Well, that is sort of my issue.
Pcs thrive on on growth, it's one of the secrets of RPGs....will this system you are proposing allow a character to get better at persuasion by persuading, or better at detecting lies by hearing liars?

Quote from: LordVreeg;666598Well, that is sort of my issue.
Pcs thrive on on growth, it's one of the secrets of RPGs....will this system you are proposing allow a character to get better at persuasion by persuading, or better at detecting lies by hearing liars?

I think S'mon is focusing on his cool new books, but I'll add some other things along these lines.  Persuasion would be a Charisma check and Detecting Lies would be a Wisdom check.  One may add level as a modifier, using the difference as the total modifier.  This would work particularly well in a set first to third level range campaign.

I didn't expand upon using save throws in non-combat, since my comment was long enough, but condensing save throws into the level range would also bring further aspects of leveling into the condensed range campaign.  Renaming the save throws to more general terms would help for the campaign focus, and it is easy to add new save throws.

Since applying level as a description of campaign world rather than character as a campaign ruled option in AD&D or similar wasn't part of S'mon campaign concept, I don't thing I will expand upon it here with these elements.

These are all just mechanical nuances, though.  I've played plenty of straight-up Gygax AD&D with encompassing non-combat adventures.  Lots of investigation type campaigns and so on....  So, while I have mentioned ideas in this thread, I don't think such modifications are needed, though I have done many of these on different occasion to bring uniqueness to a campaign.  I thought that I should state that clearly.

Quote from: Kuroth;666606I think S'mon is focusing on his cool new books, but I'll add some other things along these lines.  Persuasion would be a Charisma check and Detecting Lies would be a Wisdom check.  One may add level as a modifier, using the difference as the total modifier.  This would work particularly well in a set first to third level range campaign.

I didn't expand upon using save throws in non-combat, since my comment was long enough, but condensing save throws into the level range would also bring further aspects of leveling into the condensed range campaign.  Renaming the save throws to more general terms would help for the campaign focus, and it is easy to add new save throws.

Since applying level as a description of campaign world rather than character as a campaign ruled option in AD&D or similar wasn't part of S'mon campaign concept, I don't thing I will expand upon it here with these elements.

These are all just mechanical nuances, though.  I've played plenty of straight-up Gygax AD&D with encompassing non-combat adventures.  Lots of investigation type campaigns and so on....  So, while I have mentioned ideas in this thread, I don't think such modifications are needed, though I have done many of these on different occasion to bring uniqueness to a campaign.  I thought that I should state that clearly.

agreed, agreed...
and every game is different.  But I bring it up as a point of, 'focus'.  When combat is a focus, PCs gain experience for slaying or defeating them.

The games I like, they gain experience for pursuading, or detecting, or portraying, etc, and if that is the focus, I know from experience the PCs will be for invested if they gain from succesfully using these abilities.

Quote from: LordVreeg;666613agreed, agreed...
and every game is different.  But I bring it up as a point of, 'focus'.  When combat is a focus, PCs gain experience for slaying or defeating them.

The games I like, they gain experience for pursuading, or detecting, or portraying, etc, and if that is the focus, I know from experience the PCs will be for invested if they gain from succesfully using these abilities.

No doubt about it. Players love feeling like their character is growing from in game activities whatever they may be.  You do make a good point about switching the focus away from condensing or limiting level range to focusing instead on character leveling.  Way back in the day, I began providing experience in AD&D for achievement in a campaign, whatever those achievements may have been.  I explained it back in the day to the more the war-game side of the table as defeating/slaying problems.

