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Pen & Paper Roleplaying Central => Pen and Paper Roleplaying Games (RPGs) Discussion => Topic started by: Daedalus on July 07, 2010, 09:31:50 PM

Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: Daedalus on July 07, 2010, 09:31:50 PM
According to a post on rpg.net a third edition of Nobilis has been written and is in the process of being playtested:

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=524514

I admit I had the second edition and well it looked good I wasnt sure how to go about playing it or even how to run it.

Is anyone planning to pick up the new edition?  And can anyone explain the game to me?
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: Zachary The First on July 07, 2010, 09:40:38 PM
I doubt it could improve upon the second edition (http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/imagenes_manuscrito/manuscrito151.jpg).

Sorry, latent snark coming to the surface.

I just didn't have much luck with it.  I found the prose near-impenetrable and labored.
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: thedungeondelver on July 07, 2010, 10:03:24 PM
Unhelpful of me, never mind.
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: Lawbag on July 08, 2010, 02:21:20 AM
Let's hope this news of a 3rd edition is some troll having a joke...
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: StormBringer on July 08, 2010, 04:08:23 PM
Quote from: Zachary The First;392493
I doubt it could improve upon the second edition (http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/imagenes_manuscrito/manuscrito151.jpg).

Sorry, latent snark coming to the surface.

I just didn't have much luck with it.  I found the prose near-impenetrable and labored.
I lurves me some Nobilis.  Especially the GWB.  But it could definitely stand to be streamlined, no question.

If you pull out the mechanical/gaming bits, it really isn't that complicated or overwrought.  Essentially, compare your relevant score to the target number and add miracle points until you beat it.  That's really all there is to it.  Obviously, contested tasks have each side adding miracle points until someone wins, so not really more complicated there.

Why they needed 300pgs in an odd sized format to get that down doesn't matter.   It's a fucking gorgeous book.
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: thedungeondelver on July 08, 2010, 04:48:36 PM
Quote from: StormBringer;392645
It's a fucking gorgeous book.


So's the Mekton Plus Tech Manual - it's still an abortion of a gaming book >:P
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: StormBringer on July 08, 2010, 04:53:20 PM
Quote from: thedungeondelver;392653
So's the Mekton Plus Tech Manual - it's still an abortion of a gaming book >:P
Yeah, but Mekton is a cheesy anime giant robot game.  Clearly, you are still in diapers if you play that.  Nobilis is designed for discriminating tastes, and if I may say, sophisticated gaming habits.

:D
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: Daedalus on July 08, 2010, 07:00:30 PM
Quote from: Lawbag;392515
Let's hope this news of a 3rd edition is some troll having a joke...


Nope, it has been varified by the author herself
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: Imperator on July 09, 2010, 02:52:59 AM
Stormy sums up my position nicely. Great game, difficult prose. With a rewriting to make it more accessible, it could do very well.
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: Benoist on July 09, 2010, 02:56:39 AM
Deswinification! :D
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: Ghost Whistler on July 09, 2010, 04:41:24 AM
This is clearly in the wrong forum.
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: Ian Absentia on July 09, 2010, 01:34:13 PM
Quote from: Imperator;392722
Stormy sums up my position nicely. Great game, difficult prose. With a rewriting to make it more accessible, it could do very well.
But it's not a REAL roleplaying game.  Off to the ghettos with this thread!

!i!

(P.S. I own the first two editions of Nobilis -- I'm not sure how I feel about a third.  If it is a clean presentation of the game itself, clearly delineated from the prose, I may bite.  As it stands, my favorite edition remains the Little Pink Book first edition.)
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: Lawbag on July 09, 2010, 01:45:55 PM
Without a doubt the 2nd edition is a beautiful looking game, but how much of that is down to author I don't know. The first edition looked more like a young girls novel “My First Period”.

The 2nd edition (which I own) is borderline unreadable. The prose is heavy and filled with litery minefields.

Its certainly the only rulebook I WOULD put on my coffee table.
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: thedungeondelver on July 09, 2010, 04:11:54 PM
Quote from: Lawbag;392810
Without a doubt the 2nd edition is a beautiful looking game, but how much of that is down to author I don't know. The first edition looked more like a young girls novel “My First Period”.

The 2nd edition (which I own) is borderline unreadable. The prose is heavy and filled with litery minefields.

Its certainly the only rulebook I WOULD put on my coffee table.


Big beer mugs?  or just a lot of them?
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: Daedalus on July 09, 2010, 07:36:34 PM
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;392727
This is clearly in the wrong forum.


Its a role playing game.  It's in the right place
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: thedungeondelver on July 09, 2010, 08:01:04 PM
Quote from: StormBringer;392657
Yeah, but Mekton is a cheesy anime giant robot game.  Clearly, you are still in diapers if you play that.  Nobilis is designed for discriminating tastes, and if I may say, sophisticated gaming habits.

:D


I know what you were going for there (and I salute you) but brother, you got that right.  Mekton with MTS was ... something, I tell you what.  Like Champions (nee Hero System) but...not good.
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: RPGPundit on July 10, 2010, 01:28:47 PM
Nobilis is one of the worst RPGs ever written; its a convoluted mess hiding an utterly mediocre beancounting system. Its also one of the most pretentious systems ever designed, where every page bleeds with the attitude that "this is for SPECIAL people, and if you don't actually "GET" it, you are one of the great unwashed" so all the Swine pretend to "get" it.
Its filth.

But it is an RPG, barely.

RPGPundit
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: RPGPundit on July 10, 2010, 01:31:00 PM
Also, I remember when Guardians of Order got the license to produce Amber 2e, and the whole project was sabotaged by fanatical Nobilis fans who came onto the Amber forums of the time, trying to convince the company that Amber 2e should be redone with Nobilis as its rules because of how superior and fashionable it was.

Now the worm has turned; Amber is hot again, and Nobilis is all but forgotten except in the minds of some of the superannuated Swine from RPG.net.
So I wonder if the Nobilis boards will be trolled by people arguing that Nobilis 2e should be remade on the basis of the clearly superior, longer-enduring, more successful Amber rules?

RPGPundit
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: Ghost Whistler on July 10, 2010, 03:27:54 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit;392972
Nobilis is one of the worst RPGs ever written; its a convoluted mess hiding an utterly mediocre beancounting system. Its also one of the most pretentious systems ever designed, where every page bleeds with the attitude that "this is for SPECIAL people, and if you don't actually "GET" it, you are one of the great unwashed" so all the Swine pretend to "get" it.
Its filth.

But it is an RPG, barely.

RPGPundit


whereas Hot War isn't.

Fail.
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: The Yann Waters on July 10, 2010, 05:19:46 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit;392974
Now the worm has turned; Amber is hot again, and Nobilis is all but forgotten except in the minds of some of the superannuated Swine from RPG.net.

Eh, this Nob 3e has been in the works for years now, although the project (and pretty much the entire company responsible for it) dropped off the radar for a while. After all, Eos Press originally announced the new book back in, what, '08?
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: RPGPundit on July 11, 2010, 01:38:49 PM
Quote from: GrimGent;393013
Eh, this Nob 3e has been in the works for years now, although the project (and pretty much the entire company responsible for it) dropped off the radar for a while. After all, Eos Press originally announced the new book back in, what, '08?


So while Amber continues running strong like it did back in the days before and during the nobilis Fad, the nobilis people can't even get their act together to do their sequel?

Did I mention there's at least THREE Amber-inspired games in the works?

Revenge is sweet.

RPGPundit
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: Ian Absentia on July 11, 2010, 01:44:32 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit;393098
Did I mention there's at least THREE Amber-inspired games in the works?
Ho-hum.  Be sure to drop me a line when any one of them sees publication.

!i!
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: The Yann Waters on July 11, 2010, 01:54:33 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit;393098
So while Amber continues running strong like it did back in the days before and during the nobilis Fad, the nobilis people can't even get their act together to do their sequel?

Those "people" have kept changing again, apparently, which explains at least some of the inconsistency. Not only is Nob up to its fourth publisher, but the current company seems to have gone through some reorganization effort from the ground up soon after 3e was announced.

It's not a sequel, by the way. During the days of the original announcement, Eos Press mostly talked about a kind of a reprint compilation which would bring together material from the live-action supplement as well, in a more traditional book format. Based on these recent snippets and tidbits, though, this genuinely is a new edition, based on the same setting material but completely rewritten in every respect, including the rules. Heck, half of the attributes are different from the previous editions.

