Quote from: Simon Fiasco on June 02, 2021, 02:33:10 AM
Serious question. Drow always bugged me because it never made sense for a whole race to be evil. Drizzt always bugged me because it never made sense that there was only one good drow. The idea that there are other good drow out there actually makes them make a whole lot more sense in my eyes.

Am I really the only one?

The simple presence of Eilistraee, the Goddess of Good Drows proves that they do exist (one of the strongest theories offered by Planescape is that without faithfuls a God disappears). In my longest running campaign I had a good drow NPC as an undercover agent among the drows during the fall of Myth Drannor. She helped the PCs and died when she was able to distract the attention of a red dragon while they were fleeing (I actually played the battle, with the players acting like the supporters of a soccer club in a big match and throwing suggestions - but actually there wasn't much to do for her).

Three sessions in a thirteen years campaign, and she is still fondly remembered. So, yes, there are good drows (and good orcs) and, if used with intelligence, they can be memorable.

(Something I was never able to pull was a big battle, up North in the FR, with, out of the blue, the whole army of the good orcs appearing on their steeds, basically copying the Rohirrim in the movie version of the Return of the King. And then they charge. It would be an AWESOME way to underline that, yup, there are good orcs - exp. if some Woke-mind is at the table...)

Quote from: Simon Fiasco on June 02, 2021, 02:33:10 AM
Am I the only one who...

• ... is an old school gamer...
• ... leans politically incorrect, and...
• ... still had an issue with evil monocultures?

Serious question. Drow always bugged me because it never made sense for a whole race to be evil. Drizzt always bugged me because it never made sense that there was only one good drow. The idea that there are other good drow out there actually makes them make a whole lot more sense in my eyes.

Am I really the only one?

I doubt you're the only one!

For me it's a matter of Evil (capital 'E', a la Evil Dead) existing in the world or not. I find a large part of the point of fantasy in general to be based on a clear archetypal divide between Good and Evil. As for a "whole race," it depends on the race. Are you OK with all Demons being evil? I am, because that's what a "demon" is: it's a representation of the archetype of an evil being. Are Drow any different? Certainly in your world Drow might be morally ambiguous, but there's nothing inherent in the word "Drow" that prevents them from being -- just like Demons -- a simple fantasy representation of archetypal evil in a game world.

So for me it boils down to whether or not you're OK with archetypal evil and good as concepts to explore. If so, you'll need a representation of that evil for game purposes. If not, then fantasy may not be the best genre fit.

Quote from: Zalman on June 02, 2021, 10:08:08 AMI doubt you're the only one!

For me it's a matter of Evil (capital 'E', a la Evil Dead) existing in the world or not. I find a large part of the point of fantasy in general to be based on a clear archetypal divide between Good and Evil. As for a "whole race," it depends on the race. Are you OK with all Demons being evil? I am, because that's what a "demon" is: it's a representation of the archetype of an evil being. Are Drow any different? Certainly in your world Drow might be morally ambiguous, but there's nothing inherent in the word "Drow" that prevents them from being -- just like Demons -- a simple fantasy representation of archetypal evil in a game world.

So for me it boils down to whether or not you're OK with archetypal evil and good as concepts to explore. If so, you'll need a representation of that evil for game purposes. If not, then fantasy may not be the best genre fit.

I am very much okay with the idea of a clear divide between Good and Evil. Just as demons are unambiguously Evil, angels (or their D&D equivalent) are unambiguously Good. But when it comes to a sentient temporal race, cousins to other sentient temporal races who aren't monocultures (high elves, wood elves, etc.), it seems odd to me to make a whole people Evil with a capital E, especially given that we know one non-Evil member of the society exists. As soon as a singular one exists, it shows that the people of the race have free will, that they can choose between Good and Evil, pretty much guaranteeing that a monoculture simply cannot abide.

For drow to be, like demons, an example of archetypal Evil in a game world, they should be unambiguously so. That means no singular member (like Drizzt Do'Urden) gets to break the mold. Once that happens, once the mold is broken, the narrative must change.