Quote from: Kuroth;666619No doubt about it. Players love feeling like their character is growing from in game activities whatever they may be.  You do make a good point about switching the focus away from condensing or limiting level range to focusing instead on character leveling.  Way back in the day, I began providing experience in AD&D for achievement in a campaign, whatever those achievements may have been.  I explained it back in the day to the more the war-game side of the table as defeating/slaying problems.

that makes sense.

i morphed from AD&D as well.  I went skill based, but created a system where the pcs and NPCs keep experience in each skill.  and instead of a balnket system, more advanced skills are sub skills of parent skills, sneak is the parent for backstab, backstab the prerequisite for Assassinate...
So the starnge thing is the characters become what they play.  I have had so many characters change course based on what they start needing to do.

http://celtricia.pbworks.com/w/page/31274097/What%20Type%20of%20Game%20is%20GuildSchool%20Made%20For

Quote from: LordVreeg;666620that makes sense.

i morphed from AD&D as well.  I went skill based, but created a system where the pcs and NPCs keep experience in each skill.  and instead of a balnket system, more advanced skills are sub skills of parent skills, sneak is the parent for backstab, backstab the prerequisite for Assassinate...
So the starnge thing is the characters become what they play.  I have had so many characters change course based on what they start needing to do.

http://celtricia.pbworks.com/w/page/31274097/What%20Type%20of%20Game%20is%20GuildSchool%20Made%20For

These are elements that I'm enjoying in my present Space Master campaign.  If all else failed back in the day to help everyone enjoy gaining experience from a broad range of activities, I would draw the more rule focused player to the Assassin Spy Table and show how well it conforms to the Experience Point Value Table.  Good old rules lawyering method of introducing elements. ha

Quote from: Kuroth;666587It is good to read that you haven’t tossed your side project.  

For hit points you may want to just have them rolled like ability score 3d6 initially.  Another way to look at it, since it is a first to third level campaign, the characters could use their constitution score as hit points at first level, with constitution multiplied by two for second level and constitution multiplied by three for third.

To have PCs want to avoid combat and to keep it quick & deadly, I'm using regular 1st level hit points, except you get at least half max at 1st level (d8 > min 4 hp from die, adjusted by CON mod). Most NPCs will be 'Normal Men' with 1 to 4 hp depending on role, eg a small child or old woman would have 1 hp, a mostly sedentary princess gets 2 hp, levy soldiery might have 3 hp, while the royal guardsmen have 4 hp.

But I'm using AD&D 'unconscious at 0, die at -10'; with Basic D&D damage ranges you almost never get an instant kill (even STR 18 guy with 2-handed sword maxes at 13 damage; though if he had a +1 sword he could potentially do 14 dmg and cut a 4 hp enemy soldier in half with one blow).
0 to -2 hp unconscious but stable, below -2 hp it requires a first aid WIS check or healing magic to stabilise, so characters at -8 or -9 hp will still often die.

I'm quite excited by Moldvay Basic's potential to run a game where 1st level enemies like 1 hd Orcs are scary threats, and a 3rd level Swordmaster Fighter is a holy terror. I will be house-ruling a bit on magic, eg:
1) Elves use the Cleric spell list to make them more Tolkienesque, I think I'll let them turn undead likewise - "Elves do not fear the ghosts of Men".
2) Magic-Users who start play with 'Read Magic' as their spell can begin with 1st level spell scrolls, at 50gp/scroll.

Edit: I'll award XP for non-combat stuff of course, and advancement geared to a typical Moldvay rate of 3-5 sessions/level, so most PCs would get to 2nd or 3rd level over a 6-12 session campaign.

Quote from: LordVreeg;666598Well, that is sort of my issue.
Pcs thrive on on growth, it's one of the secrets of RPGs....

I guess that's why no one ever played Traveller.
IME pre-3e D&D players are fine with d20 attribute checks that don't change with level. Level becomes a measure of social status, plus whatever hit points represent - divine favour or skill at not dying.