(In an earlier thread, Moran described one of the new attributes, Treasure, like this: "Treasure's your kit, your panoply, your regalia, your bling. It's your armies and your treasures. It's the wealth generated by the cultivation of your Estate. It's the iconography of your depictions in the classical literature, where you're shown with four arms and big ears and breathing fire because photography was not so advanced back then, and in one hand there's a knife, and in another there's a thorn, and in another yet your PDA, and a mirror in the fourth; and your hair's tied back with a net scented of apples and sweet rose, and your skin gleams with rare oils, and trapped inside your eye is your beloved, where Lord Entropy cannot find them, and chained to your belt are the winged horrors of your making; all these things exactly as they ought to be, and yet the clerk at the 7-11 squints at your picture, fore and back, as if wondering if you really are the person that your ID proclaims." In other words, it's a resource stat which effectively replaces what used to be Realm in 2e.)
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: Ian Absentia on July 11, 2010, 03:58:09 PM
You're only encouraging him, dear.

!i!
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: thedungeondelver on July 11, 2010, 05:33:00 PM
Quote from: GrimGent;393102


(In an earlier thread, Moran described one of the new attributes, Treasure, like this: "Treasure's your kit, your panoply, your regalia, your bling. It's your armies and your treasures. It's the wealth generated by the cultivation of your Estate. It's the iconography of your depictions in the classical literature, where you're shown with four arms and big ears and breathing fire because photography was not so advanced back then, and in one hand there's a knife, and in another there's a thorn, and in another yet your PDA, and a mirror in the fourth; and your hair's tied back with a net scented of apples and sweet rose, and your skin gleams with rare oils, and trapped inside your eye is your beloved, where Lord Entropy cannot find them, and chained to your belt are the winged horrors of your making; all these things exactly as they ought to be, and yet the clerk at the 7-11 squints at your picture, fore and back, as if wondering if you really are the person that your ID proclaims." In other words, it's a resource stat which effectively replaces what used to be Realm in 2e.)


I just threw up in my mouth.
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: J Arcane on July 12, 2010, 01:16:20 AM
You know, I'd really love to see a game about playing gods and the interaction between, but so far every fucking one of them is pretentious shite I wouldn't touch with a barge pole.

Too much Neil Gaiman, not enough Classical Greek.  Pretty typical for nerds, sadly.
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: RPGPundit on July 12, 2010, 03:03:52 AM
Quote from: Ian Absentia;393099
Ho-hum.  Be sure to drop me a line when any one of them sees publication.

!i!


Are you doubting that they will?
Do you really think that Durall & co. are going to have taken the money from their "ransom" deal and flee to Costa Rica with it?
Do you really think that Wick isn't going to self-publish his game?
Do you think that, 157 pages into writing, I'm suddenly going to stop what I'm doing for anything short of death or a TARDIS key; and that once I present him with it and he pays me considerable amounts of money for it after publicizing it through his company (something he's already done) Brett Bernstein won't go ahead and publish it?

The chance that any ONE of these projects won't see the light of day is pretty fucking slim, the chance of two of them failing to do so is infinitesimal, and the chance of all 3 failing it is essentially impossible (barring global-level catastrophe), because I'm writing one of these.

RPGPundit
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: RPGPundit on July 12, 2010, 03:09:49 AM
Quote from: GrimGent;393102

(In an earlier thread, Moran described one of the new attributes, Treasure, like this: "Treasure's your kit, your panoply, your regalia, your bling. It's your armies and your treasures. It's the wealth generated by the cultivation of your Estate. It's the iconography of your depictions in the classical literature, where you're shown with four arms and big ears and breathing fire because photography was not so advanced back then, and in one hand there's a knife, and in another there's a thorn, and in another yet your PDA, and a mirror in the fourth; and your hair's tied back with a net scented of apples and sweet rose, and your skin gleams with rare oils, and trapped inside your eye is your beloved, where Lord Entropy cannot find them, and chained to your belt are the winged horrors of your making; all these things exactly as they ought to be, and yet the clerk at the 7-11 squints at your picture, fore and back, as if wondering if you really are the person that your ID proclaims." In other words, it's a resource stat which effectively replaces what used to be Realm in 2e.)


Goddamnit that woman can't write worth shit. She is fucking hell-bent for leather in her determination to be the most incomprehensible producer of byzantine unbearable drivel in the entire hobby.

I knew a lot of people like that, mostly over-eager full-of-themselves college- undergrads that grew out of it, but a few that never did. They talk not so that they can communicate, but for the express purpose of being misunderstood, so that they can get wood over how clever they are, what with being so wordy and pseudo-intellectual that they can't actually say anything successfully at all. Yeah, because that's just infinitely useful for anything other than stroking their own dicks. :rolleyes:

RPGPundit
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: RPGPundit on July 12, 2010, 03:16:17 AM
Quote from: J Arcane;393162
You know, I'd really love to see a game about playing gods and the interaction between, but so far every fucking one of them is pretentious shite I wouldn't touch with a barge pole.

Too much Neil Gaiman, not enough Classical Greek.  Pretty typical for nerds, sadly.


If it helps, in my current Lords of Olympus project, I'm trying to stay very true to the classical sources (not in the sense of running around in Togas with BBC-accents, but in the real sense of the gods being a gang of fairly petty bastards with relatively little pretentiousness, except for the ones for whom "pretentiousness" is their thing, and in those cases its a cause for mockery).

In my versions of the Primordials (which I've already finished with, the Titans and Olympians are still in progress), Morpheus is a melodramatic twat (there's some gaiman-revenge for you); Eris is not the hippie trickster who is doing it for the Lolz, she's a motherfucking  MONSTER; Nemesis is a remorseless killing machine; and Momus spends a lot of his time these days writing on Internet Forums.

RPGPundit
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: J Arcane on July 12, 2010, 04:41:00 AM
Quote
Do you really think that Wick isn't going to self-publish his game?


In all fairness, Wick has pretty well demonstrated himself to be a fucking crooked motherfucker.
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: The Yann Waters on July 12, 2010, 06:32:29 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit;393195
Goddamnit that woman can't write worth shit.

Bah, humbug: if nothing else, her whimsical prose style fits in perfectly with the intended ambience in Nobilis. But there's no arguing over taste, naturally enough, and we've already gone over this same ground many, many times before.
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: thedungeondelver on July 12, 2010, 08:39:36 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit;393195
Goddamnit that woman can't write worth shit. She is fucking hell-bent for leather in her determination to be the most incomprehensible producer of byzantine unbearable drivel in the entire hobby.

I knew a lot of people like that, mostly over-eager full-of-themselves college- undergrads that grew out of it, but a few that never did. They talk not so that they can communicate, but for the express purpose of being misunderstood, so that they can get wood over how clever they are, what with being so wordy and pseudo-intellectual that they can't actually say anything successfully at all. Yeah, because that's just infinitely useful for anything other than stroking their own dicks. :rolleyes:

RPGPundit


See, in that vile spew, the loserette is trying to deconstruct standard RPG terms (come on, if someone tried to explain "treasure" as being what she says it is to my 12 year old self when I was playing some basic D&D I'd tell her to gtfo) and slap new definitions on them to redefine things and make them "theirs".  It's hilarious, it's utterly, utterly ineffective, but it's transparently obvious that's what she's doing.

It's like if she said "armor class" was "A concept, a thought, it's how you feel about protection, it's the gleam of love and hate all wrapped up in honey and scented with Prince Machiavelli cologne, it's where you hide your true inner feelings all the time hoping Lord Entropy doesn't give you an ennui wedgie."

blaaaaaaaar I can't believe I tried to do that.

But you get where I'm going with that.
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: thedungeondelver on July 12, 2010, 08:40:37 AM
Quote from: GrimGent;393226
Bah, humbug: if nothing else, her whimsical prose style fits in perfectly with the intended ambience in Nobilis.


That's like saying running in to the house holding a handful of dogshit and saying LOOK WHAT I ALMOST STEPPED IN is somehow OK.

:D
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: The Yann Waters on July 12, 2010, 09:27:28 AM
Quote from: thedungeondelver;393240
See, in that vile spew, the loserette is trying to deconstruct standard RPG terms (come on, if someone tried to explain "treasure" as being what she says it is to my 12 year old self when I was playing some basic D&D I'd tell her to gtfo) and slap new definitions on them to redefine things and make them "theirs".  It's hilarious, it's utterly, utterly ineffective, but it's transparently obvious that's what she's doing.

