Quote from: jhkim on June 02, 2021, 06:40:06 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on June 02, 2021, 05:56:28 PM

Quote from: Simon Fiasco on June 02, 2021, 10:28:09 AM
As soon as a singular one exists, it shows that the people of the race have free will, that they can choose between Good and Evil, pretty much guaranteeing that a monoculture simply cannot abide.

That is only true if you discount Drizzt having some kind of mental condition and or brain damage.

Once Gygax published Unearthed Arcana in 1985, it was official that drow could be PCs and they could be of any alignment.

Being a PC is, by definition, a mental condition.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on June 02, 2021, 07:50:42 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on June 02, 2021, 07:15:08 PM

Quote from: TJS on June 02, 2021, 03:08:56 AM

Quote from: Simon Fiasco on June 02, 2021, 02:33:10 AM
Am I the only one who...

• ... is an old school gamer...
• ... leans politically incorrect, and...
• ... still had an issue with evil monocultures?

Serious question. Drow always bugged me because it never made sense for a whole race to be evil. Drizzt always bugged me because it never made sense that there was only one good drow. The idea that there are other good drow out there actually makes them make a whole lot more sense in my eyes.

Am I really the only one?

No.  Not really.  Once you have the possiblity that a Drow can be 'not evil' then they cease to make any real sense at all.  They only really make sense if they're fey creatures who think in a fundamentally different way than humans.

Precisely. The entire problem comes from the banality of thinking that non-human races would think like humans think.

Well, that depends on how 'nonhuman' we're talking here.

Let me remind you that both elves AND orcs can crossbreed with humans, so their 'nonhumanity' might be up for debate.

Now, that being said, it's very tricky to get around anthropocentrist thinking. My go to for 'looks like a human but DOES NOT think like one' is ironically dwarves. Typically, they live in close quarter conditions -- privacy is -rare- in dwarven cities. As a result they tend to internalize stresses. I like to draw a page from Discworld; dwarves generally voice concerns by writing them on communal walls. Sometimes anonymous, sometimes not.

It's virtually impossible to get around humanocentric thinking. That's why portrayals of genuinely alien psychology are so rare. Often those portrayals decay as stories go on until they become funny-looking humans.

Quote from: RPGPundit on June 02, 2021, 07:15:08 PM

Quote from: TJS on June 02, 2021, 03:08:56 AM
No.  Not really.  Once you have the possiblity that a Drow can be 'not evil' then they cease to make any real sense at all.  They only really make sense if they're fey creatures who think in a fundamentally different way than humans.

Precisely. The entire problem comes from the banality of thinking that non-human races would think like humans think.

There is certainly a divide - where some people just think of elves as "dextrous humans" and half-orcs are "strong humans" as if that is the main difference, which to many people it is. Others try to emphasize more essential differences instead.

I think there's room for having non-human races just as stand-ins for humans, as well as having some non-human races that are truly alien. It's just a style difference.

Quote from: RPGPundit on June 02, 2021, 07:15:08 PM

Quote from: TJS on June 02, 2021, 03:08:56 AM

Quote from: Simon Fiasco on June 02, 2021, 02:33:10 AM
Am I the only one who...

• ... is an old school gamer...
• ... leans politically incorrect, and...
• ... still had an issue with evil monocultures?

Serious question. Drow always bugged me because it never made sense for a whole race to be evil. Drizzt always bugged me because it never made sense that there was only one good drow. The idea that there are other good drow out there actually makes them make a whole lot more sense in my eyes.

Am I really the only one?

No.  Not really.  Once you have the possiblity that a Drow can be 'not evil' then they cease to make any real sense at all.  They only really make sense if they're fey creatures who think in a fundamentally different way than humans.

Precisely. The entire problem comes from the banality of thinking that non-human races would think like humans think.

They can, but the similarities to humans means they wouldn't be too alien in their thoughts. Unless they're completely alien and they only appear humanoid due to some fay glamour or whatever, in which case anything goes.

Quote from: David Johansen on June 02, 2021, 08:30:25 PM

Quote from: Reckall on June 02, 2021, 09:50:40 AM

The simple presence of Eilistraee, the Goddess of Good Drows proves that they do exist

Is her primary function being Loth's foot stool or chair?

No, but she also doesn't fight Lolth (who is her mother BTW). Eilistraee acts as "a beacon of hope" for those drows who decide to renounce their evil ways and, of course, constantly fights an uphill battle.

She was defeated during 4E's dark age of stupidity by the "handwave" superior spell ("The Power of the "Because" expels you!!") and disappeared, but with 5E she returned and was reinstated in the FR pantheon.

Quote from: Simon Fiasco on June 02, 2021, 02:33:10 AM

• ... still had an issue with evil monocultures?

