It's been announced elsewhere here on the RPGsite (specifically, here: http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=13822), but I thought that some posters who, like myself, enjoy 'old school D&D' (viz., 0e D&D, 1e AD&D, Basic/Expert D&D, RC D&D, and their respective 'retro-clones'), would be interested to know that the 'old school' fanzine Fight On! is currently number 3 at the Lulu online shop! Many folks who hang out here are contributors to FO!, so well-done chaps!
In addition, the 0e 'retro-clone' Swords & Wizardry is number 7!
In an effort to promote both S&W and FO!, a Knockspell and Fight On! 'joint production' book of 'old school' art (just check out the amazing cover!) is being offered for a limited time (more info here at the RPGsite: http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=13821).
I'm very happy to see both of these excellent old school product lines doing so well, and am about to head over to Lulu in order to do some serious damage to my bank account.
It's gratifying to see that the 'Old School Renaissance' is no fiction, but a beautiful, glorious reality. Long live the grognards!
:gnome:
While I have no interest in Fight On or retro clones, it is excellent to hear that these editions of D&D still have a following.
Quote from: Aporon;293136While I have no interest in Fight On or retro clones, it is excellent to hear that these editions of D&D still have a following.
It's not just a question of "having a following."
What I'm especially impressed by is the fact that all of this -- as well as, of course, the
OSRIC and
Labyrinth Lord material -- is
fan-generated. It just goes to show that intelligent people who have been playing these games for years are capable of producing an abundance of great, exciting ideas – as good as anything (in my opinion) as that produced by 'professional' game designers.
Moreover, I have a sense of real community in the Old School Renaissance. I'm an equal participant in it, not merely a passive consumer. It's a very cool and exciting feeling.
It is impressive that both Knockspell and Fight On! have both been successful in the same niche, catering to essentially the same audience. Congrats to both mags!
Funny. Looking at all the "Looking for group" posters I've ever seen in person has told me there is a large number of people still playing AD&D or AD&D2E (and now likely 3E.)
Quote from: Spinachcat;293142It is impressive that both Knockspell and Fight On! have both been successful in the same niche, catering to essentially the same audience.
There's very little competition for the old schooler's dollars.
Quote from: The Shaman;293145There's very little competition for the old schooler's dollars.
Between Noble Knight and eBay these magazines compete with three decades worth of other products.
I found the price point of the Fight On! Compendium to be unreasonably high. The special offerings are kind of a gimmick to boost sales and get to the top 3 - I'm not that excited about this in particular.
Now, that said, the "Old School Renaissance" is no fiction. Being a big fan of vintage gaming in general, it's cool to see the mags and "retroclones" enjoy some measure of success, for sure! If it becomes a long-term, sustainable success, then I'll be truly thrilled. The community at large and the fans who give of their time to keep the games going deserve it. Looks like it's on its way to do so, and that in itself is very, very cool to see.
Quote from: jrients;293153Between Noble Knight and eBay these magazines compete with three decades worth of other products.
Not to mention lots of free new product on the web. And the GM's ability to just create whatever he needs or to reuse the pile of stuff he or she has collected over the years.
Quote from: jrients;293153Between Noble Knight and eBay these magazines compete with three decades worth of other products.
Not to disagree, but i would imagine that a significant part of the people participating in this resurgence didn't have to purchase much of what is available at KN or Ebay. They just had to dig through some boxes in the attik- or take a free retro clone from online.
Quote from: Aos;293163They just had to dig through some boxes in the attik- or take a free retro clone from online.
And can you blame them?
What reasonable human being would spend money on new crap when the old stuff he already owns or that he got free from the net is still being supported?
Not at all, it is the sensible thing to do- which was pretty much the point of my post.
i'm loving Swords & Wizardry. it'll be the next thing i run when the "conch" comes back around. ;)
Quote from: Benoist;293155I found the price point of the Fight On! Compendium to be unreasonably high...
Well, it
is a 400 page hardback. :) (It's still cheaper, though, to get the four issues separately.)
I'm one of the "dug it out of the box" guys. One of the distinctives of the "old school" market is that many of us simply don't need (or want) much stuff to buy.
