If memory serves, the information on heraldry and floral symbolism was largely left out of this Field Guide to the Powers, anyway, but it'll appear in the first announced "splat book", The Royalty of Heaven. That's apparently the first volume in a "Principles" line of supplements, just as this core is the first of "Essentials." (Chuubo's Marvelous Wish-Granting Engine, an alternative setting, should be the first of "Campaigns.")

Gaiman was nothing but a more pretentious less talented version of Zelazny.

If Borgstrom is a far more pretentious far less talented version of Gaiman, then god help her.

That's the thing: Nobilis doesn't have any substance. Under the system, what you get is a whitebread bean-counting mechanic that offers nothing.  Under the setting, you get a ripoff of certain parts of Amber's ambiance utterly drowned in pseudo-intellectual artistic claptrap that gives itself orgasms over just how twee and flowery it can get. And the writing is entirely made up of creating walls of text that is intentionally as unreadable as possible to try to cover up for the fact that Borgstrom has no talent and little brains.  Then its all topped up with creating a culture around the game that tries to reward people for pretending that its something totally amazing and claiming that you're a special genius if you "get" the game and the people who don't are just poor saps.

Its "the emperor's new clothes" in RPG form.

RPGPundit

Here's my feeling on this and any other fantasy RPG: At it's base, can [GAME] support a dungeon crawl?  That is, can I, with a given ruleset without too much labor create a scenario whereby a group can cooperate on an area-to-area search through a haunted castle, underground caverns, forgotten ruins all in the name of fortune and glory?  

Now the glib reply might be "Oh psh well you can do that with any game!" No, I want to know if I can do it with [GAME] without having to reinvent the wheel to pull the whole thing off.

Obviously I can do this with Dungeons & Dragons (duh).  I can do it with Fantasy Hero.  I can do it with ... well the list of games I can dungeon crawl with is too lengthy to type out.  Hell, I can even do it with Exalted and Exalted is a terrible game.  

If I ask that of [GAME] and either fans or designers start in with words with wholly different meanings and raving about story and plot and romantic ache and all of that crap, then the game is bad and the designer should feel bad for creating that game.

"Well you just said there are lots of other systems that can do that, why not play one of those if that's all you want" is not a valid response, either.  That isn't "all I want".  I can play D&D with D&D and I can do other things with D&D too (things that ignorant people think the rules don't support).  I can use D&D to emulate Exalted - all the way back to original D&D.  Telling me [GAME] is better because it can't do the simplest of things (dungeon crawl) isn't a defense, it's a failing.

So with that said, can you dungeon crawl - easily, without having to rewrite the whole damn game - with Nobilis.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;445587So with that said, can you dungeon crawl - easily, without having to rewrite the whole damn game - with Nobilis.

You can in 2e, certainly, as long as the scenario takes into account the sheer scope of what the PCs are, and I shouldn't imagine that the situation has changed that much in 3e.

Actually... That same topic, dungeon crawls in Nobilis, has cropped up a couple of times before on various forums, including here. A quick search turned up an example I used during the first discussion:

"A courteous visit to pay your respects to the lords and ladies of Aelfscienne before returning again to the more prosaic realms of the Earth: that was all you had reason to expect from tonight. The earthquake which sundered the royal hall in two during the grand gala was not in your itinerary.

The crimson miners of the Alfar had delved too deep, it seems, and far below the sunlit lands they awakened a tattered thing of flame and rage, bound there by the one called Cneph before ever history began. The seraphs and the devils, the honoured guests of the night's celebrations, dare not venture into the depths, for even from afar the undying beast whispers strangely to their hearts; and you have already heard the learned magisters of the court speculate about the Heresy of N'mosnikttiel, and the strangest flesh from which the Creator allegedly shaped the Host of Heaven after the stars had taken to the skies. Should this ancient remnant rise from its prison, they mutter in hushed tones, it would soon grow mightier and reclaim what once rightfully belonged to it. With a thousand faces torn from dead angels it would again chant words of destruction and devour one world after another until the flaming walls of the universe flickered out and nothing more than the void remained.

Times such as this, then, are the reason why you were once raised above common mortals and granted a modest measure of divinity. Tonight, your very humanity is what allows you to walk where angels fear to tread. Your powers pale in comparison with theirs, true, and the Estate entrusted to you is but small; but it too will burn with the rest of Creation unless you descend into the dark beneath the world where even miracles may gutter and fail, into the dungeons rendered sacrosanct by the breath of God himself when he pronounced his judgment on the horror.

To defend your Domain and Familia and Imperator, even if it will sear your soul to ashes?

That is the essence of Nobility.

It will suffice."

Quote from: thedungeondelver;445587Here's my feeling on this and any other fantasy RPG: (...)

