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Author Topic: Now they are coming for your old rulebooks  (Read 40090 times)

oggsmash

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« Reply #165 on: July 01, 2020, 06:17:03 PM »
Quote from: EOTB;1137458
My quoted response was limited to a scenario where previous law was declared null and void.  Not today's reality

 Well, you cant just declare previous law null and void.  You have to make a rather long, and detailed with grievance case as to why the law should be null and void.  Maybe start with wiping out controversial historical statues or land marks and then work your way to much more accepted statues and land marks.  Maybe work in how many of the national holidays are unjust or evil.  But we are a long ways from any of that nonsense.
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GameDaddy

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« Reply #166 on: July 01, 2020, 06:32:39 PM »
Quote from: CRKrueger;1137389
Looks like a different group of people at asiansread are doing Al Qadim.  Looks like people of middle-eastern descent and a red headed British white chick who says she's an LGBTQ+PoC.
https://twitter.com/EvilCleverDog/status/1275111601776087041


Still have to watch this...


Quote from: CRKrueger;1137389

Daniel Kwan and bunch have indeed moved on to L5R.
https://twitter.com/aznsrepresent/status/1276607143538556930


Ok watched about twenty minutes of this, and then queued up my DvD copy of "The Revenant" in order to watch Leonardo DiCaprio get raped by a Bear, and then exact revenge on everyone who left him for the bear, because it was so much more entertaining than listening to these four rambling on... OMG ...soooo boring!!! Seems obvious only two of them have read through L5R, and ...WTF? An Archaeologist reviewing Fantasy RPG games, ...because why again??? I couldn't fathom any reason a fantasy gamer would care whether or not  an archaeologist would approve of how they chose to game... so just simply confused about why she was invited to provide commentary in the first place.

While they read the book, it was also obvious that they didn't run an L5R campaign for themselves. I would have been much more interested in their commentary and evaluation if they actually tried the game and provided feedback on their experience playing. Are these guys even gamers, and if so, what do they play instead of L5R?

While these losers seem happy running around ripping on other peoples games, It would be much better for them, if they just designed and released their own Asian themed game, adding all the improvements they feel are lacking. I'd really like to see them do that. Then I'd like to try their game, then I might have some shred of respect for their evaluation of games from, ...well... almost fifty years ago, back when very few Asians even played RPGs. I'd love to see them pioneer a new form of gaming instead of ripping on the truly innovative pioneers.
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Lynn

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« Reply #167 on: July 01, 2020, 06:54:47 PM »
Quote from: Tom Kalbfus;1137425
The truth is Asia and Europe are both parts of the same continent, it is a single landmass, the border between, the Ural Mountains is an arbitrary demarcation line. The continents Europe and Asia are really much more defined by what the people look like who live there rather than any geological feature. China is on the same continent as France!


I always thought "Oriental" was a bit strange in referring to "Asia Minor" and beyond. A Lovecraftian "Orientalist" has a bit too much on their plate.
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« Reply #168 on: July 01, 2020, 07:08:05 PM »
Quote from: EOTB;1137458
My quoted response was limited to a scenario where previous law was declared null and void.  Not today's reality

Well then. Ok dokey. :)
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« Reply #169 on: July 01, 2020, 07:41:56 PM »
Quote from: GameDaddy;1137461
Ok watched about twenty minutes of this, and then queued up my DvD copy of "The Revenant" in order to watch Leonardo DiCaprio get raped by a Bear, and then exact revenge on everyone who left him for the bear, because it was so much more entertaining than listening to these four rambling on... OMG ...soooo boring!!! Seems obvious only two of them have read through L5R, and ...WTF? An Archaeologist reviewing Fantasy RPG games, ...because why again??? I couldn't fathom any reason a fantasy gamer would care whether or not  an archaeologist would approve of how they chose to game... so just simply confused about why she was invited to provide commentary in the first place.
The thing I find puzzling about all this is the self-appointed experts.  It seems that people aren't making a case for racism, they're just explaining why it is and you need to listen.  Which is tedious.

And it seems to be forgotten that close reading is actually a skill which takes a lot of work to get good at (I should know I used to teach it) and is very much subject to confirmation bias and requires a very good understanding of context.  

And who want's to watch a 2 hour video of people reading pseudo-critically through Al-Qadim?  There's a problem when the intended audience is people who lack all perspective anyway.  This is more ridiculous then watching videos of other people gaming.  Watching other people pontificate about products from a generation ago that are not even in print and probably only generate small volumes of sales anyway.

MonsterSlayer

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« Reply #170 on: July 01, 2020, 07:46:32 PM »
Quote from: Tom Kalbfus;1137425
The truth is Asia and Europe are both parts of the same continent, it is a single landmass, the border between, the Ural Mountains is an arbitrary demarcation line. The continents Europe and Asia are really much more defined by what the people look like who live there rather than any geological feature. China is on the same continent as France!


I don't think geologists would agree with this. I think plate tectonics is the defining theory on the distinction. (hence the Himalayas boundary)  But I can sort of see your point except Europe and North Africa are not separated by that many miles of piddly water. And I do not see you claiming they are the same continent. France is a lot closer to Morocco than it is China and it is a lot easier to get to Africa from France than it is to get to China.

;-)
But let's not let that get in the way of a racist argument. *sarcasm*

jhkim

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« Reply #171 on: July 01, 2020, 07:47:07 PM »
Quote from: GameDaddy;1137461
While these losers seem happy running around ripping on other peoples games, It would be much better for them, if they just designed and released their own Asian themed game, adding all the improvements they feel are lacking. I'd really like to see them do that. Then I'd like to try their game, then I might have some shred of respect for their evaluation of games from, ...well... almost fifty years ago, back when very few Asians even played RPGs. I'd love to see them pioneer a new form of gaming instead of ripping on the truly innovative pioneers.
I still haven't watched the videos, so no comments directly on them.