I'm running my Moldvay Basic/Game of Thrones game on 4th August!
http://www.meetup.com/London-DnD/messages/boards/thread/35841432/#104476632

Quote from: S'mon;666684To have PCs want to avoid combat and to keep it quick & deadly, I'm using regular 1st level hit points, except you get at least half max at 1st level (d8 > min 4 hp from die, adjusted by CON mod). Most NPCs will be 'Normal Men' with 1 to 4 hp depending on role, eg a small child or old woman would have 1 hp, a mostly sedentary princess gets 2 hp, levy soldiery might have 3 hp, while the royal guardsmen have 4 hp.

But I'm using AD&D 'unconscious at 0, die at -10'; with Basic D&D damage ranges you almost never get an instant kill (even STR 18 guy with 2-handed sword maxes at 13 damage; though if he had a +1 sword he could potentially do 14 dmg and cut a 4 hp enemy soldier in half with one blow).
0 to -2 hp unconscious but stable, below -2 hp it requires a first aid WIS check or healing magic to stabilise, so characters at -8 or -9 hp will still often die.

I'm quite excited by Moldvay Basic's potential to run a game where 1st level enemies like 1 hd Orcs are scary threats, and a 3rd level Swordmaster Fighter is a holy terror. I will be house-ruling a bit on magic, eg:
1) Elves use the Cleric spell list to make them more Tolkienesque, I think I'll let them turn undead likewise - "Elves do not fear the ghosts of Men".
2) Magic-Users who start play with 'Read Magic' as their spell can begin with 1st level spell scrolls, at 50gp/scroll.

Edit: I'll award XP for non-combat stuff of course, and advancement geared to a typical Moldvay rate of 3-5 sessions/level, so most PCs would get to 2nd or 3rd level over a 6-12 session campaign.

Defining stages of negative hit points seems like a good ruling to support the danger of combat, while trying to provide some survivability at 1st level too, with the recoverable knock-out rule.  These type of modifications are less likely to shock players too, since they are extensions of the rules that are in place, rather than whole areas of additional rulings.  I have learned my lesson on doing that! ha

I figured you would have the experience aspect all set.  I sometimes slack when projecting what level a group of characters may be at some future point in a campaign.  I suppose I greet them as they are, with the adjustment for level a part of the impromptu element of reffing.


Something I have done in very minimalist AD&D 1 was encourage players to attempt stunts and various flourish maneuvers, with ability checks to succeed.  If the character succeeded in their flourish, they would gain a bonus to hit, damage, defense, move or other action.  It helps give low level characters modifiers from options dreamed up by the players.  If the character didn’t manage the flourish by failing the check, the attack maneuver would proceed as normal, without a negative or positive modifier for the final action, unless there was very clear reason to apply one.  So, it encourages attempts, while not generally penalizing failed attempts.  So, it supported player creativity, without ignoring character luck, and it didn’t penalize characters for lack of player creativity.  

Something on occasion I bring into these streamlined games are requests for players to select two contacts that the character knows in the setting world at character creation, either by a random list or purely their imagination.  I found it supported the low combat or dangerous combat side of the game, since it brought a focus upon who the character knew as much as the other statistics, which is important in strategic campaigns.  

In those streamlined campaigns, I also often did not include the thief class, allowing all characters to attempt thief abilities using the standard (Full), difficult (2/3), challenge (1/3) ability checks in various combinations.  Alternatively, I have requested players select a number of thief abilities based upon their character’s dexterity ability at character creation.  Modifying this for Moldvay’s edit, characters would select 1 thievies’ ability at dexterity 7, gaining the full list at 13.

Very cool to see you have the game lined up!  I was planning for my Space Master game while writing about these D&D approaches here.  Good stuff.

Quote from: S'mon;666685I guess that's why no one ever played Traveller.
IME pre-3e D&D players are fine with d20 attribute checks that don't change with level. Level becomes a measure of social status, plus whatever hit points represent - divine favour or skill at not dying.

well, actually, back in the day, that was actually my theory why it never totally took off.  Traveller is a great game, and I ran it back in the 80s for a while, but all my pcs liked it only in short doses, due to the lack of character growth.