...Except that in this case, Treasure quite simply isn't used as a "standard RPG term" and doesn't stand just for some looted pile of gold pieces. Instead, it continues the game's tradition of highly setting-specific attributes: it really does represent "the wealth generated by the cultivation of your Estate", as that quote put it. That is, this stat controls the various riches and resources granted supernaturally by the aspect of reality that's been entrusted into the character's care. Like the other attributes, it's used to perform actual miracles. (The one example by Moran that I've seen had a PC's butler show up on an alien planet exactly at the right time for a quick escape.)
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: thedungeondelver on July 12, 2010, 09:41:26 AM
Quote from: GrimGent;393244
...Except that in this case, Treasure quite simply isn't used as a "standard RPG term" and doesn't stand just for some looted pile of gold pieces.


my point
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: The Yann Waters on July 12, 2010, 10:06:10 AM
Quote from: thedungeondelver;393246
my point

I'm not sure that makes any sense. The name of the attribute does refer to honest-to-goodness treasures, although they aren't the sort that adventurers might haul back from dungeon crawls in some other game. It's not a "deconstruction", just a slightly more abstract stat than "gold pieces carried."

In the current edition, more or less the same purpose is served by Realm which represents the characters' influence within the pocket universe governed by their (adopted) noble family: its miracles offer a kind of omnipotence but only inside the land's borders. Treasure would appear to be less firmly linked to those realms (Chancels, as they are called), allowing it to stand for, say, holdings and possessions even in the mortal world. It's probably going to put an end to one relatively common character type, "the Realm Guy" who can equip others when they head out into danger, but from what I can tell, the new attribute set will turn out to be more balanced than the one in 2e.
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: Ian Absentia on July 12, 2010, 10:54:14 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit;393193
Are you doubting that they will?
Yep. I'm not doubting anyone's good intentions (well, wait -- since you mentioned John Wick, maybe I am), but yeah.
Quote
...because I'm writing one of these.
That's so cute.

!i!
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: Ryan L. on July 12, 2010, 01:00:38 PM
Amber-inspired rpgs?

In what universe does fanboy mental masturbation put to paper count as the "Amber RPG LIVES ON!"

If D&D went out of publication 1990 and then Senzar came out would that make it D&D-inspired? And thus carrying on the torch of D&D.

Self-publishing an Amber-inspired game is about as pitiful as it gets.
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: The Yann Waters on July 12, 2010, 07:25:54 PM
Personally I have nothing against Amber or any current projects which might owe their inspiration to it. But it's a safe bet that as diceless gaming goes, Nobilis is still going to feature a more substantial system than any of those, especially judging by the way in which this upcoming edition appears to integrate mechanically various details which perhaps could have used a tad more crunch in 2e. Looking at the examples, for instance the new Bonds resemble freeform traits for bidding instead of acting passively as liabilities, and the Designs which earlier had no mechanical significance now come with concrete effects of their own, and mundane skills have been added to the core rules as separate from the lowest levels of the Aspect attribute.

It would be nice to know how that other new attribute, Persona, works in practice, but that'll no doubt come up again after the playtesting has been finished.
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: skofflox on July 13, 2010, 12:23:46 AM
I returned the 2ed. a day after purchasing.I traded it in for Stormbringer 4ed.

Thought the writing style a *bit* tedious.
I would be willing to take a look at another ed. if the writing was more succinct.

Is it  diceless style? I don't recall seeing any actual rules in the tome...love Amber system though!
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: RPGPundit on July 13, 2010, 12:25:18 AM
Quote from: Ryan L.;393288
Amber-inspired rpgs?

In what universe does fanboy mental masturbation put to paper count as the "Amber RPG LIVES ON!"

If D&D went out of publication 1990 and then Senzar came out would that make it D&D-inspired? And thus carrying on the torch of D&D.

Self-publishing an Amber-inspired game is about as pitiful as it gets.


You must really dislike the D&D clones, then...

RPGPundit
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: Saphim on July 13, 2010, 06:33:36 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit;393436
You must really dislike the D&D clones, then...

RPGPundit


Well to be fair... D&D clones are a giant waste of paper. Why play some clone when I can just get the original in various editions where is bound to be one to my taste?
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: Ryan L. on July 13, 2010, 08:34:20 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit;393436
You must really dislike the D&D clones, then...

RPGPundit


I would purchase a clone if you paid me. They are a waste of time and paper. The people that have written them would be better off doing something original.

But let's not focus on that because my real problem with your post is that somehow your derivative work is somehow keeping Amber alive. When in reality you aren't using the cosmos of Amber, because its illegal and the best you can do is something that is sort of kind of like Amber.
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: The Yann Waters on July 13, 2010, 09:33:32 AM
Quote from: skofflox;393435
Is it  diceless style? I don't recall seeing any actual rules in the tome...love Amber system though!
I like to describe it as a roll-over system that just happens to replace the dice with resource management: by way of comparison, 2e is roughly as crunchy as early Tri-Stat. Chapter 5 ("The Essence of Nobilis") summarizes the most central rules, Chapter 9 ("Attributes") elaborates on the basic resolution mechanics, and Chapter 13 ("Resolving Conflict") deals with confrontations between characters, including combat.

One major difference from Amber is that attributes are never compared directly. Simply put, each of the attributes (which in 2e are Aspect, Domain, Realm, and Spirit) has a rating which represents what the characters can accomplish effortlessly and a pool which measures how much further they can push themselves if necessary. Every action has a difficulty level, and as long as that doesn't exceed the relevant attribute rating, the character succeeds without any additional effort. If it does, however, then an increasing number of points must be expended from the pool associated with that particular attribute. When characters clash, it's those varying power levels of their individual actions that are compared in order to determine which one triumphs. In this way, the system doesn't actually reveal anyone's stats to others: you have no direct way of knowing, say, how high the Aspect of a swordsman you're duelling with is, only what kind of feats and stunts he's managed to pull off so far and what that may tell about his abilities.

It's worth noting that any action based on those attributes is considered miraculous. A character is allowed to perform one miracle per turn, as well as one mundane action, which by default are of the sort that any ordinary human being is capable of. Mundane actions are essentially equivalent to the (lowest) levels of Aspect, but they can fail arbitrarily and cannot be boosted with miracle points from the attribute pools. A mortal swordsman who ranks among the finest in the world could effectively fight at level 2 with swords, for example, but might fumble at the GM's whim. Miracles on the other hand absolutely never fail unless opposed by at least an equal force.
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: RPGPundit on July 13, 2010, 12:35:50 PM
Quote from: Saphim;393503
Well to be fair... D&D clones are a giant waste of paper. Why play some clone when I can just get the original in various editions where is bound to be one to my taste?


I generally agree, which is why I'm glad that apparently all three of aforementioned projects will be different from the Amber RPG and from each other. It brings new things to the table.

RPGPundit
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: RPGPundit on July 13, 2010, 12:39:01 PM
Quote from: Ryan L.;393515
I would purchase a clone if you paid me. They are a waste of time and paper. The people that have written them would be better off doing something original.

But let's not focus on that because my real problem with your post is that somehow your derivative work is somehow keeping Amber alive. When in reality you aren't using the cosmos of Amber, because its illegal and the best you can do is something that is sort of kind of like Amber.


It is keeping the area of the fandom that likes the style of Diceless RPG epitomized by Erick Wujcik's game alive, over the style epitomized by R. Sean Borgstrom (or whatever she calls herself these days).

Of the two, the fans of the latter monstrosity, during its very brief heyday of popularity, were declaring that it was the new definition of how to do Diceless, and that they would bury us.  Now, we're burying them.  We were around a decade and a half before they were, and we'll be around a decade and a half from now, thanks to these new games; and it has been clearly defined which type of game is the better Diceless RPG.

RPGPundit
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: RPGPundit on July 13, 2010, 12:43:00 PM
Quote from: GrimGent;393522
I like to describe it as a roll-over system that just happens to replace the dice with resource management: by way of comparison, 2e is roughly as crunchy as early Tri-Stat.


And about a million times more convoluted.

Quote
Chapter 5 ("The Essence of Nobilis") summarizes the most central rules, Chapter 9 ("Attributes") elaborates on the basic resolution mechanics, and Chapter 13 ("Resolving Conflict") deals with confrontations between characters, including combat.

One major difference from Amber is that attributes are never compared directly. Simply put, each of the attributes (which in 2e are Aspect, Domain, Realm, and Spirit) has a rating which represents what the characters can accomplish effortlessly and a pool which measures how much further they can push themselves if necessary. Every action has a difficulty level, and as long as that doesn't exceed the relevant attribute rating, the character succeeds without any additional effort. If it does, however, then an increasing number of points must be expended from the pool associated with that particular attribute. When characters clash, it's those varying power levels of their individual actions that are compared in order to determine which one triumphs. In this way, the system doesn't actually reveal anyone's stats to others: you have no direct way of knowing, say, how high the Aspect of a swordsman you're duelling with is, only what kind of feats and stunts he's managed to pull off so far and what that may tell about his abilities.