I think one of the reasons that the magazines are doing pretty well is because that's the kind of thing I'm more likely to buy (and if I'm interested, and I'm a "tough sale," then I'd guess a lot of the old school market would be interested). I'm not much in the market for big adventures or campaign settings (I'd rather roll my own, and with the system I play, it's just as quick -- or quicker -- than reading, absorbing and prepping some other guy's creation). I don't want a bunch of new splat books or new rules. But a magazine -- yeah, I'd go for that. It's got a little of everything, in bite-sized chunks, maybe some "chatty" articles or gaming anecdotes, some art, ideas from a large group (rather than a single author), et cetera. Also, with Knockspell and Fight On!, I'm getting fan-created stuff. Stuff by gamers that share my general taste and approach. Stuff created for the love of it. The magazines remind me of early Dragon, or The Dungeoneer.
I doubt I will drop 40 for the hardback compendium, but I might order issue 3 and 4, and maybe some other time get the smaller 1 and 2.
150 pages of material for 10 bucks is a pretty damned GOOD price IMHO.
Even though I don't have any immediate need or use, that's a nice price.
Quote from: Edsan;293165What reasonable human being would spend money on new crap when the old stuff he already owns or that he got free from the net is still being supported?
Many of us don't care if a game is still being supported. Support can be nice, but if you have the rules and some dice, you really have all you really needed for most games folks would consider "old school." Magazines and fanzines are often popular even with folks with a large collections of goodies and/or who create their own campaign worlds and adventures, however, because they give lots of different ideas from people "just like us."
Quote from: Edsan;293165What reasonable human being would spend money on new crap when the old stuff he already owns or that he got free from the net is still being supported?
New stuff often has decades of hindsight informing them. It can be radically different than all the stuff already sitting on the shelf.
Quote from: JimLotFP;293210New stuff often has decades of hindsight informing them. It can be radically different than all the stuff already sitting on the shelf.
Agreed. There was a lot of stuff thrown out in the early days that wasn't followed up. For example my own Points of Light follows up and expands on the Wilderlands Hex crawl style.
In addition some of the stuff simply takes a long time or is tedious to create. So there is value being able to buy it and spend your time working on something else that is more interesting and fun.
This combine into a generate a market that people can sell too. I will be honest and say it not a big market. From various account it is growing.
4e really helped in this regard by breaking with 3e leaving a bunch of gamers looking for alternatives. For most Pathfinder from Paizo will work out great but more than a few are rediscovering older editions.
For me there is a vibrancy around the participants in the Old School Revival that makes creating products for older editions fun.
Quote from: Akrasia;293185Well, it is a 400 page hardback. :) (It's still cheaper, though, to get the four issues separately.)
That's what I meant, but you've got a point nonetheless: if I could reasonably afford it, I would buy it in an instant. Not at the moment, however. Darn economic meltdown...
On a side note, I cannot wait to get my S&W hardback, however. Matt made an offer to UK and Canadian costumers to order the books and re-ship them their way I just could not refuse. *grins*
By the way, to answer to PJ, another reason I think the mags are doing well is because of The Dragon and how it basically emulates the era of 1975 on where most of the gaming material and advice came from it. People interested in the roots of the game connect to that.
Did someone say they were looking for olde school products?
;)
Quote from: JimLotFP;293210New stuff often has decades of hindsight informing them. It can be radically different than all the stuff already sitting on the shelf.
Many of the New Old School writers probably have more hours behind the DM screen today than any of the authors of the early D&D products had at the time they wrote the articles.
Also, current authors have the advantage of the vast library of other RPG development and creation, fantasy literature, film and video game influences that did not exist in the 70s.
All this combines into a different perspective.
Benoist, I actually agree with you that the FOC is overpriced. We priced it that way because we'd rather have non-paying customers frustrated at our overcharging for this special item than paying customers frustrated that they got 'ripped off' on the individual issues, or thinking 'i'll just wait until the end of the year when (if?) the compendium comes out', etc. All our pricing is driven by making the print issues of the magazine (a) as cheap as possible, with at most around $1 going to the fanzine to support costs and (b) the most desirable alternative available.
That said, it isn't getting any cheaper if it stays around at all, which it may not, and it's only available for another day or so guaranteed, so... ;-)
I'm biased, but I really do think issues 3 and 4 are two of the greatest values in the history of recent RPG publishing. We're trying to get back down to an 88 page saddle stitched standard (which is still a good value at 9 bucks IMO) but we keep getting so much good material in it's hard...
That said, we're really grateful for all the tremendous support we've gotten, and I hope a lot more of you will come by and pick up a product or three before the end of the contest! We old schoolers should have one more victory in us yet...