So I guess for my part, I'm glad to see other types of drow out there. It makes the race more interesting and realistic for me.

Quote from: Simon Fiasco on June 02, 2021, 02:33:10 AM
Am I the only one who...

• ... is an old school gamer...
• ... leans politically incorrect, and...
• ... still had an issue with evil monocultures?

Serious question. Drow always bugged me because it never made sense for a whole race to be evil. Drizzt always bugged me because it never made sense that there was only one good drow. The idea that there are other good drow out there actually makes them make a whole lot more sense in my eyes.

Am I really the only one?

I've never liked a monolithic culture for any nonhuman race, Drow included.  It's more interesting to have different nations, tribes, etc. among Drow, Elves, Dwarfs, and whatnot.

Quote from: Zalman on June 02, 2021, 10:08:08 AM

I doubt you're the only one!

For me it's a matter of Evil (capital 'E', a la Evil Dead) existing in the world or not. I find a large part of the point of fantasy in general to be based on a clear archetypal divide between Good and Evil. As for a "whole race," it depends on the race. Are you OK with all Demons being evil? I am, because that's what a "demon" is: it's a representation of the archetype of an evil being. Are Drow any different? Certainly in your world Drow might be morally ambiguous, but there's nothing inherent in the word "Drow" that prevents them from being -- just like Demons -- a simple fantasy representation of archetypal evil in a game world.

So for me it boils down to whether or not you're OK with archetypal evil and good as concepts to explore. If so, you'll need a representation of that evil for game purposes. If not, then fantasy may not be the best genre fit.

Well, the default drow personality as usually presented is a mix of amoral and sociopath, which in D&D is probably chaotic evil more often than not.

From the very beginning, I've always understood that was what alignment meant in context.  If it was a supernatural, planar creature, it might be in its nature (e.g. not free willed).  It it were a "prime material" or standard plane, however, then the alignment was the default given the typical, expected culture.  Take away that assumption, and alignment could be anything, for a culture or an individual.  I believe this is even spelled out in the 1st ed. DMG, though I can't cite a page.

The problem here isn't so much 'good drow' (or other race). There's plenty of precedent for outliers and iconoclasts going all the way back to 2E.

The problem (twofold) is that the wokeists are standing around congratulating themselves (and sneering at us unwashed heathens) for something they didn't even come up with originally. They are way fucking late to the party.

The second half of this problem is the attempt to rewrite these races into something 'correct' and non-problematic. I like the arguments against monoculture a lot more than the sniveling over how drow or orcs shouldn't be evil. At least it's internally consistent.

In the case of drow, I think that the bigger issue is that so many SJW's were uncomfortably identifying with the old way that drow were portrayed.  In their occasional honest moments.  That is, it struck a little too close to home for them.

In my own games I don't use alignment.

That being said I understand the things people like about alignment. One problem is that there's really no distinction between the cosmic-level conception of alignment and boots-on-the-ground good & evil. Since D&D has never unambiguously delineated what alignment means, you're fighting against the unspoken assumptions of all your players unless you lay out how you plan on using (or not-using) alignment explicitly.

I personally tend to prefer low-fantasy games. If a truly evil demonic entity passes into the world, that's a campaign-climax event, not encounter 3B of the dungeon. That's the easy part, but then you must contend with the laundry-list of spells, magic items, class features that D&D has ...

Quote from: Simon Fiasco on June 02, 2021, 10:28:09 AM
As soon as a singular one exists, it shows that the people of the race have free will, that they can choose between Good and Evil, pretty much guaranteeing that a monoculture simply cannot abide.

That is only true if you discount Drizzt having some kind of mental condition and or brain damage.

Quote from: Shasarak on June 02, 2021, 05:56:28 PM

Quote from: Simon Fiasco on June 02, 2021, 10:28:09 AM
As soon as a singular one exists, it shows that the people of the race have free will, that they can choose between Good and Evil, pretty much guaranteeing that a monoculture simply cannot abide.