It's worth noting that any action based on those attributes is considered miraculous. A character is allowed to perform one miracle per turn, as well as one mundane action, which by default are of the sort that any ordinary human being is capable of. Mundane actions are essentially equivalent to the (lowest) levels of Aspect, but they can fail arbitrarily and cannot be boosted with miracle points from the attribute pools. A mortal swordsman who ranks among the finest in the world could effectively fight at level 2 with swords, for example, but might fumble at the GM's whim. Miracles on the other hand absolutely never fail unless opposed by at least an equal force.


Quite right. You've here described the entire boring mediocre utterly unremarkable not-in-any-way-revolutionary beancounter system. In two paragraphs.
Borgstrom, meanwhile, needs to expand that into thousands and thousands of paragraphs to say the exact same thing, filling her spaces with useless words, made up words, byzantine sentence structure, REALLY awful prose, twee pretentiousness, and a desperate desperate effort to pretend that Nobilis is so much more graceful and artistic and clever than it actually is.

RPGPundit
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: skofflox on July 13, 2010, 12:48:20 PM
Quote from: GrimGent;393522
I like to describe it as a roll-over system that just happens to replace the dice with resource management: by way of comparison, 2e is roughly as crunchy as early Tri-Stat. Chapter 5 ("The Essence of Nobilis") summarizes the most central rules, Chapter 9 ("Attributes") elaborates on the basic resolution mechanics, and Chapter 13 ("Resolving Conflict") deals with confrontations between characters, including combat.

One major difference from Amber is that attributes are never compared directly. Simply put, each of the attributes (which in 2e are Aspect, Domain, Realm, and Spirit) has a rating which represents what the characters can accomplish effortlessly and a pool which measures how much further they can push themselves if necessary. Every action has a difficulty level, and as long as that doesn't exceed the relevant attribute rating, the character succeeds without any additional effort. If it does, however, then an increasing number of points must be expended from the pool associated with that particular attribute. When characters clash, it's those varying power levels of their individual actions that are compared in order to determine which one triumphs. In this way, the system doesn't actually reveal anyone's stats to others: you have no direct way of knowing, say, how high the Aspect of a swordsman you're duelling with is, only what kind of feats and stunts he's managed to pull off so far and what that may tell about his abilities.

It's worth noting that any action based on those attributes is considered miraculous. A character is allowed to perform one miracle per turn, as well as one mundane action, which by default are of the sort that any ordinary human being is capable of. Mundane actions are essentially equivalent to the (lowest) levels of Aspect, but they can fail arbitrarily and cannot be boosted with miracle points from the attribute pools. A mortal swordsman who ranks among the finest in the world could effectively fight at level 2 with swords, for example, but might fumble at the GM's whim. Miracles on the other hand absolutely never fail unless opposed by at least an equal force.


Thanks for the great synopsis! I have seen other systems use a similar mechanic. I have toyed around with something in Amber that involves astrological aspects corresponding to narrative elements that result in a small pool of points that can influence ability scores etc...providing an edge or what have you. The idea of Astro. corres. effecting play came to me from 'The Highest Level of all Fantasy Roleplaying' which IMO has some awesome ideas.
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: The Yann Waters on July 13, 2010, 01:45:28 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit;393544
And about a million times more convoluted.
How so? You can't really trim the mechanics down much more without going freeform. "I have Domain (Cats) 4 and a Lesser Change is a level 6 miracle, so I need to spend two points to make this litter of kittens grow wings" isn't exactly rocket science.

Quote
Borgstrom, meanwhile, needs to expand that into thousands and thousands of paragraphs to say the exact same thing, filling her spaces with useless words, made up words, byzantine sentence structure, REALLY awful prose, twee pretentiousness, and a desperate desperate effort to pretend that Nobilis is so much more graceful and artistic and clever than it actually is.
Actually, the reason why the chapter on the attributes takes up thirty pages is that the book not only includes listings of what the difficulty levels between zero and nine can achieve in each case, but it also meticulously describes every single attribute rank one after another, with examples of the kind of characters who might possess that level of ability, details on its importance in the society of the Nobles, and discussions on its metaphysical nature and significance. To put it in another way, it's a little like having an extended analysis on the difference between Strength 1 and Strength 2, only more pertinent since the attributes themselves are so setting-dependent that they require a bit of explanation.
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: The Yann Waters on July 13, 2010, 01:49:36 PM
Quote from: skofflox;393546
I have seen other systems use a similar mechanic.

Well, next to straight-up stat comparison, variants on "spending effort" are probably the most commonplace diceless resolution mechanic out there these days. It wasn't quite as common back in the late '90s when Nobilis was originally written and published.

Incidentally, the examples of Nob 3e character stats over at Hitherby Dragons include this sheet (http://imago.hitherby.com/?p=3575) for Corwin from Amber. Of course, you can't really combine the two games without a clash of cosmologies, but still...

(The position of mundane abilities in the system wasn't really formalized before the Society of Flowers web supplements which led to the Superior Qualities seen here. How they differ in practice from these Skills hasn't been mentioned so far, though, and from what I hear even the Bonds can be actively used to gain an advantage in the new edition. The Afflictions seem to replace the old Handicaps, and apparently can now be activated by the GM to impose penalties of some sort. All in all, the Worldwalker Gift is the only completely familiar trait on the sheet aside from two attributes.)
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: thenorm42 on July 13, 2010, 03:22:25 PM
I'm looking forward to the 3rd Edition of Nobilis a lot. I think one of the main strengths of Nobilis is the guidance it gives you over what each of the levels of miracle can do. It's flexible enough to allow for almost anything, but precise enough that HG decisions can be justified. This is what makes me feel like I can HG it successfully.

Meanwhile, as cool-looking a game as Amber is, after reading it I don't feel like I know when circumstances should trump different levels of stat, or what it takes to switch a contest from being about Warfare to Psyche. This is compounded by it being inherently adversarial in its construction. Obviously, it's true to the books, but I feel it would take a GM with a will of steel to keep rulings fair and balanced between PCs.

The underlying system in Nobilis isn't earth-shatteringly revolutionary, but it is surprisingly finely balanced considering its high power level - 25 CPs is exactly the right place for starting characters, giving a wealth of difficult choices while still leaving room for them to grow during play.

The prose is unashamedly purple, but it captures a specific whimsical mood very well. It's like Marmite in that some love it and some hate it, though I don't quite understand why some people hate it quite so much. I sometimes wonder how well a cut-down version with the basic rules written in plainer English would do. Some of the sub-systems are a bit complicated, but not to an extreme extent once you get to know them.
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: RPGPundit on July 13, 2010, 09:23:10 PM
Quote from: GrimGent;393563
How so?


Convoluted in its presentation.

RPGPundit
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: Seanchai on July 14, 2010, 12:41:36 AM
Quote from: thenorm42;393583
I'm looking forward to the 3rd Edition of Nobilis a lot.


Me, too.

Seanchai
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: The Yann Waters on July 15, 2010, 07:37:38 AM
Quote from: thenorm42;393583
Some of the sub-systems are a bit complicated, but not to an extreme extent once you get to know them.

Looking at the character sheets of some 3e playtesters, I'm noticing quite a bit more mechanical complexity in parts of the game that are handled in a much looser freeform fashion in 2e. For instance, in 2e the details on heraldic Designs which connect Nobles to their Estates are largely symbolic and without crunch in themselves. In 3e, though?

"Keys: Key 1, Lotus Flower + Key 15, Oak

More than anything else, you are: Something Cool (+both Keys)

Your Estate is from:
Courage: Either Light or Beautiful (+Shadow either way)
Blades: Painful Side (+Heart of Lotus)

Your Estate is:
Courage: Something you live (+Shadow)
Blades: Something you can point to (+Heart of Oak)

You lived: a Humble Life (+Heart of Oak)
Legacy: Freedom! (+Heart of Lotus)

Contacts: Mortal Family (+Oak), Organization (+Lotus)

Affiliation: Light/Wild (+Shadow)

Totals: Heart of Lotus-4, Heart of Oak-4, Shadow-3"


Quote from: RPGPundit;393661
Convoluted in its presentation.

