Rifts is not at all old school.

Also, the class/race/level mode of roleplaying is still very much in the present, and representative of the mainstream.

Quote from: Abyssal MawRifts is not at all old school.

Also, the class/race/level mode of roleplaying is still very much in the present, and representative of the mainstream.

I am not so sure. RIFTS seems to gleefully follow the definitely old school (or "gonzo", whatever that means in roleplaying) traditions of David Hargrave's Arduin. Its success, of course, is a very 90s thing, and I suspect it had to do a lot with TSR chickening out and toning down its own products.

John Morrow: presently, there is a very good thread on RPGNet about the role of random tables in old school play. Apparently, even Forge types have rediscovered this hoary old method of inspiration, and one of them even wrote an extensive essay about it!

Quote from: Abyssal MawRifts is not at all old school.

How not?

Rifts is all about kick in the door, shoot the monster, and grab its stuff.  It has no "roleplay mechanics" whatsoever.  It lacks anything resembling a 90s style unified system.  It's all about making up a bunch of characters who have no business being together in the same universe (much less the same group), giving them guns, and letting them shoot things.

Seems pretty old-school to me.

I think SkyRealms of Jorune, is old school. It came out in the mid 80s -fantasy warriors with laser guns...

Regards,
David R

While I'm not one to over-quibble with someone else's definitions of Old School, I see Rifts as the last great old school game before the rise of 3E.  Mainly because as designed it supports pretty much the same modes of play as pre-Dragonlance D&D.

Quote from: MelanJohn Morrow: presently, there is a very good thread on RPGNet about the role of random tables in old school play.

I think the "Stochasticity" comment hits the point I was making quite well.  People in my home town, in high school, used to run one player, no GM games (we called them "Solo Traveller") based off of published and home made random tables.  The Space Gamer used to have joke random tables all the time, too, because they were so common in the hobby.   That's a big part of the Old School feel for me.

Quote from: MelanApparently, even Forge types have rediscovered this hoary old method of inspiration, and one of them even wrote an extensive essay about it!

I assume you mean the essay on the Fantasy Oracle?  It's not loading for me right now.  I'll try to check it out later.

I find personally lacking any definition of old school which does not include pre-fourth edition CoC or games such as Gangbusters or Traveller.

These are early rpgs none of which followed the kick in the door random table approach.

It's why I think rpg.net gets Traveller wrong, they conflate it with a particular mode of D&D play which I don't think even accurately reflects how a lot of people were playing D&D in the early 1980s.

Quote from: BalbinusI find personally lacking any definition of old school which does not include pre-fourth edition CoC or games such as Gangbusters or Traveller.

These are early rpgs none of which followed the kick in the door random table approach.

I'd have to dig out Gangbusters but, uh, character creation in Traveller was all about random tables.  So were animal encounters, subsector generation, etc.  Need I really give you more specific examples?  As I said, in my home town, there were a lot of people who played Traveller games on their own using random tables to drive the action.  I think Traveller is almost the poster boy for the random table approach, which has nothing to do with "kick in the door".

I fixed some typos after posted.  Adding:  FYI, Traveller was the first real role-playing game I actually really played and it pretty much defines the feel of early role-playing for me.  I didn't really play D&D until college.  My town was a Traveller town.

Quote from: John MorrowI'd have to dig out Gangbusters but, uh, character creation in Traveller was all about random tables.  So were animal encounters, subsector generation, etc.  Need I really give you more specific examples?  As I said, in my home town, there were a lot of people who played Traveller games on their own using random tables to drive the action.  I think Traveller is almost the poster boy for the random table approach, which has nothing to do with "kick in the door".

I fixed some typos after posted.  Adding:  FYI, Traveller was the first real role-playing game I actually really played and it pretty much defines the feel of early role-playing for me.  I didn't really play D&D until college.  My town was a Traveller town.

Yeah, on reflection Traveller may not have been my strongest example.

CoC though to me is old school, as is Gangbusters and as were many other games from that period.

For me old school includes the following (not exclusively and in no particular order):

1. Character power is earned in play.
2. Characters who are unlucky or who are played foolishly will likely die.
3. Characters are, unless the dice favour you, average members of their professions at the start.
4. The rules are a starting point, you are expected to add to them as needed.
5.  Settings are your business, the rules govern only that absolutely necessary for play (Gangbusters fails this one in a sense, but the genre there rather demands a setting).
6.  Gaming is about the possibilities, about the freedom to enjoy whatever kind of story takes your fancy.
7.  Characters are not guaranteed to be of equivalent power or to face equivalently powered threats, life is unfair and the game reflects that.

Quote from: MelanJohn Morrow: presently, there is a very good thread on RPGNet about the role of random tables in old school play. Apparently, even Forge types have rediscovered this hoary old method of inspiration, and one of them even wrote an extensive essay about it!

Heh heh heh.  Musta read my blog.

Quote from: BalbinusCoC though to me is old school, as is Gangbusters and as were many other games from that period.

To me, they really aren't.  While CoC is certainly a "classic", it was considered something new and different when it came out, and always has been a little different than anything else.  So I'd call it "Classic" but not "Old School".  The same thing may be true of Gangbusters, which was never a pivotal game in my experience.  In fact, I think I got mine in a grab-bag of games that the local hobby shop was trying to get rid of.

Quote from: BalbinusFor me old school includes the following (not exclusively and in no particular order):

I agree that everything on your list were elements of Old School play but want to point out that Setting was also defined in Call of Cthulhu.  I don't think those games were characteristic of the period.

Quote from: John MorrowI agree that everything on your list were elements of Old School play but want to point out that Setting was also defined in Call of Cthulhu.  I don't think those games were characteristic of the period.

I'll give the matter further thought, your knowledge of rpg history is exceptional and there may be mileage in distinguishing old school from classic.

That said, many of those elements do still appear in the classics as you put it, it's only the setting issue they really fall foul of and in a sense any licenced or historical game must fall foul of that.

Old school




New school




Rap is still an art, and no-one's from the Old School
cuz Rap is still a brand-new tool
I say No one's from the old school, cuz rap as a whole
Isn't even 20 years old
50 years down the line we can start this
cuz we'll be the 'old school' artists...

"Old School" for me is a feeling to the game.  Even before 2E, there was a different feeling, that I can only call "PC".  Examples of this would be no longer having devils in D&D.  It started before that and I'm try to remember what made me feel like everything changed...I was reading Dragon and I realized something was different...but I can't remember.  It was like wimping out.  Here, I'm reading Conan, and here, I have a game that no longer has that feel, but should.

"PC" has ruined this country.  It even allowed an idiot to win an election...we didn't want to offend other idiots.  "No Timmy, you can't become President.  You are too dumb."  :mad:

I associate it with the idea of the game as a game with rules to be strictly obeyed and challenges to be fairly won or lost depending on luck and player skill.

A lack of "fudging" and players that are able to take the ups with the downs and not become too attached to their characters to roll up a fresh one and keep on trucking when the time comes.

Fair's fair. Never ventured, nothing gained. The show must go on.