I won't lie to you Calithena: I'm really tempted, otherwise I wouldn't talk about the Compendium at all! ;)
I also do understand the logic behind the price point. Surely, there had to be a way to reward people who followed FO! from the start. That's totally understandable.
And now, I must tell you I'm shocked. Are you actually complaining you are receiving too much good stuff for FO? You ungrateful... :D So much for my own ideas! LOL
We can always use more. It's not like we're an issue ahead or anything!
Quote from: Calithena;293305We can always use more. It's not like we're an issue ahead or anything!
Alright! :D
Yall are getting this stuff out faster than Worlds of Cthulhu, which seems to have gone from a quarterly to a yearly, and Unspeakable Oath, which has been on hiatus so long its apparently just gonna get a reboot from the top!
Hell, keep doing the mega issues if you have enough material!
I'm very likely to buy 3 and 4. Less to get 1 and 2.
Here's me on my knees, begging anyone who's ever thought of picking us up in print to do it now. With one day to go we are back in second place, ahead of One Glance Ministries and behind the National Hot Rod Association for the lead.
Quote from: Captain Rufus;293318I'm very likely to buy 3 and 4. Less to get 1 and 2.
2 is better than 4, IMO. #4 is oriented towards science-fantasy (which I do like), but the adventures in it left me cold and I haven't been motivated to read that ish as closely as the others.
None of the issues are bad, though--- quite the opposite.
Calithena,
I very much like the spirit of Fight On and bought your current issue. However, my biggest complaints is that much of the material felt very rough and badly in need for a re-writes (some of which probably shouldn't of even been published at all). Also, for an issue dedicated to my old friend, I wish it would of had more Arduin related --or even-- inspired material. Even that lackluster Greg Ezpinoza "Arduin Trillogy" illustration would of been a better choice of a cover then the one that was used.
Just my two Ha' Pennies ( or I should say my $10 bucks plus $11.59 in handling). Hopefully, wil see a great Tekumel issue in the near future with new material and maybe a current interview ( which pictures I hope) of the Professor himself.
Quote from: Aos;293163Not to disagree, but i would imagine that a significant part of the people participating in this resurgence didn't have to purchase much of what is available at KN or Ebay. They just had to dig through some boxes in the attik- or take a free retro clone from online.
Or anything they did need to buy, they bought, and that was that: "Hey, I need to collect all of the core rule books and supplements for
OD&D!" (*
logs into DriveThruRPG . . . five minutes pass . . .*) "Okay! That's the complete canon!"
I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, please, but there isn't a huge amount of new material published commercially, with (relatively sophisticated) commercial production values. A fair amount of fan stuff, yes - I am a
habitué of
Dragonsfoot, so I hear about some of this - but
Fight On! and
Knockspell are more akin to the old school gamers' modern incarnations of
Pegasus and
The Dragon.
Ok dammit, I grabbed 2 and 3 given the comments here and all.
Besides, I can't let my fellow nerds be beaten by the frickin NHRA or any place with "Ministries" in the title now can I?
They just go in a straight line! Its like a more boring version of NASCAR. Which makes it.. super boring.
Damn Europeans at least get some cool racing with Rally and F1s on things that do more than go straight or drive around an oval I tells ya! :)
Quote from: The Shaman;293342....but Fight On! and Knockspell are more akin to the old school gamers' modern incarnations of Pegasus and The Dragon.
I see that as a good point. I'm not interested in most of the "modern production values" I see in RPG products. Many either add little of gaming value to the product or even make the product harder to use (e.g. printing text over pictures, repetitive page boarders that waste ink when you print the PDF, etc.)
Quote from: The Shaman;293342I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, please, but there isn't a huge amount of new material published commercially, with (relatively sophisticated) commercial production values. A fair amount of fan stuff, yes - I am a habitué of Dragonsfoot, so I hear about some of this - but Fight On! and Knockspell are more akin to the old school gamers' modern incarnations of Pegasus and The Dragon.
As an original subscriber to Pegasus magazine both Knockspell and Fight On! are above Pegasus in quality. Right now I say they are on par with the early issues of Dragon Magazine. Some areas are slightly worse and other are slightly better.
The main limitation will be the expense of interior color vs grayscale.
Quote from: Captain Rufus;293359Besides, I can't let my fellow nerds be beaten by the frickin NHRA or any place with "Ministries" in the title now can I?
They just go in a straight line! Its like a more boring version of NASCAR. Which makes it.. super boring.
