a basic 5% chance per point of intelligence of "knowing" a spell. When beginning the game It was presumed that the magic-user went to some school or college and learned some 1st level spells. So when creating a Magic-user, Illusionist, or Ranger, the player rolled randomly to determine what starting spells they had in their spellbook. They could try for every single first level spell. Let's say I had a Wizard with an Intelligence of 16, that means he had a base 80% chance of knowing a spell and having it written in their spellbook at the beginning of the game.

Vazhaar the Medium, a 1st level magic user would start like this. First he wanted Magic Missile, so he rolled... 94. No. He didn't learn that in school. Next he tries to learn the Sleep spell... 77 ...yes.  Next he tries for Charm Person... 54 yes.Next Light... 09, ...yes. Next Protection/Evil   05, yes. Next, Detect Magic 63, yes... Next Hold Portal...  100 no. Next, Read Magic... 34, yes. Finally read Languages... 48 yes.

So Vazhaar begins the game with every first level spell except for Magic Missile, and Hold Portal and can choose to have any of them prepared to cast.

When Vazhaar levels to 3rd, he can roll to see what second level spells he knows. When another Wizard gives him a new spell, he copies it into his spellbook, and has to roll to see if he learned that the spell properly when he copied it. If not, he doesn't get it, and it will not work when he attempts to cast it. Further he is never able to learn it, even if he sees it again. This is why Wizard's were not overpowering in the original edition of the game.

Now for clerics, they know all their spells automatically. As part of their service to their temple, they are taught the rituals and incantations for every single spell, so a cleric has access to the entire list of spells, and can cast the spells at will to their daily limit as listed in book one, Men & Magic.

One codicil: I would definitely give magic-users read magic as a freebie, since it's practically a requirement to collect magical writings and spellbooks.

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« Reply #71 on: August 24, 2020, 04:07:46 PM »
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1146143
Yup, I love West Marches. This one is more in the megadungeon vein.

Another question:

In Old School Essentials, it lists that traps only go off 2 out of 6 times if they get triggered. If someone is tapping it with a ten foot pole or something to trigger it, do you TELL the player they found a trap if they trigger it but it doesn't go off? I am wondering what happens when they find out there's a trap that didn't go off with their 10 foot pole and just keep tapping it until it goes off.

I always ruled if they didn't trigger it, they wouldn't detect it. Except for thieves or rogues of course, if they made their roll to detect the traps the find the trigger or the trap, or both, and then they have to make a roll to disarm the trap. A successful disarm roll means the trap trigger has been neutralized. If anyone sets off the trap, it is of course, triggered, although a 10' pole might protect the player from falling into a pit trap, etc. et. al. once the trap has been triggered.

Also, my traps tend to be of a variety where even if it doesn't kill them outright, the players will be trapped, incapacitated, significantly delayed, drugged, or be exposed to disease, etc. if you are guarding your treasure hoard in a dungeon, are you going to set a lame trap that will just annoy any unwanted guests? Of course not. You are going to make a trap that maims, or kills, or creates total mayhem. That is what the NPCs do, design traps just like players would.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2020, 09:57:16 PM by GameDaddy »
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« Reply #72 on: August 24, 2020, 04:53:12 PM »
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1146189
One more question! (Man I am burying this thread in them.)

Magic Users could research their own spells. Was there a level requirement to this or could you start making your own spells all the way back at level 1? Is it only stuff you get on level up?

This is one thing that took me a long time to actually find and use, ...good magic research rules. In the original books it went something like this:

"Wizard's and above (8th level) may manufacture for their own use (or for sale) such items as potions, scrolls, and just about anything else magical. Costs are commensurate with the value of the item, as is the amount of game time required to enchant it."

So first, your Wizard had to make it to 8th level. I never liked that rule much, because that could easily take six months of play time, playing a once-a-week game before your Wizard even became qualified to start making magic items.