Not everyone appreciates a nothing-but-the-facts chemistry textbook approach to RPG writing. Again, tastes vary.
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: 1of3 on July 15, 2010, 11:16:49 AM
Intersting. Where did you get that?

And more important: What does it mean?
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: The Yann Waters on July 15, 2010, 01:33:48 PM
Quote from: 1of3;394047
Where did you get that?

From the Chancel Amyra information on the RPGnet wiki. The testplayers are still under an NDA which prevents them from explicitly explaining the quirks of the new system, and so for now any conclusions about how exactly these Heart and Shadow scores work have to be speculative at best. However, it does appear that the heraldic symbols on the Nobles' coats of arms can now provide mechanical advantages of their own, and that they touch on the characters' lives far more extensively than in 2e (where their practical uses are pretty much limited to sympathetic magic and communication through prayer).

Apparently the new chargen also includes the questionnaire elements that some folks have suggested earlier, in the form of Life and Legacy: what kind of an existence the characters led before Nobility and how that still affects them. And not only Bonds but also Afflictions seem to be bought with the same pool of points that's at least partially based on the Treasure attribute.
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: Rand Brittain on July 19, 2010, 01:10:57 PM
As a playtester, I can't really say anything except in general terms, but I can say that it's going to be difficult to describe Nobilis 3e as "pretentious" (although I'm sure someone will try)  but that those who dislike whimsy will be unlikely to enjoy the product. At some point Jane seems to have jacked Ianthe in an alley and stolen her narrator-stick, metaphorically speaking.
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: StormBringer on July 19, 2010, 01:25:23 PM
Quote from: Rand Brittain;394867
As a playtester, I can't really say anything except in general terms, but I can say that it's going to be difficult to describe Nobilis 3e as "pretentious" (although I'm sure someone will try)  but that those who dislike whimsy will be unlikely to enjoy the product. At some point Jane seems to have jacked Ianthe in an alley and stolen her narrator-stick, metaphorically speaking.
I am looking forward to 3rd edition, but I will always love my GWB.

And hey!  It's Rand Brittain!  I am sensing another mass migration from tBP in the works.
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: Rand Brittain on July 19, 2010, 01:34:27 PM
I don't really "migrate," I just don't post everywhere very often. Lately, of course, I've been playtesting more than posting, trying to see how far I could stretch the character creation system and such. (We play over IRC, so it's generally troublesome to try and do character creation during an actual session if you want to get anything else done.)

So far I'm fairly pleased with the changes to the mechanics. Persona, as Dr. Moran has mentioned, is a replacement for Spirit that actually does spirited things instead of just being a sort of passive numinous glory. Treasure isn't quite a replacement for Realm but it does a lot of things people tended to end up using Realm to accomplish. The basic mechanics haven't particularly changed, but there have been all kinds of tiny tweaks. I think they're mostly all improvements, although the new Bonds system is going to need some really good explication so that people can understand how far you can stretch it, or it might be in danger of being treated like 2e Bonds and languishing a bit.
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: StormBringer on July 19, 2010, 01:46:29 PM
Quote from: Rand Brittain;394872
I don't really "migrate," I just don't post everywhere very often.
There appears to be an influx of new members around here, so I am guessing it is from tBP, as I don't really scan the member list over there for a comparison.
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: Rand Brittain on July 19, 2010, 01:56:49 PM
I think when someone on RPG.net mentions theRPGSite, there's a sort of wave of attention as people who visited once a while back return for a minute to see if anything interesting has happened since they left. This time there was a mention because we finally banned CavScout (as opposed to just throwing him out of Tangency), and someone brought up his history (I think CavScout was the one) as the person who managed to get banned from the site that was formed around not banning people.

Then the Pundit says something, and the people who don't find his persona amusing/endearing/whatever leave again, until the planets align once more.
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: StormBringer on July 19, 2010, 02:01:06 PM
Quote from: Rand Brittain;394872
Lately, of course, I've been playtesting more than posting, trying to see how far I could stretch the character creation system and such. (We play over IRC, so it's generally troublesome to try and do character creation during an actual session if you want to get anything else done.)

So far I'm fairly pleased with the changes to the mechanics. Persona, as Dr. Moran has mentioned, is a replacement for Spirit that actually does spirited things instead of just being a sort of passive numinous glory. Treasure isn't quite a replacement for Realm but it does a lot of things people tended to end up using Realm to accomplish. The basic mechanics haven't particularly changed, but there have been all kinds of tiny tweaks. I think they're mostly all improvements, although the new Bonds system is going to need some really good explication so that people can understand how far you can stretch it, or it might be in danger of being treated like 2e Bonds and languishing a bit.
Ok, enough de-railment, back to the topic.  :)

Sounds like they have a pretty good handle on what needs to be streamlined and clarified.  I am looking forward to this even more.  Without breaking the NDA, can you say how easy it will be to convert characters, Chancels and other tidbits between the editions?
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: Rand Brittain on July 19, 2010, 02:07:22 PM
I wouldn't say it was hard, but given that two whole attributes have new functions now it might just be simpler to rebuild the character under 3e's design assumptions in order to get the feel you want. I mean, I guess you could just swap Realm and Spirit for Treasure and Persona, but it's not like it takes three hours to build a character if you already have the concept. I found that a lot of characters from 2e I wanted to build differently in 3e because of the options I now had, so conversion as such wasn't an issue for me.

Chancel and Imperator Properties are quite different now, to the point that what they used to be doesn't really exist anymore. I think I prefer the new system, since I usually forgot about Imperator properties and how NPCs should have them anyway.
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: The Yann Waters on July 19, 2010, 03:09:22 PM
Quote from: StormBringer;394869
I am sensing another mass migration from tBP in the works.

I seem to recall that Pundit's antipathy towards Nobilis was the original reason why I registered here in the first place. Someone has to speak for the underdog, I guess.

Quote from: Rand Brittain;394872
The basic mechanics haven't particularly changed, but there have been all kinds of tiny tweaks.

From Moran's comments over at RPGnet, wounds, contested actions, and the immunity to direct miracles have all been adjusted somewhat in 3e.

Quote from: Rand Brittain;394882
Chancel and Imperator Properties are quite different now, to the point that what they used to be doesn't really exist anymore.

They are now "less like 90's-style Merits and Flaws", apparently.
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: One Horse Town on July 19, 2010, 03:13:07 PM
Welcome Rand!
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: Rand Brittain on July 20, 2010, 11:34:14 AM
Quote from: GrimGent;394892
They are now "less like 90's-style Merits and Flaws", apparently.


Character-sheet frontloading is a common trait in Dr. Moran's recent games (and plenty of other writer's games, as well), where what you put on your character sheet says specific things about what you want to see in the game and what your character thinks is important.
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: J Arcane on July 20, 2010, 11:41:05 AM
Heh heh heh.

"Dr. Moran".

*snicker*
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: Rand Brittain on July 20, 2010, 12:08:11 PM
Jenna Moran is a Doctor of Computer Science with a degree from Johns Hopkins University. It's correct and polite to refer to her by her title if you don't want to call her by her first name. Also it gives me an excuse to refer to her as "the Doctor," which I find funny.
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: J Arcane on July 20, 2010, 01:00:36 PM
Quote from: Rand Brittain;395055
Jenna Moran is a Doctor of Computer Science with a degree from Johns Hopkins University. It's correct and polite to refer to her by her title if you don't want to call her by her first name. Also it gives me an excuse to refer to her as "the Doctor," which I find funny.


I think you missed half the joke.

Not that it was anything but a juvenile one to begin with.
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: Rand Brittain on July 20, 2010, 01:02:43 PM
No, I understood the joke. There was a reason we all kept on talking about Borgstromancy instead of Moranomancy after the Doctor changed her name.
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: thenorm42 on March 08, 2011, 08:01:26 AM
Just thought I'd mention - 333 copies of Nobilis 3rd edition are now available for pre-order from http://www.eos-sama.com (payment by Paypal I believe). They're shipping in late March / early April, but you get the PDF immediately! I've got mine, I'm particularly digging the new take on Hell.
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: Daedalus on March 08, 2011, 10:12:55 AM
Quote from: thenorm42;444577
Just thought I'd mention - 333 copies of Nobilis 3rd edition are now available for pre-order from http://www.eos-sama.com (payment by Paypal I believe). They're shipping in late March / early April, but you get the PDF immediately! I've got mine, I'm particularly digging the new take on Hell.


Does it look anything like New Jersey?  I kid
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: Daedalus on March 08, 2011, 10:14:31 AM
Quote from: Rand Brittain;395055
Jenna Moran is a Doctor of Computer Science with a degree from Johns Hopkins University. It's correct and polite to refer to her by her title if you don't want to call her by her first name. Also it gives me an excuse to refer to her as "the Doctor," which I find funny.