Damn Europeans at least get some cool racing with Rally and F1s on things that do more than go straight or drive around an oval I tells ya! :)
Americans excel at going fast in a straight line - muscle cars are "point-and-shoot."
Europeans excel at going fast in the real world.
Quote from: estar;293386As an original subscriber to Pegasus magazine both Knockspell and Fight On! are above Pegasus in quality.
Are you talking about production values, or content?
Quote from: The Shaman;293394Are you talking about production values, or content?
Both. The quality of content in Pegasus was very uneven as well as production value.
Thanks, Captain Rufus, everyone. I hope those of you who bought stuff enjoy it.
Mrk, good to get your feedback. I like the material in our magazine, but if you have some better stuff, send it along! We can always use more good ideas.
Likely issue #7 will be devoted to Professor Barker. I don't know what we can do as far as special content, interviews, etc. but we're talking to some people about it already.
Quote from: Calithena;293695Likely issue #7 will be devoted to Professor Barker. I don't know what we can do as far as special content, interviews, etc. but we're talking to some people about it already.
Barker is a mysterious figure, now elderly and (rumour has it) unwell. History demands that someone do a comprehensive interview with him soon!
I actually get on pretty well with Phil, though I haven't talked to him lately. He has done a lot of interviews over the years but maybe it's time for one more.
I think the last interview he did was about 20 years ago so a new one would certainly be nice. Also, I'm sure I wouldn't be alone to say it would be really great to get a snapshot or two of the Professor and his legendary Tekumel archive that we've been hearing about over the years.
BTW...has anyone heard about a TV show with these two etymologist who travel around the world finding new and weird languages? If so, I want to contact them and DEMAND that they interview the Professor!
Quote from: mrk;293765BTW...has anyone heard about a TV show with these two etymologist who travel around the world finding new and weird languages? If so, I want to contact them and DEMAND that they interview the Professor!
um... there is a show like this? :worship:
wow. I MUST KNOW ABOUT IT!
Quote from: Pere Ubu;295429um... there is a show like this? :worship:
wow. I MUST KNOW ABOUT IT!
Yeah, exactly. More details please, old bean. :)
Quote from: Aos;293163Not to disagree, but i would imagine that a significant part of the people participating in this resurgence didn't have to purchase much of what is available at KN or Ebay. They just had to dig through some boxes in the attik- or take a free retro clone from online.
this is totally correct in my case.
i've got a lot of bd&d in print form, and even more on pdf.
i still bought Labryinth Lord in book form after i got the pdf, mainly because my print Rules Cyclopedia has shown many, many years on it's cover.
i've now collected quite a bit of the pdf's and fan stuff online (including Fight On) and enjoy digging through my old notes and putting my old stuff on doc's to keep them in electronic form, not only for storage,but to print off and use again.
I never played AD&D, but I got the books. And it sounds awesome. I actually think if it were tweaked a little. It would be more balanced then 3.5 but not stale like 4th edition.
There's only a few classes, but over 9000 varaints..
There's a saving throw for everything. A saving throw against breath attacks, poison, death spells, seeing your mother naked... There's even a saving throw to not die from the shock of being ressurected!
Rogue's sneak attack was better back then as it outright multiplied damage.
Fighters were the only one who could really gain HP.
Clerics still were uber and had the best saving throws. But they weren't nearly as versatile in their spell arsenal and were a defensive class.
Wizards were still God modded. But they had the HP of a child. (I'm not kidding)
Monsters were simple. They had some cooky ability, AC, HP, and damage. They didn't have a bunch of crap about stats, and spell-like abilities that never get used.
Skillpoints did not exist. Your skills increased based off situations like stats, armor, class variant, race, blood type...
In general. AD&D is my favorite edition from a mechanics perspective. I don't know what the hell they were smoking when they thoughtup Thac0 however..
Quote from: Jim Profit;295811There's a saving throw for everything. A saving throw against breath attacks, poison, death spells, seeing your mother naked... There's even a saving throw to not die from the shock of being ressurected!
Well, to be honest, there are only about six different types of save, which each get used for all kinds of wierd-ass things (especially Save Vs. Petrification), and the System Shock roll for being revived really isn't technically a saving throw.
And Clerics being defensive? With spells like Insect Plague and Flame Strike, as well as Holy/Unholy Word? You don't want to piss off someone who has a direct hotline to Diety, nosirree. :)