I've seen this argument a lot, especially in regards to Next.  There is this pervasive argument that any attempt by Next to emulate AD&D (or B/X or even 3e for that matter) is purely nostalgic, and not based on good design.

Needless to say, I disagree.  I certainly resent people telling me that the elements I like from AD&D are only because of nostalgia.  Not every new rendition of something is better, and we have tons of examples that back this up.

For instance, New Coke sucked.  Windows Vista was horrible compared to Win XP.  The new Chevy Camaro's design, while intentionally meant to emulate the first generation Camaro from 1967-1969, wasn't solely for nostalgia.  It's a better design than the late 1990s Camaro regardless.

So why does this argument not only persist, but is so rampant?

Or am I way off, and in fact Next's AD&D-type elements* are not better designed than 4e, but nothing more than nostalgia?

*what I mean by this are no dependancy on grid based combat, faster paced combat, less reliance on skills and/or power cards, and being able to fit an entire character on one side of one piece of paper.

90% plus of game design is crap, and that includes all versions of D&D.

Stop being insulted, play the stupid game you want to play and leave the whining to others.

No offense, but you're not the type of person I put a whole lot of weight behind for commentary in this context.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;663915No offense, but you're not the type of person I put a whole lot of weight behind for commentary in this context.

Please take this with the offense it's intended- but I put *no* weight behind *anything* you write.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;663913and being able to fit an entire character on one side of one piece of paper.

I agree with what you're saying but is this really a good yardstick to measure things by? What if someone just has really small writing or something, or uses bigger pieces of paper.

Quote from: gleichman;663916Please take this with the offense it's intended- but I put *no* weight behind *anything* you write.

Thank you for illustrating why I said what I did.

Quote from: The Traveller;663917I agree with what you're saying but is this really a good yardstick to measure things by? What if someone just has really small writing or something, or uses bigger pieces of paper.

That phrase is really meant to represent the fact that you have very little in the way of managaing stats and data, not literally how small can you write.  For example, it's often used in the context of OD&D or B/X, where all you had for your character was name, class, level, hit points, AC, abilities, saving throws, and equipment.  You didn't have a full page of skills, a page full of powers, four different AC's depending on scenarios, a dozen blocks of info just for each weapon, etc.

Sacrosanct, I don't think you were around for that shitstorm: http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=14215

But basically, that's it: it's 2003 again, with a good splash of 1980s "my game is more 'realistic' than yours" and a sprinkling of post-Forge "System Matters" thrown in for good measure. The more things change . . .

Quote from: Benoist;663926with a good splash of 1980s "my game is more realistic than yours" thrown in for good measure.

If you're going to make this a thing, fuckwit, I will reciprocate.

I'm not kidding: it feels like the RuneQuest marketing has a second life lately. And that really isn't anything new.

Sorry if that offends you - it's just the truth.

Quote from: Benoist;663926The more things change . . .

As a card carrying member of the OSR, your use of the phrase is quite self-defining I think. If you game in the past, expect the past to find you.

Myself, I never left the 80s. So the same old debates are expected to me, all that changed is that I'm the only one on my side

Damn, gleichman returning in full pills with booze style after a week of silence.

Quote from: gleichman;663936Myself, I never left the 80s.

If it was only true. I'll help you find the tires for the Delorian, I promise.

Quote from: The Traveller;663928If you're going to make this a thing, fuckwit, I will reciprocate.

And now, a rebus:



+



It's not aimed atcha, Traveller.

I shall save this thread however!

Accusing someone of nostalgia is just a pointless argument that's being cast as you run out of other meat to throw around.

That said, there is certainly an element of nostalgia when it comes to gaming, or perhaps more importantly, familiarity, as with all things. After a few years, you either get used to the faults and stop seeing them as much, or you get a divorce. It's a way for someone on one extreme verge of the discussion to basically toss the table in the air and leave in a huff.

Of course, the argument also has the opposite in "nil novi sub sole".

Quote from: Benoist;663931I'm not kidding: it feels like the RuneQuest marketing has a second life lately. And that really isn't anything new.

Sorry if that offends you - it's just the truth.

You got your ass kicked up and down the internet in the realism discussion. That doesn't give you licence to shit up every other thread with your butthurt. My advice is to get a grip on yourself and stop disrupting the site.

Your call, of course.

Quote from: gleichman;663936As a card carrying member of the OSR, your use of the phrase is quite self-defining I think. If you game in the past, expect the past to find you.

True. That shouldn't be surprising. I guess what's ironic is that on that side of things itself, history just seems to repeat itself: we have some enthusiasm about the original game and AD&D, and a few years later, some vocal minority pops up and talks about "realism" and how their games should just you know, "not be D&D." I'm not spiteful about it: I just think there's an interesting parallel at work here.

Quote from: The Traveller;663940You got your ass kicked up and down the internet in the realism discussion.

I know it's your way to rub your butthurt in my face after you ipso facto capitulated by talking complete nonsense on the thread, so I thank you.

Quote from: The Traveller;663940You got your ass kicked up and down the internet in the realism discussion. That doesn't give you licence to shit up every other thread with your butthurt. My advice is to get a grip on yourself and stop disrupting the site.

Quote from: Benoist;663944I know it's your way to rub your butthurt in my face after you ipso facto capitulated by talking complete nonsense on the thread, so I thank you.

Can you two please get a room so the rest of us can have a thread?