I call Medical Doctors doctor and they are the only ones.  I have no problem with Nobilis but if Jenna Moran thinks I should call her doctor, she has another thing coming to her.  

Oh and pick a fucking name and stick with it
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: Rand Brittain on March 08, 2011, 11:56:57 AM
Quote from: Daedalus;444592
I call Medical Doctors doctor and they are the only ones.  I have no problem with Nobilis but if Jenna Moran thinks I should call her doctor, she has another thing coming to her.


Most people who are not as formal as I call her Jenna. She seems to prefer it!

Quote
Oh and pick a fucking name and stick with it


Do you know, I think she has?

Anyway, I've received my copy of the PDF. It's quite pretty! Not all the art is to my taste, and some of it is sort of bad, but there are a lot of pretty pieces. The rules, of course, have all the improvements I saw from the playtest which people will probably be talking about soon.
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: The Yann Waters on March 08, 2011, 06:11:27 PM
Quote from: thenorm42;444577
They're shipping in late March / early April, but you get the PDF immediately!

The local gaming store over here should have the book available by May, according to their site, so I'll wait until then. Who knows, maybe it'll in some small way help to persuade them that there's a market for the game.
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: Simlasa on March 08, 2011, 07:12:50 PM
I never had much interest in Nobilis but borrowed a copy because a lot of folks were comparing it to The Whispering Vault... which I love. The similarities seem tenuous though... at least from what I read of it... and I haven't heard of anyone running Nobilis as a horror RPG.
Could you run it as a Dukes of Hell/Inferno sort of affair?


Quote from: Daedalus;444592
I call Medical Doctors doctor and they are the only ones.
When I worked at a toxicology lab we always laughed at the 'little doctors', our name for the medical guys. There were a bunch of PhDs in our group, who disliked being called 'doctor'... but the medical fellows, who were not PhDs (not 'true' doctors)... insisting that THEY be called 'doctor'.
So I don't call anyone 'doctor' these days... except for my friend... who IS 'young Dr. Jones'.
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: Pseudoephedrine on March 08, 2011, 07:41:09 PM
The best thing Nobilis ever did for me was get me to begin work on a diceless resolution mechanic for a RPG that wasn't just dick-size comparisons. I ended up abandoning the project to pursue other things, but the core system remains intact and I can throw it up sometime.

It involved using various kinds of techniques to adjust a number up or down with the targets varying based on how difficult the task was and what you wanted to accomplish (up was a mutual win-win, down was a first-past-the-post winner). Techniques were exhausted once used, but some techniques would refresh themselves or others if you used them in exchange for a less drastic adjustment of the number. This was gonna be used for a game set in the world of Buddhist myth where you play holy warriors and monks journeying around defeating demons.
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: hgjs on March 08, 2011, 09:59:31 PM
Quote from: thenorm42;444577
Just thought I'd mention - 333 copies of Nobilis 3rd edition are now available for pre-order from http://www.eos-sama.com (payment by Paypal I believe). They're shipping in late March / early April, but you get the PDF immediately! I've got mine, I'm particularly digging the new take on Hell.

By chance I ended up with a free copy of the PDF.  I had tried to purchase with credit card (I am fond of PDF/print bundles), but it turns out that although Eos Press had put up a form they weren't actually able to process credit card payments, just PayPal (note to self, get a new credit card number).  So my order was cancelled, but as consolation everyone in my situation was sent a free copy of the PDF.

While I won't complain about getting something for free, having read the book I have no particular desire to ever own it in print.
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: hgjs on March 09, 2011, 12:33:39 AM
Random initial impression: the "life path" section is really bad.
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: RPGPundit on March 09, 2011, 04:01:36 PM
Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;444729
The best thing Nobilis ever did for me was get me to begin work on a diceless resolution mechanic for a RPG that wasn't just dick-size comparisons.


Oh yeah, right; instead it was a completely mediocre bean-counting system.  Because we all know chartered accountancy is so much more fun than chess.

RPGPundit
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: Pseudoephedrine on March 09, 2011, 04:12:54 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit;444891
Oh yeah, right; instead it was a completely mediocre bean-counting system.  Because we all know chartered accountancy is so much more fun than chess.

RPGPundit


What, Nobilis's system? I hated it, but it's just dick size contest where you choose how many pumps of the fist you get before measuring. My goal with my own system was to introduce something like tactical complexity and unpredictability beyond "I spend two points for a total of five," "I spend three points for a total of five."
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: Rand Brittain on March 09, 2011, 06:28:20 PM
It seems more akin to a poker game, since you know what your opponent is playing but not what he still has in his hand, and have to consider how much of your power you can afford to put forth at the moment and how much you might need later.

3e is a bit more generous in letting you regain MP as you go along, so you can spend a bit more than you could in 2e, but there's still a fair amount of play in the resource management.
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: Pseudoephedrine on March 09, 2011, 09:24:02 PM
Is it still trivially easy to be immune to all physical harm and the powers of others?
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: One Horse Town on March 09, 2011, 09:35:51 PM
Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;444981
Is it still trivially easy to be immune to all physical harm and the powers of others?


More importantly, is it still trivially easy to be put off by a promising premise that is ruined by endless pages of flowery prose (ha, pun!) that has no discernible purpose other than to make the author think they are awfully clever?
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: Rand Brittain on March 09, 2011, 10:10:38 PM
Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;444981
Is it still trivially easy to be immune to all physical harm and the powers of others?


Powers are no longer immune to direct alteration by miracles- that's been replaced by a wounds system. Immortality is still buyable, but it's no longer absolute, so now being immortal only means that killing you is tiresome and expensive.

Quote
More importantly, is it still trivially easy to be put off by a promising premise that is ruined by endless pages of flowery prose (ha, pun!) that has no discernible purpose other than to make the author think they are awfully clever?


I loved the prose, so at the very least it had two purposes!

Anyway, the tone of the third edition is much different. I wouldn't call it flowery at all.
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: Lorrraine on March 09, 2011, 11:56:26 PM
I have read the first 102 pages of the PDF. Sometime Thursday I will start reading the actual rules since everything so far has served as setting/background. I found the prose readable and not overly flowery. That said 100+ pages seems like a pretty steep buy in for GMs let alone players before you even get to character creation.

I do like that Nobilis appears to have sold 200+ copies in the first 24 hours because it helps to prove that Diceless RPGs can sell. Obviously I'm really looking forward to Lords of Olympus and Lords of Gossamer and Shadow.
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: thedungeondelver on March 10, 2011, 12:00:57 AM
Quote from: Lorrraine;445012
I do like that Nobilis appears to have sold 200+ copies in the first 24 hours because it helps to prove that Diceless RPGs can sell. Obviously I'm really looking forward to Lords of Olympus and Lords of Gossamer and Shadow.


While Nobilis strikes me as being a horrible, horrible game, I guess it's a good thing that any given non-Wizards of the Coast RPG can sell 200 copies in a day - although that's probably damn close to critical mass, yeah?
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: Simlasa on March 10, 2011, 12:19:48 AM
After reading the circle-jerk around Nobilis on RPGnet for... how long now? Often by people who had often only heard of it...  I'm not surprised it could sell 200 copies that fast.
What might be more impressive is if 200 people actually end up playing it.
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: hgjs on March 10, 2011, 12:57:51 AM
Quote from: Lorrraine;445012
That said 100+ pages seems like a pretty steep buy in for GMs let alone players before you even get to character creation.


Speaking of GMs, the book doesn't seem to have advice in it for running a game.  I'm guessing that will appear in one of the upcoming supplements you mention.
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: StormBringer on March 10, 2011, 01:31:15 AM
Quote from: Lorrraine;445012
I have read the first 102 pages of the PDF. Sometime Thursday I will start reading the actual rules since everything so far has served as setting/background. I found the prose readable and not overly flowery. That said 100+ pages seems like a pretty steep buy in for GMs let alone players before you even get to character creation.
According to my GWB (signed by the artists, as I am fond of mentioning), you can "create" a character starting around page 45.  But you won't really be ready to play until about page 175.

