Quote from: fixable on April 25, 2022, 04:33:33 AM
I like to go back to Referee, myself, as it is a good term for what a dungeon 'master' should really be. A fair and impartial referee of the rules without any bias or control over the game or the group. The best D&D games are the ones that are open ended and develop emergent story based on the fair adjudication of an impartial referee to determine what happens when players do what they want to do.

There is no such thing as a neutral gamerunner, and every action they take will affect player actions. For example, simply describing a thing in more detail will intentional or not lead players to assign more importance to it. Likewise not describing a thing at all implies it's either irrelevant, or players are expected to assume its existence or explicitly ask about it.

Quote from: Zelen on April 25, 2022, 01:20:38 PM

Quote from: fixable on April 25, 2022, 04:33:33 AM
master is going away as a default term in github. It's time that it goes away in D&D too.

lol fuck off

Greetings!

Brilliant! *Laughing*

My feelings exactly.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: fixable on April 25, 2022, 04:33:33 AM
I like to go back to Referee, myself, as it is a good term for what a dungeon 'master' should really be. A fair and impartial referee of the rules without any bias or control over the game or the group.

A referee doesn't play the game they adjudicate, so no it isn't "a good term". It fails at the most basic definition of the word.

Quote from: fixable on April 25, 2022, 04:33:33 AM

Quote from: Jam The MF on April 11, 2022, 09:51:32 PM
Dungeon Master
Dungeon Master
Dungeon Master

I refuse to comply.

master is going away as a default term in github. It's time that it goes away in D&D too.

I like to go back to Referee, myself, as it is a good term for what a dungeon 'master' should really be. A fair and impartial referee of the rules without any bias or control over the game or the group. The best D&D games are the ones that are open ended and develop emergent story based on the fair adjudication of an impartial referee to determine what happens when players do what they want to do.

Let's try to get D&D further from pre-planned stories and more towards emergent game-play. That actually starts by no longer referring to the 'DM' as the Dungeon 'Master' which implies someone who controls the story but instead something more neutral like Referee.

I see what you're saying, but it's a complete load of horse shit.

Dungeon Master doesn't imply anything beyond what YOU think it implies. It can mean many things.

Dungeon Master can mean:

-A fair and impartial referee of the rules without any bias or control over the game or the group
-A referee who introduces a game world with emergent game play and/or pre-planned stories
- someone who provides challenges to test the wits and skill of the players AND their characters.
-the person who is in control of the game world the PCs interact in.

Dungeon Master ALWAYS meant all of those things, and to some  much more. It all depends on style. so stop trying to shoehorn what a referee is supposed to be in your narrow terms. there is nothing wrong with Dungeon Master as a title to describe ultimately WHO IS IN CHANGE of the game. To enforce rules when need and letting the dice fall where they may. When I DM, I AM GOD. It's my game world. I will be impartial and unbiased. if your character dies, they die. too bad soo sad. Suck it up buttercup. If I say you can't do something, deal with it. If your PC goes off and does something on their own, fine. I'm not gonna hold your hand if you fuck up. Your choice.

Or would you rather have a neutral referee who just sits there and acts like a god damn meat sack to roll dice?

Fuck that.

Quote from: blackstone on April 28, 2022, 10:40:32 AMDungeon Master ALWAYS meant all of those things, and to some  much more. It all depends on style. so stop trying to shoehorn what a referee is supposed to be in your narrow terms. there is nothing wrong with Dungeon Master as a title to describe ultimately WHO IS IN CHANGE of the game.

To be fair, there is ONE problem with Dungeon Master as a term; it is trademarked by WotC (and TSR before that) https://trademarks.justia.com/742/64/dungeon-74264094.html.

It is also one of the terms considered "product identity" under the OGL meaning that, like Beholders and Mind Flayers, you can't actually use it in an OGL product.

Which is why "Game Master" is what you always see outside of actual D&D products.

Call it whatever you want on a message board, but in terms of writing for publication; Game Master is what you're going to want to be using.

Quote from: Chris24601 on April 28, 2022, 12:22:27 PM
It is also one of the terms considered "product identity" under the OGL meaning that, like Beholders and Mind Flayers, you can't actually use it in an OGL product.

Which is why "Game Master" is what you always see outside of actual D&D products.

Call it whatever you want on a message board, but in terms of writing for publication; Game Master is what you're going to want to be using.

Sure but it's not the "Dungeon" these idiots are objecting to.  It's Master.  There are a bunch of loonies running around trying to remove entire words from the language because of one definition causing imaginary mental distress to someone other than themselves.

As mentioned in the thread, we went through this same crap in IT.  The master branch of a GIT repo now defaults to main instead, even though the likely context for master here was taken from a master tape in the recording industry.

Quote from: blackstone on April 28, 2022, 10:40:32 AM

Quote from: fixable on April 25, 2022, 04:33:33 AM
I like to go back to Referee, myself, as it is a good term for what a dungeon 'master' should really be. A fair and impartial referee of the rules without any bias or control over the game or the group. The best D&D games are the ones that are open ended and develop emergent story based on the fair adjudication of an impartial referee to determine what happens when players do what they want to do.

