Why not have both?

For some things people pay in coin. But for others they pay in barter. And the barter could be tasks rather than trading goods.

The merchant will trade you that suit of armour if you will guard his caravan to the next town. The potion maker will hand over one or more potions of healing if you go into the monster haunted forest to collect some ingredients.

Or the dreaded barter chain. The merchant will give you the sword if you can get the potion of heroism from the alchemist who wants some blue mushrooms from creepy farmer Jones who needs some graveyard moss collected at midnight... But you have to persuade the specter hanging out at the grave to let you, but it wont unless you fix its headstone so it can rest peacefully.

Or the party ends up helping facilitate the barter between two other parties. Showing the "behind the scenes" daily life the PCs usually arent privy to. A farmer needs help collecting or transporting eggs to pay off the baker.

People still use coins to pay for things. It is easier to transport in your pocket than a chicken... But barter is going on regularly.

Quote from: Omega;836575Why not have both?

A great suggestion, people used all sort of monetary systems and barter, combining them and whatnot.

I'm doing currently research on medieval Mali for my master's thesis, and the sheer magnitude of different trade goods and coinage used along the Niger River and the surrounding lands is staggering.

The pastoralists would use cattle, and sometimes slaves, as their main unit of barter, having a barter economy that was independent of any state. Having a good that didn't encumber you while moving was imperative to their lifestyle.

Then there was gold, which was mainly exported and didn't really have much use in the economy as coinage - it was a trade good to be sold off for the northern Arab markets.

Salt was another hugely important good. The great loss of salt through perspiration in the southern jungles made a food supplement of salt the key to keeping healthy. Salt was worth MORE than gold, pound for pound, in some places.

When trade with India started through Portuguese intermediaries, imported Indian cowry shells became such a priced good of such relatively uniform character that they became almost universal as coinage - without any central government to back up their value! Human ingenuity is boundless.

As a side note: What's the most common currency in Somalia? Somali Shillings, a currency officially not tied to any government and with no national bank behind it since the collapse of the state in the early nineties. The simple facts of human habit and practicality means the Shillings just stayed in circulation though having, in traditional economic sense, literally no value.

Wouldn't cowrie shells, like gold, have an intrinsic value based on its popularity across tribes, nations, or cultures for jewelry or ornamentation so that no government backing is required?

One of the many bits of period trivia in Neal Stephenson's books in The Baroque Cycle is his mention of the value of cowrie shells dropping suddenly due to news of the arrival of a trade fleet from India carrying a huge quantity of shells. Something that should probably happen with gold or gems in many a D&D town whenever a successful party of adventures returns from robbing tombs.

From a quick glance at free market exchange rates for the Somali shilling the value against the dollar seemed to take a huge nose dive after it lost government backing and a glut of counterfeit bills were produced. More recently a central bank was established and the rate of exchange seems to have returned to pre civil war levels or better. So it's not like the loss of government backing didn't have a drastic effect on value. But then it's not like natural diamonds have any intrinsic value over artificial diamonds. People are not especially rational about economic matters.

Quote from: Bren;824417One practical effect is it's feasible for wandering PCs to carry around 100 gold coins. Unless they are sheep herding nomads or a wagon train caravan the other forms of wealth are going to have to be traded, given away, or abandoned before they move on.

More to the point, what if you travel somewhere where your gold has no value?
Having 100 gold in an England-like location would be impressive wealth, but Mayans would just shrug and ask again how you were going to pay...

I've seen salt and rice used, as they were historically, as alternatives for wealth. One of the better alternatives I saw, used seashells as a form of currency (the occupants were *NOT* easy to kill, so it's a form of money all the PC's came to respect).

The other players have wondered if I was simple in the head, since I often spent gold buying property, businesses, and livestock in our campaigns, rather than a shiny +2 new magic weapon. Then the villains came to kill us one night, and the townspeople alerted me (not the rest of the party), since they didn't want "Daddy Warbucks" to die...

Quote from: Novastar;836848The other players have wondered if I was simple in the head, since I often spent gold buying property, businesses, and livestock in our campaigns, rather than a shiny +2 new magic weapon. Then the villains came to kill us one night, and the townspeople alerted me (not the rest of the party), since they didn't want "Daddy Warbucks" to die...

Investing your loot gives you the chance that your invested gold will earn you more gold. It has the disadvantage that crops can fail, shops and factories can burn down, and invested loot loses its liquidity.

Being tied into the social network of the setting can be an advantage, as you mentioned, as well as a plot hook for further adventures focused on defending and expanding one's holdings. Of course in some settings and depending on their social class, characters may not be able to buy land or run a business.