Kids these days, and their mere 100 pages before character creation.  :)
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: StormBringer on March 10, 2011, 01:33:56 AM
Quote from: thedungeondelver;445016
While Nobilis strikes me as being a horrible, horrible game...
That is because you are a horrible, horrible person.  ;)

Quote
I guess it's a good thing that any given non-Wizards of the Coast RPG can sell 200 copies in a day - although that's probably damn close to critical mass, yeah?
I am a big fan, and even I would have to agree with this assessment.  If they break 750-1000 in the next year, it would come as something of a surprise.
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: Jason Coplen on March 10, 2011, 03:05:58 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit;393195
Goddamnit that woman can't write worth shit. She is fucking hell-bent for leather in her determination to be the most incomprehensible producer of byzantine unbearable drivel in the entire hobby.

+1 fucking million!

Books looks great? Check.
Book is readable? Only if you're into masochism. Her prose makes me shrivel and want to die. It's worse than a 13 year old writing fanfic.
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: The Yann Waters on March 10, 2011, 05:07:46 AM
Quote from: hgjs;445026
Speaking of GMs, the book doesn't seem to have advice in it for running a game.  I'm guessing that will appear in one of the upcoming supplements you mention.

Yah. It was already revealed quite a while ago over at the RPGnet threads that, unlike the second edition which dedicated roughly a quarter of its page count specifically to GM advice, the third edition wouldn't have that, or a sample scenario for that matter. This book is meant to function as a standalone game, but it does say "Volume 1" on the cover, after all.
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: Qwilion on March 10, 2011, 08:23:56 AM
How can something be a stand alone game if when I pick it up for the first time never having played Noblis, I don't know how to run it, and you don't bother to teach me?
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: The Yann Waters on March 10, 2011, 08:44:25 AM
Quote from: Qwilion;445064
How can something be a stand alone game if when I pick it up for the first time never having played Noblis, I don't know how to run it, and you don't bother to teach me?

It's probably reasonable to assume that the book still covers the basics on how the game plays out, just not in the extended form of a nine-part series of lessons for the GM as 2e did.
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: thedungeondelver on March 10, 2011, 10:44:03 AM
Quote from: StormBringer;445042
That is because you are a horrible, horrible person.  ;)


I have never denied it.

Quote

I am a big fan, and even I would have to agree with this assessment.  If they break 750-1000 in the next year, it would come as something of a surprise.


I recall hearing, around 2003 or so, that sales of 5000+ RPG books of any game other than D&D was an unqualified success.  I imagine that's much worse these days, and 1000 or so copies of their rules (regardless of who plays versus who just buys to look at) is a phenomenal amount of sales.
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: StormBringer on March 10, 2011, 10:53:21 AM
Quote from: thedungeondelver;445085
I recall hearing, around 2003 or so, that sales of 5000+ RPG books of any game other than D&D was an unqualified success.  I imagine that's much worse these days, and 1000 or so copies of their rules (regardless of who plays versus who just buys to look at) is a phenomenal amount of sales.
Those are about the same numbers I am familiar with, and Nobilis can be reasonably called a niche product, so the sales can be expected to be much less.  There are some harder-corer fans than myself that will buy it out of loyalty, however, so that will boost sales over a brand new product, in my opinion.
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: Rand Brittain on March 10, 2011, 01:52:12 PM
Quote from: GrimGent;445068
It's probably reasonable to assume that the book still covers the basics on how the game plays out, just not in the extended form of a nine-part series of lessons for the GM as 2e did.


Given how many people said they couldn't figure out what to do with it even with the nine-part series of explanations, it isn't surprising that people developed the impression that it was dead weight.
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: The Yann Waters on March 10, 2011, 05:52:08 PM
At least checking the table of contents at Drivethru (where the PDF is currently #6 on the "Hottest Items" list, by the way,  and #1 on "Hottest Small Press") definitely shows a fifteen-page section called "Let's Play a Game!"
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: J Arcane on March 10, 2011, 07:11:50 PM
I have enough trouble slogging through rulebooks as it is, I have no use for a game where I have to take an online fucking course, or even buy a whole seperate book, just to know what the hell I'm doing with it.
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: Rand Brittain on March 10, 2011, 07:28:39 PM
Quote from: J Arcane;445227
I have enough trouble slogging through rulebooks as it is, I have no use for a game where I have to take an online fucking course, or even buy a whole seperate book, just to know what the hell I'm doing with it.


So.... you're happy that this isn't one of those?
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: The Yann Waters on March 10, 2011, 07:32:36 PM
Quote from: J Arcane;445227
I have enough trouble slogging through rulebooks as it is, I have no use for a game where I have to take an online fucking course, or even buy a whole seperate book, just to know what the hell I'm doing with it.

Well, I've seen RPGs which flat-out expect the reader to have learned that by now. The Secret of Zir'An, for example, deliberately leaves out any kind of a "What Is Roleplaying?" section, because it was "created by gamers for gamers."
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: Pseudoephedrine on March 11, 2011, 04:25:46 AM
Nobilis is pretty simple to figure out, really. I find the problem is people importing too much high concept bullshit, rather than just playing the game.

The default set up is: You're gods who work for a bigger god, reality is under attack by alien gods, and the other gods who are supposed to be helping you deal with this shit are skivvers, fuckwits and chiselers. Along the way, you break the god rules, fuck with mortals, and try to outwit the enemy. Your reward is bragging rights.

Flowers and love and interior decorating only seem like important parts of the game.
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: RPGPundit on March 11, 2011, 12:03:50 PM
Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;445282
Nobilis is pretty simple to figure out, really. I find the problem is people importing too much high concept bullshit, rather than just playing the game.


If by "importing" you mean the author intentionally put this bullshit into the book in the first place, yes.


Quote

Flowers and love and interior decorating only seem like important parts of the game.


Only because borgstrom or moran or whatever-the-fuck wanted to make it seem incredibly important.

RPGPundit
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: Pseudoephedrine on March 11, 2011, 02:02:46 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit;445324
If by "importing" you mean the author intentionally put this bullshit into the book in the first place, yes.


Naw, most of what I see people bring to Nobilis is high-concept nonsense crap, whereas most of what Moran shoved in was Sandman pastiche. All those little asides in the margins are written in the same mix of zippy and portentous as Gaiman's work.

Quote
Only because borgstrom or moran or whatever-the-fuck wanted to make it seem incredibly important.

RPGPundit


Nobilis, IME, is kinda like Vampire, in that it tells you to play the game one way, and successful groups actually play it a totally different way. Nobilis wants to be the Sandman game and in reality it's mostly just a superhero game.
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: The Yann Waters on March 11, 2011, 05:40:37 PM
If memory serves, the information on heraldry and floral symbolism was largely left out of this Field Guide to the Powers, anyway, but it'll appear in the first announced "splat book", The Royalty of Heaven. That's apparently the first volume in a "Principles" line of supplements, just as this core is the first of "Essentials." (Chuubo's Marvelous Wish-Granting Engine, an alternative setting, should be the first of "Campaigns.")
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: RPGPundit on March 12, 2011, 10:35:09 AM
Gaiman was nothing but a more pretentious less talented version of Zelazny.

If Borgstrom is a far more pretentious far less talented version of Gaiman, then god help her.

That's the thing: Nobilis doesn't have any substance. Under the system, what you get is a whitebread bean-counting mechanic that offers nothing.  Under the setting, you get a ripoff of certain parts of Amber's ambiance utterly drowned in pseudo-intellectual artistic claptrap that gives itself orgasms over just how twee and flowery it can get. And the writing is entirely made up of creating walls of text that is intentionally as unreadable as possible to try to cover up for the fact that Borgstrom has no talent and little brains.  Then its all topped up with creating a culture around the game that tries to reward people for pretending that its something totally amazing and claiming that you're a special genius if you "get" the game and the people who don't are just poor saps.

Its "the emperor's new clothes" in RPG form.

RPGPundit
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: thedungeondelver on March 12, 2011, 04:06:55 PM
Here's my feeling on this and any other fantasy RPG: At it's base, can [GAME] support a dungeon crawl?  That is, can I, with a given ruleset without too much labor create a scenario whereby a group can cooperate on an area-to-area search through a haunted castle, underground caverns, forgotten ruins all in the name of fortune and glory?  

Now the glib reply might be "Oh psh well you can do that with any game!" No, I want to know if I can do it with [GAME] without having to reinvent the wheel to pull the whole thing off.

Obviously I can do this with Dungeons & Dragons (duh).  I can do it with Fantasy Hero.  I can do it with ... well the list of games I can dungeon crawl with is too lengthy to type out.  Hell, I can even do it with Exalted and Exalted is a terrible game.  

If I ask that of [GAME] and either fans or designers start in with words with wholly different meanings and raving about story and plot and romantic ache and all of that crap, then the game is bad and the designer should feel bad for creating that game.