And I agree, since my gaming started back in the 70's, about the differences in edition and how PCs dealt with the game.  But having written reams about what each edition was written and designed to do, I actually think this may be wrong.

The earliest games were written based around dungeon exploration; and then adventuring as more of a whole (with outdoors, etc), and then AD&D added more campaign level fiddly bits.  This is a very simplified version, but these are the types of games these rules were written for.  Pre 3e players were actually fine when the skills they were using for the type of game were playing went up by level; not just Hit Points.  Gaining spells and better saves and thieving skills, etc were also gained by levels, and later sub-class stuff and then gaining men at arms, building a level and class specific demesne.

I have gone way too far into this, you understand...Vreeg's First Rule, and Corollaries.

"Vreeg's first Rule of Setting Design,
"Make sure the ruleset you are using matches the setting and game you want to play, because the setting and game WILL eventually match the system."

Corrollary to Vreeg's First Rule.
"The amount of rules given to a certain dimension of an RPG partially dictate what kind of game the rules will create. If 80% of the rulebook is written about thieves and the underworld, the game that those rules are meant for is thieving and skullduggery. If 80% of the mechanics are based on combat, the game will revolve around combat.

Multiply this by 10 if the reward system is based in the same subject area as the proponderance of rules."

2nd Corrollary.
"Character growth is the greatest reinforcer. The syntheses of pride in achievement with improvement in the character provides over 50% of the reinforcement in playing the game. Rules that involve these factors are the most powerful in the game."

3rd Corrollary
"The rules are the physics engine of the setting, Crunch models Fluff. As rules are the interface between the setting and the player's actions, Houseruling is a constant process of creating a rule for a setting-specific event to formalize it. This is a process to be welcomed and enjoyed, as it only comes from the expansion of the players into the setting. Talk to them about it and formalize it with them if you have any doubts."

I think what you are planning is good, and I agree with the feel based on what you ay with the low level focus.  What are the highest level NPCs you plan on using?

Quote from: Kuroth;666695Something on occasion I bring into these streamlined games are requests for players to select two contacts that the character knows in the setting world at character creation, either by a random list or purely their imagination.  I found it supported the low combat or dangerous combat side of the game, since it brought a focus upon who the character knew as much as the other statistics, which is important in strategic campaigns.  

That's a good idea thanks, I may have each player create a senior NPC contact as part of character creation, although those would be left offstage. Hm, I think maybe the best think would be to let players start with Normal Man NPC retainers as permitted by their CHA, I have a pack of NPC cards from Paizo and players could select cards to represent their retainers, and name them on the back. I think that would work well to quickly generate a mini court of characters.

Quote from: LordVreeg;666715I think what you are planning is good, and I agree with the feel based on what you ay with the low level focus.  What are the highest level NPCs you plan on using?

Most people level 0, exceptional NPCs 1st-3rd level, rare 'Heroes' 4th-7th level, a few legendary Super Heroes were 8th+ level. Basically B2 Keep on the Borderlands demographics.

Initially in session 1 the highest level NPCs will be 3rd level, eg the Lord of Westguard is an F3 Master Swordsmen. If it goes long-term I'm thinking the devil-worshipping BBEG Baron Victor Beldon would be 6th level and probably the highest level NPC in the campaign area. No 8th+.

While Pendragon is set up as a knight-oriented game (at least, in its later editions), I mention it because a knight actually does a lot of things in the game not directly related to combat; and because it would be (I think) quite easy to adapt to more general and non-combat-centric RPG.  Particularly a socially-focused "quasi-medieval" game along the lines of the Game of Thrones setting.

My development on the Basic D&D game is going well, having great fun working off Rob Conley's baseline - http://asongofswords.blogspot.co.uk/
Got lots of good ideas from this forum (not just this thread) - see eg the Play Tips post. If the one-shot is not disastrous I think this definitely has potential for a shortish campaign, say 6 sessions over 12 weeks/3 months.