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Author Topic: Now they are coming for your old rulebooks  (Read 62306 times)

Brad

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« Reply #135 on: July 01, 2020, 11:36:36 AM »
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1137332
You're meant to roleplay in a fantasy world, Braddicums, not live in one.


When it starts happening, you gonna apologize?
It takes considerable knowledge just to realize the extent of your own ignorance.

crkrueger

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« Reply #136 on: July 01, 2020, 11:55:15 AM »
Looks like a different group of people at asiansread are doing Al Qadim.  Looks like people of middle-eastern descent and a red headed British white chick who says she's an LGBTQ+PoC.
https://twitter.com/EvilCleverDog/status/1275111601776087041

Daniel Kwan and bunch have indeed moved on to L5R.
https://twitter.com/aznsrepresent/status/1276607143538556930
Even the the "cutting edge" storygamers for all their talk of narrative, plot, and drama are fucking obsessed with the god damned rules they use. - Estar

Yes, Sean Connery's thumb does indeed do megadamage. - Spinachcat

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"Tangency Edition" D&D would have no classes or races, but 17 genders to choose from. -TristramEvans

Rhiannon

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« Reply #137 on: July 01, 2020, 12:08:44 PM »
Quote from: hedgehobbit;1137006
It's a podcast of two people that are, to the surprise of no one, making a BDSM RPG called Honey and Hot Wax. Oh, and they, of course, were nominated for a 2019 Ennie award.


Where did you get that information? The podcast hosts are Daniel Kwan and Steve Dee, neither of them are involved with Honey and Hot Wax from what I can see in the credits here. Clio Yun-Su Davis appears to be the only person of east asian descent listed, at best perhaps she was a guest on the podcast?

Kwan seems to be mainly working on a rpg about Canadian soliders in WWI.

Armchair Gamer

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« Reply #138 on: July 01, 2020, 12:08:49 PM »
This is one of the reasons I went all-in on the Paladin: Warriors of Charlemagne Kickstarter, above and beyond interest in the subject itself: I strongly suspected that in the present environment, it wasn't likely to make it past the initial launch and print run.

Tom Kalbfus
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« Reply #139 on: July 01, 2020, 12:13:13 PM »
We need our own 3.5 fantasy setting using OGL to compete with the ones trying to be woke.

estar

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« Reply #140 on: July 01, 2020, 12:20:47 PM »
Correct if I am wrong but doesn't the hobby's interest in Asian fantasy stem from US and Europe learning about and appreciating films and shows originating in Japan and Hong Kong? Starting in the 70s and picking up steam in the 80s?

I was looking at some popular media lists and noticed that many tropes and stock characters that RPGs were using first appeared in films originating in Japan, Hong Kong, and other Asian countries.

Usually the scenario that is painted is one where something western become popular and overwhelms local culture. But I distinctly remember this being a case where things originating in Asia becoming popular within our culture. Not just fantasy but a lot of things that were done in film and manga.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2020, 12:32:41 PM by estar »

Melan

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« Reply #141 on: July 01, 2020, 12:41:45 PM »
Quote from: CRKrueger;1137389
Looks like a different group of people at asiansread are doing Al Qadim.  Looks like people of middle-eastern descent and a red headed British white chick who says she's an LGBTQ+PoC.
https://twitter.com/EvilCleverDog/status/1275111601776087041

Daniel Kwan and bunch have indeed moved on to L5R.
https://twitter.com/aznsrepresent/status/1276607143538556930


There are people out there who will be surprised by this development. Let that sink in.

"B-but we gave them crummy old Oriental Adventures!"
Now with a Zine!
ⓘ This post is disputed by official sources

Rhiannon

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« Reply #142 on: July 01, 2020, 12:43:50 PM »
Quote from: RPGPundit;1137289
As others pointed out, the real answer here is that if you want historically and culturally accurate Asian settings for D&D, which I agree would be utterly awesome, you should do as I did for Europe (and, for that matter, India) and WRITE a historically and culturally accurate setting.