"Well you just said there are lots of other systems that can do that, why not play one of those if that's all you want" is not a valid response, either.  That isn't "all I want".  I can play D&D with D&D and I can do other things with D&D too (things that ignorant people think the rules don't support).  I can use D&D to emulate Exalted - all the way back to original D&D.  Telling me [GAME] is better because it can't do the simplest of things (dungeon crawl) isn't a defense, it's a failing.

So with that said, can you dungeon crawl - easily, without having to rewrite the whole damn game - with Nobilis.
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: The Yann Waters on March 12, 2011, 04:42:13 PM
Quote from: thedungeondelver;445587
So with that said, can you dungeon crawl - easily, without having to rewrite the whole damn game - with Nobilis.

You can in 2e, certainly, as long as the scenario takes into account the sheer scope of what the PCs are, and I shouldn't imagine that the situation has changed that much in 3e.

Actually... That same topic, dungeon crawls in Nobilis, has cropped up a couple of times before on various forums, including here. A quick search turned up an example I used during the first discussion:

"A courteous visit to pay your respects to the lords and ladies of Aelfscienne before returning again to the more prosaic realms of the Earth: that was all you had reason to expect from tonight. The earthquake which sundered the royal hall in two during the grand gala was not in your itinerary.

The crimson miners of the Alfar had delved too deep, it seems, and far below the sunlit lands they awakened a tattered thing of flame and rage, bound there by the one called Cneph before ever history began. The seraphs and the devils, the honoured guests of the night's celebrations, dare not venture into the depths, for even from afar the undying beast whispers strangely to their hearts; and you have already heard the learned magisters of the court speculate about the Heresy of N'mosnikttiel, and the strangest flesh from which the Creator allegedly shaped the Host of Heaven after the stars had taken to the skies. Should this ancient remnant rise from its prison, they mutter in hushed tones, it would soon grow mightier and reclaim what once rightfully belonged to it. With a thousand faces torn from dead angels it would again chant words of destruction and devour one world after another until the flaming walls of the universe flickered out and nothing more than the void remained.

Times such as this, then, are the reason why you were once raised above common mortals and granted a modest measure of divinity. Tonight, your very humanity is what allows you to walk where angels fear to tread. Your powers pale in comparison with theirs, true, and the Estate entrusted to you is but small; but it too will burn with the rest of Creation unless you descend into the dark beneath the world where even miracles may gutter and fail, into the dungeons rendered sacrosanct by the breath of God himself when he pronounced his judgment on the horror.

To defend your Domain and Familia and Imperator, even if it will sear your soul to ashes?

That is the essence of Nobility.

It will suffice."
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: 1of3 on March 12, 2011, 05:55:51 PM
Quote from: thedungeondelver;445587
Here's my feeling on this and any other fantasy RPG: (...)


To be fair, you can't do dungeon crawling in Nobilis in a way that is similar to dungeon crawling in D&D. There are several differences:

- Characters are not usually limited by walls and stuff. Of course, you can use miraculous walls that hinder gods in a similar fashion as usual walls hinder mortals, but that might become an arms race really fast.

- Characters will be more intelligent than mere mortals, including you or their players. So you cannot give them riddles to solve as players. (If you consider riddles a usual part of dungeons.)

- Combat isn't particularly interesting, and characters might be effectively immortal unless certain conditions are met. So you can have a mistletoe trap to endanger Baldr, but there you have the arms race again.

- The only ones who can go toe to toe with the characters are other gods or similar creatures. The game doesn't expect such creatures to be cannon fodder.


Quote
"Well you just said there are lots of other systems that can do that, why not play one of those if that's all you want" is not a valid response, either. That isn't "all I want". I can play D&D with D&D and I can do other things with D&D too (things that ignorant people think the rules don't support).


You're right, of course. The valid argument, though, is the other way round: Why should people who do not care about dungeon crawls play D&D that devotes lots of space on such matters?
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: The Yann Waters on March 12, 2011, 07:05:40 PM
Quote from: 1of3;445612
- Characters will be more intelligent than mere mortals, including you or their players. So you cannot give them riddles to solve as players.

Well, that's not necessarily the case. Aspect explicitly enhances the "processing power" of the mind without granting strategic intelligence or original creativity beyond that of the players, so miraculously creating a perfect plan to solve a situation won't work. The group must first come up with their own courses of action, the execution of which then falls under Aspect. The most common type of a scenario for Nobilis, "the core story", is arguably investigating the mysteries behind Breakthroughs, and that simply can't be accomplished by an airy wave of the hand and a quick miracle to take care of everything. (Also, not every Noble holds a high rank in that particular attribute, and miracle points to improve the efforts tend to be in short supply.)

As for the rest, as said, the GM needs to keep the nature of the PCs in mind. An appropriate "dungeon" for beings of the Nobles' caliber isn't a hole in the ground with a few crude beasties and a chest of gold at the end of the tunnel. It's, for example, a hostile underground Chancel protected by the Defender's Blessing.
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: 1of3 on March 13, 2011, 03:32:02 AM
True. I was talking about "SPEAK FRIEND AND ENTER" kind of stuff. A noble can  use an aspect miracle to figure it out. Of course, many classical dungeons do not include things like that in the first place.
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: The Yann Waters on March 13, 2011, 05:31:46 AM
Quote from: 1of3;445659
True. I was talking about "SPEAK FRIEND AND ENTER" kind of stuff. A noble can  use an aspect miracle to figure it out. Of course, many classical dungeons do not include things like that in the first place.

The "Mellon" problem of Moria wouldn't really apply to Nobles under normal circumstances, anyway, since that was based on a mistranslation and they automatically understand all the languages in the world.

But to pull a well-known example from 2e, at one point in the sample campaign set-up the PCs are sent to bring back Polypheme, the Giant of Sicily, who's three hundred feet tall and won't submit to anyone smaller than himself. He's also said to be undefeatable in battle, although it's up to the GM to decide how true that actually is. So if the players want to accomplish this goal peacefully, they'll have to invent a way of making someone at least appear larger than the giant, and no "miracle of finding the solution although I have no idea how that's possible" will do that for them.
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: thedungeondelver on March 13, 2011, 08:29:27 PM
Anyway, thanks, as always for the input group.

In parting (from this thread) I would point out that a great many of the great AD&D modules are way, way more than "a dark hole in the ground with treasure in a room at the end" (or whatever was said).  Regardless of the physical challenges, stuff like finding Drelzna in S4, The Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun in WG4, dealing with Kezrit in WG5/Castle Maure, the crashed spaceship of S3, the Drow city in D3 and Lolth's fane in Q1 are all fairly highbrow situations that require more than LIGHT LAMP, GO NORTH and SWING SWORD (at the Troll).

:)
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: RPGPundit on September 10, 2012, 06:02:45 PM
Quote from: Ian Absentia;393099
Ho-hum.  Be sure to drop me a line when any one of them sees publication.

!i!

Consider the line dropped, bitch.  Lords of Olympus (http://www.pigames.net/store/default.php?cPath=113) is now available for purchase, and I win again.

RPGPundit
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: One Horse Town on September 12, 2012, 05:45:25 AM
At RPGnow, i notice that people who bought LoO also bought Nobilis.
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: Panjumanju on September 12, 2012, 12:27:32 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit;581558
Consider the line dropped, bitch.  Lords of Olympus (http://www.pigames.net/store/default.php?cPath=113) is now available for purchase, and I win again.

RPGPundit


I'm glad you found the thread.

//Panjumanju
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: Bill on September 12, 2012, 02:50:18 PM
If Nobilis and Lords of Olympus fought, who would win?


More seriously, Where is my Lords of ASGARD?

I like Norse the best, but Greek is ok.
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: Anon Adderlan on September 12, 2012, 05:32:02 PM
Quote from: One Horse Town;581875
At RPGnow, i notice that people who bought LoO also bought Nobilis.
:rotfl:
(*though this tiny smiley seems so inadequate for what I'm feeling*)

Also, WHO'S SIDE ARE YOU ON?!?!?
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: RPGPundit on September 12, 2012, 10:55:55 PM
Quote from: Bill;581960

More seriously, Where is my Lords of ASGARD?

I like Norse the best, but Greek is ok.


Well... you never know...

RPGPundit
Title: Nobilis, Third Edition
Post by: RPGPundit on September 12, 2012, 10:56:26 PM
Quote from: One Horse Town;581875
At RPGnow, i notice that people who bought LoO also bought Nobilis.

Probably in reverse order, given how recent LoO went up for sale. It'll be a big step up for them, then!

RPGPundit