Let's try to get D&D further from pre-planned stories and more towards emergent game-play.

I see what you're saying, but it's a complete load of horse shit.

Dungeon Master doesn't imply anything beyond what YOU think it implies. It can mean many things.

Dungeon Master can mean:

-A fair and impartial referee of the rules without any bias or control over the game or the group
-A referee who introduces a game world with emergent game play and/or pre-planned stories
- someone who provides challenges to test the wits and skill of the players AND their characters.
-the person who is in control of the game world the PCs interact in.

Dungeon Master ALWAYS meant all of those things, and to some  much more. there is nothing wrong with Dungeon Master as a title to describe ultimately WHO IS IN CHANGE of the game. To enforce rules when need and letting the dice fall where they may. When I DM, I AM GOD. It's my game world. I will be impartial and unbiased. if your character dies, they die. too bad soo sad. Suck it up buttercup.

What a term means internally within the game is different what it implies based on the wording. Starting from original D&D, the referee position has usually been defined within RPGs to be the same thing. So an OD&D "referee" is internally defined the same as an AD&D "dungeon master" which is the same as a CoC "keeper of arcane lore" which is the same as a V:tM "storyteller" and so forth. But each of those terms implies something a little different based on their wording.

Personally, I hate railroading. I think it's a scourge that is all too common, and I much prefer games where the ref/DM/keeper/storyteller doesn't dictate the one path that the PCs have to go on. That's why I particularly dislike the term "storyteller" because it implies someone who tells a story to the players. I've generally been fine with DM or GM, but I prefer to imply less a railroading dictator and more someone who arbitrates the results of PC actions.

Quote from: Chris24601 on April 28, 2022, 12:22:27 PM

Quote from: blackstone on April 28, 2022, 10:40:32 AMDungeon Master ALWAYS meant all of those things, and to some  much more. It all depends on style. so stop trying to shoehorn what a referee is supposed to be in your narrow terms. there is nothing wrong with Dungeon Master as a title to describe ultimately WHO IS IN CHANGE of the game.

To be fair, there is ONE problem with Dungeon Master as a term; it is trademarked by WotC (and TSR before that) https://trademarks.justia.com/742/64/dungeon-74264094.html.

It is also one of the terms considered "product identity" under the OGL meaning that, like Beholders and Mind Flayers, you can't actually use it in an OGL product.

Which is why "Game Master" is what you always see outside of actual D&D products.

Call it whatever you want on a message board, but in terms of writing for publication; Game Master is what you're going to want to be using.

I don't plan on publishing, so I will continue to use the title Dungeon Master, and WotC can go fuck themselves.

Quote from: jhkim on April 28, 2022, 01:07:55 PM

Quote from: blackstone on April 28, 2022, 10:40:32 AM

Quote from: fixable on April 25, 2022, 04:33:33 AM
I like to go back to Referee, myself, as it is a good term for what a dungeon 'master' should really be. A fair and impartial referee of the rules without any bias or control over the game or the group. The best D&D games are the ones that are open ended and develop emergent story based on the fair adjudication of an impartial referee to determine what happens when players do what they want to do.

Let's try to get D&D further from pre-planned stories and more towards emergent game-play.

I see what you're saying, but it's a complete load of horse shit.

Dungeon Master doesn't imply anything beyond what YOU think it implies. It can mean many things.

Dungeon Master can mean:

-A fair and impartial referee of the rules without any bias or control over the game or the group
-A referee who introduces a game world with emergent game play and/or pre-planned stories
- someone who provides challenges to test the wits and skill of the players AND their characters.
-the person who is in control of the game world the PCs interact in.

Dungeon Master ALWAYS meant all of those things, and to some  much more. there is nothing wrong with Dungeon Master as a title to describe ultimately WHO IS IN CHANGE of the game. To enforce rules when need and letting the dice fall where they may. When I DM, I AM GOD. It's my game world. I will be impartial and unbiased. if your character dies, they die. too bad soo sad. Suck it up buttercup.

What a term means internally within the game is different what it implies based on the wording. Starting from original D&D, the referee position has usually been defined within RPGs to be the same thing. So an OD&D "referee" is internally defined the same as an AD&D "dungeon master" which is the same as a CoC "keeper of arcane lore" which is the same as a V:tM "storyteller" and so forth. But each of those terms implies something a little different based on their wording.

Personally, I hate railroading. I think it's a scourge that is all too common, and I much prefer games where the ref/DM/keeper/storyteller doesn't dictate the one path that the PCs have to go on. That's why I particularly dislike the term "storyteller" because it implies someone who tells a story to the players. I've generally been fine with DM or GM, but I prefer to imply less a railroading dictator and more someone who arbitrates the results of PC actions.

railroad or sandbox, it doesn't matter to me. As long as the DM is good, I'm good.