On the other hand if what you want is to show off your totalitarianism through book banning, then what you ought to do is go fucking find someone to beat you to death to the great benefit of humanity.

Well that has been done to a degree for 5e with the Unbreakable adventure collection.

Like Bedrock I did listen to a bit of the podcast and they made some reasonable points but also seemed to often over-reach to find offense to me. Also many of these supporters seem to be uncritically reading Said's Orientalism which has come under a lot of critique from other expert academics in the field for its historical errors, rather monolithic approach and lack of nuance (e.g. Simon Leys). This is the issue with reading one trendy book and not reading more widely, including the reasoned responses to that book.

I think the podcast also suffered as they didn't seem to have anyone on with a strong background on Japanese history, film and literature although Kwan did display more knoweldge than most and clearly knows a lot about China (believe he may be studying its history or is a teacher).

I think one of the strongest criticisms is with the honour system, OA seems to base most of the honour system on Bushido and applying that code to an entire society is pretty silly. It would be like enforcing the chivalric code on everyone in a European fantasy setting.

And while I liked OA when I first read it in the 80s I do now think it would have been better to not take the typical D&D kitchen-sink approach and kept it focused more on a Japanese-based setting, which is what it largely draws on, rather than mashing it together with more Chinese elements.

It's surprising to see this push to have the book removed as the hosts of the podcast even discussed things they liked in the book and were thinking of nicking for play.

But I guess this illiberal attitude is a common stance with the current generation unfortunately, even if it does seem to be in retreat more recently.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2020, 12:47:06 PM by Rhiannon »

jhkim

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« Reply #143 on: July 01, 2020, 12:49:20 PM »
Quote from: estar;1137393
Correct if I am wrong but doesn't the hobby's interest in Asian fantasy stem from US and Europe learning about and appreciating films and shows originating in Japan and Hong Kong? Starting in the 70s and picking up steam in the 80s?

I was looking at some popular media lists and noticed that many tropes and stock characters that RPGs were using first appeared in films originating in Japan, Hong Kong, and other Asian countries.

Usually the scenario that is painted is one where something western become popular and overwhelms local culture. But I distinctly remember this being a case where things originating in Asia becoming popular within our culture. Not just fantasy but a lot of things that were done in film and manga.
At the time in the early 1980s, I think the majority of Americans were familiar only with the U.S. derivatives, not with the Hong Kong and Japanese originals. i.e. A lot more people watched "Green Hornet" or "Kung Fu" on TV than watched the Shaw Brothers movies on video. There was some cross-over, like Bruce Lee in Enter the Dragon (produced by Warner Brothers) or Jackie Chan in The Big Brawl -- but I think the vast majority of exposure was through American sources. You had to go to specialty shops in order to find the originals. Years later, in the early 1990s, I remember going down to New York Chinatown in order to find videos of original Hong Kong movies, which I couldn't find in regular outlets.

Armchair Gamer

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« Reply #144 on: July 01, 2020, 12:53:16 PM »
Quote from: jhkim;1137404
At the time in the early 1980s, I think the majority of Americans were familiar only with the U.S. derivatives, not with the Hong Kong and Japanese originals. i.e. A lot more people watched "Green Hornet" or "Kung Fu" on TV than watched the Shaw Brothers movies on video. There was some cross-over, like Bruce Lee in Enter the Dragon (produced by Warner Brothers) or Jackie Chan in The Big Brawl -- but I think the vast majority of exposure was through American sources. You had to go to specialty shops in order to find the originals. Years later, in the early 1990s, I remember going down to New York Chinatown in order to find videos of original Hong Kong movies, which I couldn't find in regular outlets.

  In Dragon #315 (the "Campaign Classics" issue), the Kara-Tur section has a sidebar where Jeff Grubb reminisces about how Zeb Cook was one of those who actually did track down the original material in specialty outlets--no mean feat for a man in rural Wisconsin in the mid-80s! And he held viewing parties for the TSR staff to expose them to it.