To be fair, you can't do dungeon crawling in Nobilis in a way that is similar to dungeon crawling in D&D. There are several differences:

- Characters are not usually limited by walls and stuff. Of course, you can use miraculous walls that hinder gods in a similar fashion as usual walls hinder mortals, but that might become an arms race really fast.

- Characters will be more intelligent than mere mortals, including you or their players. So you cannot give them riddles to solve as players. (If you consider riddles a usual part of dungeons.)

- Combat isn't particularly interesting, and characters might be effectively immortal unless certain conditions are met. So you can have a mistletoe trap to endanger Baldr, but there you have the arms race again.

- The only ones who can go toe to toe with the characters are other gods or similar creatures. The game doesn't expect such creatures to be cannon fodder.

Quote"Well you just said there are lots of other systems that can do that, why not play one of those if that's all you want" is not a valid response, either. That isn't "all I want". I can play D&D with D&D and I can do other things with D&D too (things that ignorant people think the rules don't support).

You're right, of course. The valid argument, though, is the other way round: Why should people who do not care about dungeon crawls play D&D that devotes lots of space on such matters?

Quote from: 1of3;445612- Characters will be more intelligent than mere mortals, including you or their players. So you cannot give them riddles to solve as players.

Well, that's not necessarily the case. Aspect explicitly enhances the "processing power" of the mind without granting strategic intelligence or original creativity beyond that of the players, so miraculously creating a perfect plan to solve a situation won't work. The group must first come up with their own courses of action, the execution of which then falls under Aspect. The most common type of a scenario for Nobilis, "the core story", is arguably investigating the mysteries behind Breakthroughs, and that simply can't be accomplished by an airy wave of the hand and a quick miracle to take care of everything. (Also, not every Noble holds a high rank in that particular attribute, and miracle points to improve the efforts tend to be in short supply.)

As for the rest, as said, the GM needs to keep the nature of the PCs in mind. An appropriate "dungeon" for beings of the Nobles' caliber isn't a hole in the ground with a few crude beasties and a chest of gold at the end of the tunnel. It's, for example, a hostile underground Chancel protected by the Defender's Blessing.

True. I was talking about "SPEAK FRIEND AND ENTER" kind of stuff. A noble can  use an aspect miracle to figure it out. Of course, many classical dungeons do not include things like that in the first place.

Quote from: 1of3;445659True. I was talking about "SPEAK FRIEND AND ENTER" kind of stuff. A noble can  use an aspect miracle to figure it out. Of course, many classical dungeons do not include things like that in the first place.

The "Mellon" problem of Moria wouldn't really apply to Nobles under normal circumstances, anyway, since that was based on a mistranslation and they automatically understand all the languages in the world.

But to pull a well-known example from 2e, at one point in the sample campaign set-up the PCs are sent to bring back Polypheme, the Giant of Sicily, who's three hundred feet tall and won't submit to anyone smaller than himself. He's also said to be undefeatable in battle, although it's up to the GM to decide how true that actually is. So if the players want to accomplish this goal peacefully, they'll have to invent a way of making someone at least appear larger than the giant, and no "miracle of finding the solution although I have no idea how that's possible" will do that for them.

Anyway, thanks, as always for the input group.

In parting (from this thread) I would point out that a great many of the great AD&D modules are way, way more than "a dark hole in the ground with treasure in a room at the end" (or whatever was said).  Regardless of the physical challenges, stuff like finding Drelzna in S4, The Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun in WG4, dealing with Kezrit in WG5/Castle Maure, the crashed spaceship of S3, the Drow city in D3 and Lolth's fane in Q1 are all fairly highbrow situations that require more than LIGHT LAMP, GO NORTH and SWING SWORD (at the Troll).

Quote from: Ian Absentia;393099Ho-hum.  Be sure to drop me a line when any one of them sees publication.

!i!

Consider the line dropped, bitch.  Lords of Olympus is now available for purchase, and I win again.

RPGPundit

At RPGnow, i notice that people who bought LoO also bought Nobilis.

Quote from: RPGPundit;581558Consider the line dropped, bitch.  Lords of Olympus is now available for purchase, and I win again.

RPGPundit

I'm glad you found the thread.

//Panjumanju

If Nobilis and Lords of Olympus fought, who would win?


More seriously, Where is my Lords of ASGARD?

I like Norse the best, but Greek is ok.

Quote from: One Horse Town;581875At RPGnow, i notice that people who bought LoO also bought Nobilis.

:rotfl:
(*though this tiny smiley seems so inadequate for what I'm feeling*)

Also, WHO'S SIDE ARE YOU ON?!?!?

Quote from: Bill;581960More seriously, Where is my Lords of ASGARD?

I like Norse the best, but Greek is ok.

Well... you never know...

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