That is only true if you discount Drizzt having some kind of mental condition and or brain damage.

Once Gygax published Unearthed Arcana in 1985, it was official that drow could be PCs and they could be of any alignment.

Quote from: TJS on June 02, 2021, 03:08:56 AM

Quote from: Simon Fiasco on June 02, 2021, 02:33:10 AM
Am I the only one who...

• ... is an old school gamer...
• ... leans politically incorrect, and...
• ... still had an issue with evil monocultures?

Serious question. Drow always bugged me because it never made sense for a whole race to be evil. Drizzt always bugged me because it never made sense that there was only one good drow. The idea that there are other good drow out there actually makes them make a whole lot more sense in my eyes.

Am I really the only one?

No.  Not really.  Once you have the possiblity that a Drow can be 'not evil' then they cease to make any real sense at all.  They only really make sense if they're fey creatures who think in a fundamentally different way than humans.

Precisely. The entire problem comes from the banality of thinking that non-human races would think like humans think.

Quote from: Simon Fiasco on June 02, 2021, 10:28:09 AMBut when it comes to a sentient temporal race, cousins to other sentient temporal races who aren't monocultures (high elves, wood elves, etc.), it seems odd to me to make a whole people Evil with a capital E, especially given that we know one non-Evil member of the society exists. As soon as a singular one exists, it shows that the people of the race have free will, that they can choose between Good and Evil, pretty much guaranteeing that a monoculture simply cannot abide.

That there's exceptions doesn't mean monoculture can't exist. Real offshoot cultures require a certain critical mass of population to exist at all, and ought to actually have a reason for existing besides fake guilt over characterizing fictional groups. (After all, Drow are already the exception to the rule for Elves.)

It isn't unreasonable to imagine an evil Elf culture is the only type of society with harsh values suited to surviving in the Underdark. Deviating from that culture is basically a death sentence (whether by execution or exile), and people in fantasy-styled settings generally ought to be more aligned with their general cultural customs & mores. Even if you assume a regular outflow of a few defectors, there's very little guarantee these exiles could coalesce into their own groups, carve out their own territory, and form a permanent settlement.

What does monoculture even mean in this context? The dark elven cultures in both Greyhawk and the Forgotten Realms have each been almost entirely defined by a single city, which are both as diverse as you can reasonably expect.

Quote from: RPGPundit on June 02, 2021, 07:15:08 PM

Quote from: TJS on June 02, 2021, 03:08:56 AM

Quote from: Simon Fiasco on June 02, 2021, 02:33:10 AM
Am I the only one who...

• ... is an old school gamer...
• ... leans politically incorrect, and...
• ... still had an issue with evil monocultures?

Serious question. Drow always bugged me because it never made sense for a whole race to be evil. Drizzt always bugged me because it never made sense that there was only one good drow. The idea that there are other good drow out there actually makes them make a whole lot more sense in my eyes.

Am I really the only one?

No.  Not really.  Once you have the possiblity that a Drow can be 'not evil' then they cease to make any real sense at all.  They only really make sense if they're fey creatures who think in a fundamentally different way than humans.

Precisely. The entire problem comes from the banality of thinking that non-human races would think like humans think.

Well, that depends on how 'nonhuman' we're talking here.

Let me remind you that both elves AND orcs can crossbreed with humans, so their 'nonhumanity' might be up for debate.

Now, that being said, it's very tricky to get around anthropocentrist thinking. My go to for 'looks like a human but DOES NOT think like one' is ironically dwarves. Typically, they live in close quarter conditions -- privacy is -rare- in dwarven cities. As a result they tend to internalize stresses. I like to draw a page from Discworld; dwarves generally voice concerns by writing them on communal walls. Sometimes anonymous, sometimes not.

Quote from: Reckall on June 02, 2021, 09:50:40 AM

The simple presence of Eilistraee, the Goddess of Good Drows proves that they do exist

Is her primary function being Loth's foot stool or chair?