  Broadening their horizons? Or cultural appropriation? ;)
« Last Edit: July 01, 2020, 01:27:04 PM by Armchair Gamer »

Lynn

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« Reply #145 on: July 01, 2020, 01:05:44 PM »
So much of the argumentation by these particular SJWs seems to derive from their sense of ownership over history and historic material, and that individuals with a race or ethnic or familial history somehow 'own' it and can deny others use or even comment of it. It fits very neatly into the same cluster of SJW nonsense like cultural appropriation (invented ownership), an obsession primarily of -Americans.
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Rhiannon

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« Reply #146 on: July 01, 2020, 01:07:53 PM »
I'd say Japanese samurai films seem like the biggest influence on the actual writing of OA, rather than US b-movies like American Ninja or The Octagon.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2020, 01:10:17 PM by Rhiannon »

oggsmash

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« Reply #147 on: July 01, 2020, 01:24:10 PM »
Quote from: jhkim;1137404
At the time in the early 1980s, I think the majority of Americans were familiar only with the U.S. derivatives, not with the Hong Kong and Japanese originals. i.e. A lot more people watched "Green Hornet" or "Kung Fu" on TV than watched the Shaw Brothers movies on video. There was some cross-over, like Bruce Lee in Enter the Dragon (produced by Warner Brothers) or Jackie Chan in The Big Brawl -- but I think the vast majority of exposure was through American sources. You had to go to specialty shops in order to find the originals. Years later, in the early 1990s, I remember going down to New York Chinatown in order to find videos of original Hong Kong movies, which I couldn't find in regular outlets.

   Those hong kong movies played every Friday Night night at 8 pm and 10pm where I grew up in the south.  From what I read in OA, it is most definitely the movie Shogun, Shaw brothers movies, and kurasawa movies.  There are other influences (the american view of ninja for instance) but those three are certainly big influences.

   So I do not know about the majority of the country, but I can tell you every 5th grade male I knew, watched Black Belt theater every Friday night.   I do not even think VHS was very widespread then.    If the small town I lived in, in the south had it available, I think you may be underestimating how much exposure those movies got in the country.  I do know who ever wrote That book definitely watched them, and Kung Fu as well, but the influence is undeniable.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2020, 01:28:12 PM by oggsmash »

oggsmash

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« Reply #148 on: July 01, 2020, 01:29:27 PM »
All this is simply Critical theory now coming to games.  It has jack to do with offensive, because the whole point of critical theory is to find offensive in any existing structure, period.

jhkim

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« Reply #149 on: July 01, 2020, 01:36:00 PM »
Quote from: jhkim;1137404
At the time in the early 1980s, I think the majority of Americans were familiar only with the U.S. derivatives, not with the Hong Kong and Japanese originals. i.e. A lot more people watched "Green Hornet" or "Kung Fu" on TV than watched the Shaw Brothers movies on video. There was some cross-over, like Bruce Lee in Enter the Dragon (produced by Warner Brothers) or Jackie Chan in The Big Brawl -- but I think the vast majority of exposure was through American sources. You had to go to specialty shops in order to find the originals. Years later, in the early 1990s, I remember going down to New York Chinatown in order to find videos of original Hong Kong movies, which I couldn't find in regular outlets.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1137407
In Dragon #315 (the "Campaign Classics" issue), the Kara-Tur section has a sidebar where Jeff Grubb reminisces about how Zeb Cook was one of those who actually did track down the original material in specialty outlets--no mean feat for a man in rural Wisconsin in the mid-80s! And he's hold viewing parties for the TSR staff to expose them to it.

  Broadening their horizons? Or cultural appropriation? ;)
Why not both? ;)

But seriously, that's cool about Zeb Cook. Again, I support Oriental Adventures remaining in print, and I don't think the authors should be called out as bigots. At the same time, that doesn't mean that I can't criticize OA and the choices they made.