Serious question. Drow always bugged me because it never made sense for a whole race to be evil. Drizzt always bugged me because it never made sense that there was only one good drow. The idea that there are other good drow out there actually makes them make a whole lot more sense in my eyes.

Am I really the only one?

Aside from the woke? Maybe? heh.

Drow are the product of a divine curse and/or the influence of a crazy elven goddess. They make perfect sense in that context. They were all evil because they are literally infused with evil from a GOD. But eventually the door was opened up to the rare non-evil drow who were essentially shielded from Lolth by another elven goddess who is essentially fucking with Lolth. I am not sure where that originated though Forgotten Realms? Feels FR.

Also its been established that drow that get out and about more have a higher tendency to mellow a little, or alot. They might still be bad. But they are their own person rather than just another fly in Lolth's web.

And honestly the idea of some relatively obscure goddess fucking with Lolth is hilarious and makes total sense. She is essentially Satan corrupting Lolth's creations.

Honestly, the worst thing about the Drow is that you have his concept for evil elf-fey creatures, and it's always fucking Lolth and fucking spiders.

When Gygax originally wrote them it was "what the fuck are these things they're weird and cool".

Now it's "Oh Drow, I know all about those guys because they're always the same.  They're totally predictable".

There were a few modules way back that showed different drow. One I liked was a drow colony living on the surface and working to corrupt a a forest and live in trees. Not sure if they were still spider obsessed or not. Would have to dig it out. Odds are theres more in Dungeon magazine.

Quote from: Omega on June 03, 2021, 07:09:09 AM
There were a few modules way back that showed different drow. One I liked was a drow colony living on the surface and working to corrupt a a forest and live in trees. Not sure if they were still spider obsessed or not. Would have to dig it out. Odds are theres more in Dungeon magazine.

"Forest of Doom" in Dragon #73 was pretty good, but the drow in the adventure weren't different in any real sense. The outpost in the forest was just the forward base of a noble house, who were raiding the surface to gain an advantage in the internecine battles below.

Quote from: Omega on June 03, 2021, 06:37:14 AM
And honestly the idea of some relatively obscure goddess fucking with Lolth is hilarious and makes total sense. She is essentially Satan corrupting Lolth's creations.

She is the daughter of Lolth and Corellon Larethian, the very creator of the Elves. Don't ask me how this happened: I never intruded in their private lives.

Anyway, Eilistraee got the best of both worlds: the Drow nature from her mother and the Chaotic Good alignment from her father. She gave the finger to Lolth and became the aforementioned "beacon of hope" for the drow.

(Wagging tongues affirm that this happened after Eilistraee watched "The Return of the Jedi" and pirated the famous exchange:

"Your thoughts betray you! I feel the good in you, the conflict!"

"There is no conflict."

"You couldn't bring yourself to kill me before and I don't believe you'll destroy me now."

"You underestimate the power of the Dark Side. If you will not fight, then you will meet your destiny.")

...If so, it will be no wonder if she ends up like Luke in "The Last Jedi" 

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper on May 27, 2021, 10:34:32 AM"Photo negatives of Tolkien's elves meets KISS."

That description is far cooler than any depiction of Drow I've ever seen.

QuoteShe is the daughter of Lolth and Corellon Larethian, the very creator of the Elves. Don't ask me how this happened: I never intruded in their private lives.

If I remember correctly Lolth was previously CG as proper elven goddess, but throw some fit about which of elven subraces is best, or maybe she was cranky about all this triangle with Sehanine, anyway she felt from grace into Abyss, and rebuilt herself from Demon Lady to Goddess proper.

Generally I'd say elves of Faerun are presented quite human-ey at least in this degree they are you know mortal though long lived beings with free will and ability to have own moral choices, so I'm generally quite OK with at least few promiles leaving influence of Lloth and her cronies.

Now of course to point to TJS and Pundit's notion about utterly alien non-human faeries, I'd say that maybe Gygax was planning to base his demihumans over Anderson's fairies, but ultimately Tolkien elves who are close kin to mankind after all took over.

Didn't Lolth and the drow get literally cursed with black skin by Corellon as a physical mark of their evil?

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on June 05, 2021, 09:21:19 PM
Didn't Lolth and the drow get literally cursed with black skin by Corellon as a physical mark of their evil?

This was true in at least one earlier version of the telling. The 5e version is in Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes, but I can't recall if/how it differs from that.

I think in some versions the dark skin is a blessing from Lolth. What other elves, and non-elves even, might consider a curse.

Pretty much the same thing with the Shadukar elves. Elven sorceress or goddess tries to fix some problem or become a goddess, something happens and she ends up blasted into fragments barely held together and those loyal to her were drawn into the shadow realm and changed.

Pretty standard fantasy and folklore theme of followers of whatever being transformed in ways small or large. To the followers its a gift. To those outside eeeeeh maybe not so much a gift.