But in my experience, the most annoying thing about this type of critique is that it often implies that the most problematic old material are the ones that feature the most non-white characters. Standard AD&D with almost no blacks or Asians is not called out, but Oriental Adventures is considered problematic for its portrayal of Asians. The implication of this is that if I'm an author, the best way to not be problematic is to only write about white people, and not have any Asians or blacks in my writing. That seems backwards to me.

I have some critiques of Oriental Adventures, but I think there should be recognition of the effort and interest that the authors put into including Asian culture.

rocksfalleverybodydies

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« Reply #172 on: July 01, 2020, 08:24:24 PM »
Now I remember where I saw that guy Kwan's name before:  He's part of Dundas Games.
I was interested in grabbing a hardcover of their upcoming PbtA Ross Rifles as I am a WW1 history nut.  Guess they just lost a sale from me.  Too bad as it looked interesting.

Why did he have to be a fellow Canuck with that book banning mentality?  Ah T.O. you never disappoint.

Judging by his portfolio, if i was into conspiracies, would guess his endgame is to get WOTC to dump the book, then elevator pitch them to be the lead on rewriting the setting book for 5e (using those elite 'sensitivity reading' skills) with help from his buddies.  Heh
« Last Edit: July 01, 2020, 08:25:41 PM by rocksfalleverybodydies »

Kyle Aaron

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« Reply #173 on: July 01, 2020, 08:56:00 PM »
Quote from: jhkim;1137472
The implication of this is that if I'm an author, the best way to not be problematic is to only write about white people, and not have any Asians or blacks in my writing. That seems backwards to me.

It's not backwards at all. First, they tell you that your writing is Problematic because it includes people from group X, and since you are not from group X, it's wrong for you to write about them. Next, they tell you that your writing is Problematic because it does not include anyone from group X.

Thus, your only recourse is not to write anything at all. And thus you have become like them: someone who produces nothing. That's the end game.

It's like that university offering free online courses that got in trouble because the law required they make all their courses accessible to disabled people - and they didn't have the funds to do so, so pulled the free courses. No access is equal access.

If they think OA is crap they should write their own better version. I am tired of CJWs whinging that they will get "cancelled" when anyone can publish anywhere these days, and I am tired of SJWs whinging that this or that product doesn't include them, or doesn't represent them properly. Write something and publish it. Produce.
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« Reply #174 on: July 01, 2020, 09:35:56 PM »
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1137478
Write something and publish it. Produce.

If only these feckless idiots would get up off their arse and actually do something... I guess it's easier to open your mouth and wait to be spoon fed.
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Opaopajr

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« Reply #175 on: July 01, 2020, 10:14:51 PM »
I've already mentioned the solution before, as have others: you hold their precious to their same impossible standards until they fracture and eat their own. :) Mutual Assured Destruction does wonders for brinksmanship diplomacy. ;) In fact there has already been a massive bundle of their collected works for charity of late.

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Tyberious Funk

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« Reply #176 on: July 01, 2020, 10:47:20 PM »
Quote from: The Exploited.;1137481
If only these feckless idiots would get up off their arse and actually do something... I guess it's easier to open your mouth and wait to be spoon fed.


To be fair, why would they?  It's much easier to generate clicks/downloads by saying something controversial and/or critical.  You'll get supporters rushing to have their existing views affirmed, and critics rushing to be outraged.  This thread is a perfect example... I have zero idea who these guys are, but they've now generated 18 pages of (mostly) outrage.  I dare say there is also plenty of activity on reddit, rpg.net and other places.  That's quite a lot of publicity for minimal effort.
 

Hakdov

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« Reply #177 on: July 01, 2020, 11:09:45 PM »
man, if they think OA is problematic...

[ATTACH=CONFIG]4631[/ATTACH]

VisionStorm

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« Reply #178 on: July 01, 2020, 11:12:57 PM »
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1137478
It's not backwards at all. First, they tell you that your writing is Problematic because it includes people from group X, and since you are not from group X, it's wrong for you to write about them. Next, they tell you that your writing is Problematic because it does not include anyone from group X.

Thus, your only recourse is not to write anything at all. And thus you have become like them: someone who produces nothing. That's the end game.


Exactly.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1137478
It's like that university offering free online courses that got in trouble because the law required they make all their courses accessible to disabled people - and they didn't have the funds to do so, so pulled the free courses. No access is equal access.


Another win for "equality".

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1137478
If they think OA is crap they should write their own better version. I am tired of CJWs whinging that they will get "cancelled" when anyone can publish anywhere these days, and I am tired of SJWs whinging that this or that product doesn't include them, or doesn't represent them properly. Write something and publish it. Produce.


I agree. "CJWs" whinging about about SJWs trying to cancel stuff is the exact same thing as SJWs whinging about RPG books to try to get them canceled, and not a false equivalence. And the capacity of either group to produce stuff is totally germane to the topic of just one of those groups trying to get RPG books canceled. But NJWs whinging about CJWs whinging about SJWs whinging about RPG books to try to get them canceled is golden, and should not be held to those same whinging standards, or their capacity to produce stuff called into question. ;)

Ratman_tf

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« Reply #179 on: July 01, 2020, 11:30:42 PM »
Quote from: jhkim;1137472
I have some critiques of Oriental Adventures, but I think there should be recognition of the effort and interest that the authors put into including Asian culture.

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