Oriental Adventures had some nice uses of that too. The land-owning characters wealth was not just coin, and a bad year could diminish your total wealth.

Quote from: Omega;836952Oriental Adventures had some nice uses of that too. The land-owning characters wealth was not just coin, and a bad year could diminish your total wealth.

Sounds like Pendragon.

Or Flashing Blades (1984) which included purchase prices and rates of return for different types of land e.g. farms, orchards, and vineyards and other investments.

Quote from: Bren;836970Or Flashing Blades (1984) which included purchase prices and rates of return for different types of land e.g. farms, orchards, and vineyards and other investments.

Anybody recall if Bushido covered this? Another great FGU game. Seems like it should if it doesn't have rules for this stuff. Love Flashing Blades; in fact I have a copy of it here in my bag at work as I type this as I am thinking about trying to use it for a game set in el Siglo de Oro.

I've been looking up salaries for Shi during the Song dynasty and a lot of it is a blend of cash and goods. For example the dean of an academy in one instance has a monthly salary of 100 strings of cash and 2 piculs of rice. In some cases I'm also getting sections of land, firewood and clothing listed.

Yes, I've had various settings and situations where barter or deals of various types were mainly how arrangements were negotiated. Also, games set in cultures where a lot of gifting and hospitality is done (e.g. Celtic), where one gains honor by gifting generously, but return gifts or favors or service or sacrifices are expected sooner or later, or on certain holidays, etc.

I find that these sorts of exchanges and situations, whether limited or taking up most or even all of the trade (for example in settings which have no real abstract currency, such as post-apocalypse or other practical situations), can be very interesting and attention-getting. They can make people think about the actual value and use and rarity and need for items, instead of having numeric values and nearly-unlimited supply assumed. Even in games where currency is used for most things, there are always some sorts of transactions that aren't monetary, and those can be pretty interesting, particularly because different things have different value to different people, and some things are unique or have certain consequences that can't be absolutely valued (such as performing a task, unique/rare items, information, allegiance, gratitude or blackmail situations).

It does call for a pretty strong GM to support such things. If not, a crafty player can get a not-so-prepared GM off balance. :-)

Heres the OA entry on Barter.

QuoteIrregular Currency and Barter:
Coins may or may not be minted. If they are, they are often irregular
in size and shape. Coins from foreign lands are used without prejudice. All coins are only worth the amount of precious metal they contain. Paper money is useless.
Goods and services are often bought by barter. There are often semi-fixed units of barter - a sheep is known to be worth so much, a horse has a general value, etc. The bushels of rice a man harvests or collects in a year are seen as personal worth since he can use these to buy things. However, since items of barter are unwieldy to carry around, written contracts are often made, the buyer signing over a certain portion of his harvest to be collected at a later date. Thus, a man's wealth is measured by the goods he owns, the goods he can make or grow, and the contracts he holds. Legal systems are designed to enforce the honoring of contracts and the fulfillment of obligations.

Pure Barter:
A man's wealth is measured purely by the goods he owns and can trade for other things. This is most common in the uncivilized lands. Contracts are generally not drawn up (either written or verbal). Purchases are made by giving the seller something of equal value. Haggling is a must, since nothing has a set value. The value of any item is only set by how much the buyer is willing to give and how little the seller will accept. Legal systems are generally not very formal. A man's reputation as an honest dealer, cheat, simpleton, liar, or hard bargainer greatly influence how much people are willing to pay or receive from him.

A sheep or goat was worth 3 tael. 5-6 bussels of rice was 5 ch'ien (About 50 tael). and so on.

Quote from: Matt;836977Anybody recall if Bushido covered this?

Not particularly; I was in a Bushido run for a while, and I don't recall the price list/economic system taking up as much as a page.

I will have to check my Bushido later...I can't recall at all but sounds like you would know better than I.

Now I want to re-read "Mushashi" and play Bushido.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;836979I've been looking up salaries for Shi during the Song dynasty and a lot of it is a blend of cash and goods. For example the dean of an academy in one instance has a monthly salary of 100 strings of cash and 2 piculs of rice. In some cases I'm also getting sections of land, firewood and clothing listed.

How often would the goods exceed what the person hired could personally use? That might have occurred because it shielded both parties from fluctuations in the prices of things that they would need to buy anyway.

In D&D, characters might be more inclined to barter if the value of the gold they were offered was less certain - fixed prices in the rulebook and goods always available undercut a barter economy. (Although the important economy in D&D is generally non-coin, with the experience point being the measure of value.