Examples of Costs are:

Item - Cost
==============================
Scroll of Spells - 100GP/Spell/Spell Lvl,  Level/Week. (a scroll containing a 5th level spell would cost 500 Gp and take five weeks to prepare.
Potion of Healing - 250 GP + 1 week
Potion of Giant Strength - 1,000 Gp + 4 Weeks
Enchanting 20 arrows - 1,000 Gp + 4 weeks
Enchanting Armor to +1 - 2,000 Gp + 2 months
Wand of Cold - 10,000 Gp + 6 Months
X-ray vision Ring - 50,000 Gp + 1 year.

Research by magical types can be done at any level of experience, but the level of magic involved dictates the possibility of success, as well as the amount of money necessary to invest. Assume  that a Magic-user can use a 4th level spell (Explained later), therefore could develop a new spell provided it was equal to or less than 4th level. All this will be explained fully in the section dealing with SPELLS.

So, here was the first contradiction in the rules... do you have to be a Wizard 8th level, ...or can you be any level to conduct magic research? Also note here spell casters could only manufacture magic items with spells that they already knew how to cast! If they didn't know it, or it was too high level for them to cast, they couldn't make a magic item including the spell. Anyway, on to the SPELLS section...

Magical Research
Both Magic-Users and Clerics may attempt to expand on the spells listed (as applicable by class). This is a matter of time and investment. The level of magic required to operate the spell (determination by the referee) dictates the initial investment. Investment for 1st level is 2,000 GP, 2nd lvl, 4,000 Gp, 3rd 8,000 Gp, etc. et al.

The time required is one week per spell level. for every amount equal to the basic investment there is a 20% chance of success, cumulative, An investment of 10,000 GP in order to develop a new 1st-level spell, for example has a 100% chance after one game week.


So you could create completely new spells in the original game. It was simply a matter of investing money and time. The caveats of course, are the GM decided what level the spell would be considered. In fact, almost everything was left up to the discretion of the GM, so the result was a set of wildly conflicting magic-item design rules that varied from GM to GM and campaign to campaign. This has never been fully resolved with any edition of D&D, however there was one really good article in Dragon Magazine #242 "The Laws of Spell Design" which offered a consistent set of guidelines for spell design that I eventually adopted for my games.

Judges Guild had some good guidelines for creating magic items that were included in the Wizard's Guide / ready ref Sheets. I adopted these for use in creating unique player magic items very early, in late 1977 early 1978... So they had to be 8th level to create magic items, but could design new spells starting right at the first level... That's how I understood the original magic design rules.

One other note I have is that Magic-users could not adventure while they were busy creating magic items, or designing new spells.

My feeling was that after AD&D 1e came out TSR wanted to exclusively design new magic items and spells, and didn't want players or GMs doing that anymore, so never focused on improving this part of the D&D rules. I ...of course, made my home games better.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2020, 05:08:39 PM by GameDaddy »
Blackmoor grew from a single Castle to include, first, several adjacent Castles (with the forces of Evil lying just off the edge of the world to an entire Northern Province of the Castle and Crusade Society's Great Kingdom.

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GameDaddy
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« Reply #73 on: August 24, 2020, 05:10:42 PM »
Quote from: Ghostmaker;1146273
One codicil: I would definitely give magic-users read magic as a freebie, since it's practically a requirement to collect magical writings and spellbooks.

Okay, only because using these rules even high level magic-users were limited in their power, by time, money, and their intelligence. After AD&D came out, I automatically let all magic-users be able to cast all of the 0-level cantrips.
Blackmoor grew from a single Castle to include, first, several adjacent Castles (with the forces of Evil lying just off the edge of the world to an entire Northern Province of the Castle and Crusade Society's Great Kingdom.

~ Dave Arneson

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« Reply #74 on: August 24, 2020, 06:17:46 PM »
Quote from: GameDaddy;1146279
This is one thing that took me a long time to actually find and use, ...good magic research rules.

They're an outtake of GURPS Lensman of all things, but I always liked this set of research rules, and wanted to adapt them to fantasy:
http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/Lensman/outtakes/lensgadg.html
I'm not suggesting blindly porting over the rules, but I think they provide an excellent general outline for how inventions happen, and thus can provide a framework or be robbed for ideas.